Proof God created evil

[Bible Highlighter]

Who says it would be wrong? You? Your conscience--at best--only tells you what would be wrong for you. In fact, your conscience cannot even tell you what is wrong for any other person (Romans 14), so certainly it cannot tell you what would be wrong for God.

Does scripture say somewhere that it would be wrong? Does scripture say that God has never created something evil? In fact, it says the opposite.

If God did it, it would not be wrong, it would be Godly.

Uh, Peter seems to think that believer can have knowledge of the way of righteousness (2 Peter 2:21). Paul says that if any man speak contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). In order to not speak contrary to Godliness, one would have to know about Godliness. John says "he that does righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7). Does not one have to know about righteousnes in order to do it? This all tells us that a believer can know about such a thing as right and wrong.


...

 

[RDKirk]

Uh, Peter seems to think that believer can have knowledge of the way of righteousness (2 Peter 2:21). Paul says that if any man speak contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). In order to not speak contrary to Godliness, one would have to know about Godliness. John says "he that does righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7). Does not one have to know about righteousnes in order to do it? This all tells us that a believer can know about such a thing as right and wrong.


...

No, Peter does not say you know righteousness in yourself, Peter says:

to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

IOW, righteousness was in God's command, not in their own knowledge.

 

[angela4God]

Evil is not a being

Evil is not an entity

I agree, that is correct. Somehow you misread my post.

A Blessed Christmas to all!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, Peter does not say you know righteousness in yourself, Peter says:

to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

IOW, righteousness was in God's command, not in their own knowledge.

You are not making any sense.
What is the holy commandment?
1 John 3:23 commands us to believe on Jesus and to love our neighbor. That is basic as it gets so as to initially get right with GOD. To do righteousness means you have to know about righteousness in order to do it. To suggest otherwise is illogical.

If you were to study the topic of holiness or righteousness of the saints, you would see that righteousness is more than just the imputation of Christ when we repent and believe on Him. The saints actually did things that were right and good so as to be called saints. For it is an oxymorn to say that a person is currently a sinning saint. Jesus says we will know a tree by it's fruits. Fruits are deeds according to the Bible. If you bring forth good fruit you are of GOD. If you bring forth good fruit, you have an awareness of good and evil.


...

 

[John 1720]

The problem is that all that thankfully nice stuff is in the New Testament. In the Old, God did command to kill and destroy.

Well we weren't actually there to see the evil that was being propagated when God decided to flood the earth and rescue the few. Nor when He stated that the land itself would vomit up the human sacrificing murderers that dwelled there. I simply don't pretend to understand all the "why did God do this or that" within the Bible or think myself righteous enough to be God's Monday morning quarterback. I do, however, see that studying history in context with the Bible is a valuable asset in understanding the context of the times. I also do see His plan to save people represented by every ethnic groups upon the earth. Lastly I do know Christ died for me, as well as you, and He did it for the love of us all, trusting in the Father's love for us all and His plan of redemption.
Historically we have witnessed many atrocities of man's inhumanity to man. Edmund Burke stated that:

All evil needs in order to triumph over us is for good men to do nothing

Would it have been right for us to not fight back against Hitler because it resulted in was You may get different answers on that depending on who you ask but if you were a holocaust victim it might give you a different perspective because they were there while others were not. What about witnessing human and child sacrifice? Would that perhaps stir us into action? If we are horrified by the actions made visible to us on the 6 O'clock news, what aboy God who sees all? If we did not have a police force we would quickly devolve into anarchy and who would protect us against the onslaught we see in so many corrupt nations. Would we stand idly by or take action to restore law and order by force if necessary? One may take a pontifical view until they are immersed in that particular situation. The New Testament holds the fuller revelation of who God is rather than the historical books of the old. Neither one, however, try to hide the problem of sin in the world. That said it is hard to miss the love of God in the fulfillment of Christ and the unveiling of God's love for the world of lost sinners.

Also, Satan was only seen as the deceiver and ruler of all evil, again, in the New Testament. Not so in the Old.

Could you please expand on that? I don't want to comment unless I know exactly what you mean.

And some don't try to deceive, but really think they are doing God's work even if it's a terrible thing. That's not deceiving others, that's being misguided themselves and others seeing them as having a mental disorder.

The self-deceived are still within the set domain of deceivers. If you are self-deceived then you are still spreading and propagating lies as well as deceiving others. If one belongs to this class they are still responsible for their actions before a Holy God who gave us the ten commandments and a conscience.

And seeing evil may cause a desire to be delivered from it, but it seems the secular countries are the ones that have less crime and less evil.

Really? What is your statistical basis for making that assumption? It certainly flies in the face of experience I have been privy to. I used to do prison ministry for years and the recidivism rates for those who became Christian in prison were significantly lower for Christians - actually about 4 times less. I believe that had a lot to do with the Chaplain, a very godly man to be sure. One time the team arrived to witness more than 2 dozen baptisms in the courtyard. He was recognized for his ability to impact recidivism rates by several secular organizations. That was a pretty controlled statistical sampling that I myself was privy too. But there are others which show similar stats (although we cannot know the difference in the spirituality of the chaplains so results may vary.

There is, however, preliminary empirical evidence that regular participation in volunteer-led Bible studies is associated with reductions in recidivism. For example, a study of prisoners from four different New York prisons who attended 10 or more Bible studies during a one-year period prior to release found they were significantly less likely to be rearrested during a one-year post-release follow-up study. 3 In a more recent study tracking these same prisoners for an additional seven years, it was found that regular participation in volunteer-led Bible studies remains significantly linked to lower rates of recidivism for two years and even three years post-release.

There was an AP piece depicts Angola as a onetime den of violence and despair that has been transformed by its warden, Cain, into a safe and orderly community where "everyone has a job" and where "students crowd into classrooms to study toward a college degree." The prison's bloody past, Cain tells the AP, was "all because of a lack of hope"--a situation the warden has treated with the dual remedy of education and redemption, in part through a degree program in Christian Ministry.

Lest we underestimate the problem of recidivism an estimated 68% of 405,000 prisoners released in 30 states in 2005 were arrested for a new crime within three years of release from prison and 75% were arrested within five years. This statistic is per the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

We could get into a discussion without statistical controls and try to pinpoint violence by country but the numbers would get lost in trying to determine who is Christian and who is not. For there may be many so called Christians within a nation but we don't necessarily track people by that and certainly nations can't be bundled by who is following Jesus and who is not. For example some would say the United States is a Christian nation but it clearly is not. We could go into comparisons of communist nations past and present and talk about Stalin's, Mao's, Pol Pot's exterminations of millions. We could also talk about Hitler and his reliance on the atheistic philosopher Nietzsche. There are plenty of implications there but a straight forward statistical analysis either by atheistic leaning evangelists or Christian evangelists would be hard pressed to do a meritorious comparative analysis. Anyway that my 2 bits - I need to finish shopping.

It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas here in the northeast, Pat

 

[YouAreAwesome]

No. I never attribute "evil" to God, regardless what He does. Here is where we get into definitions.

A lot of people believe they have the prerogative to define "good" and "evil" for themselves and then to apply their definitions to the acts of God--which is precisely the temptation Satan used against Adam and Eve and is the point to that story: The desire to judge God.

I don't judge God's actions as good or evil. In my estimation, "good" is whatever God does or commands according to His plan, and "evil" is anything different from that.

Sorry but I'm confused by your view. Which proposition is false?

1. Everything happens according to God's plan
2. Evil is not according to God's plan
Contradiction.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Wow! I'm totally surprised at the survey results. The majority said no. Wow!

But how?! (rhetorical question)

I mean God created EVERYTHING! (Please note caps are for emphasis, not yelling, never yell *smile*).

So if 'everything' is God's creation, then evil is also. It's part of 'everything' isn't it?

Think of this...

If He didn't create evil, then HOW would we have a choice (between good and evil)? Then there would BE no choice. Then evil wouldn't be a choice because He didn't create it, it wouldn't exist, again back to He created everything.

It's there so we CAN choose. Our free will either will bring us to God or away from Him.

The best love isn't one that's forced. I, personally, don't want my close ones to love me because they are forced to. But out of free will. Because the WANT to.

In the same way, God wants us to choose. To choose Him. To choose good... from the heart, genuinely (as I mentioned in another post).

So to conclude, if we believe that God created everything. Then evil is part of the everything, is it not? It doesn't besmirch, it shows the open hand with which God loves us. Giving 'us' the choice of loving him (good) or not (evil).

Personally, I don't need 'proof', in the same way that I don't need 'proof' of God's existence. Isn't that what faith is?

Glory to God!!!

Makes sense. God created evil for the sake of free agents who can love Him by choice.

Some questions:
1. Does that mean we can do evil for the sake of some ultimate goal?
2. Does God continue to create evil or was it a one off event?
3. Do you truly believe a being of perfect love creates hate?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

But before that "many false prophets (those who claim to be anointed that speak for God but really speak for the thief) will arise upon the earth deceiving many and trying to destroy the work of Christ.

Not sure how much you've looked into this, but this has already occurred. Matthew 24 prophesies the destruction of the temple in AD70.

 

[angela4God]

Makes sense. God created evil for the sake of free agents who can love Him by choice.

Some questions:
1. Does that mean we can do evil for the sake of some ultimate goal?
2. Does God continue to create evil or was it a one off event?
3. Do you truly believe a being of perfect love creates hate?

Thank you for your reply.

If you're asking me these questions, I'll unfortunately have to disappoint you. I would only be able to give you my outlook. And that actually, I kind of hesitate to do at this point, since my outlooks and opinions don't seem very welcomed (present company excluded, since I don't know you). This Christmas season I thought I'd give this another try, but it seems that what I'm finding is a carbon copy of what I found when I first joined and tried this forum.

Imho learning about God, discussions about His Word should be a joyous interaction with our fellow human beings (fellowship) rather than what I see going on here (unfortunately), as well as many other places much of the time.

But I'll answer you, because it wouldn't be fair to do otherwise.

So again, this is my own outlook and opinion and a note to those who will bombard me with scripture... kindly don't. I do have a Bible if that's what I'd want to read. I came here to (hopefully) interact in the spirit of God-religion-the Word (and since so many of you agree God is love, it would be nice if we all could interact in that spirit). After all, despite our differences, we are all, each of us a child of God, His creation and as our Father, I'm sure He'd love to see us enjoy each other and play nice.

With that said, I'll continue with the topic.

A human cannot comprehend God's knowledge, intellect or how He totally thinks. We do not have the capacity to understand. Our brains are way too limited for that.

Therefore God gave us His Word, for our limited brains, so that we could understand to the degree we're able to. But that's what He wanted, in His wisdom, because if it wasn't supposed to be that way He would have created it otherwise. Actually, I think an ant could easier be a rocket scientist than a human could understand God's thoughts.

So then if His power is that tremendous... Omnipotent, actually, then how can we really think that we can figure it all out? Kind of ridiculous, no?

So, with that outlook, coupled with my staunch belief that God created EVERYTHING... so that includes everything (not to sound idiotic, but really... e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g), how can we think we can 'get it' all? And if we recognize that, and recognize that God gave us his Word for us to contemplate it among ourselves, then how can we argue the way some of us do?... have the attitudes towards each other the way we do?

For deeper answers we have theologists, who dedicate their lives to try to know all that can be learned from His Word. I'm not a theologist (why is this thing telling me that I'm not spelling theologist correctly... when I just looked it up and it is the way it's spelled... ugh.. anyway), so I'm not a theologist and can only give you my opinions and outlooks from my own little pea brain.

My answers to your question:

1. A human can do anything he chooses. He has free will of choice. Now if you ask 'should' one? Then the question becomes "Should one do evil to achieve a certain goal?" I think the answer is obvious to that question.

2. As far as I understand Creation - God put it in place with His Words. He spoke it and it came to be. Within that 'came to be' is a continuing... it continues to be. Example: nature, procreation, etc.. It continues. I guess the next question to that would be, "Does it grow, multiply or does it stay rather in a limited or stagnant form?". Or at least that would be my next question.

3. I believe that hate is of evil. How many times we read that hate, anger, even (tragically) depression and illness is not of God's love but of evil. (Although evil is also created from God's love for us and our 'good', just like our suffering is for our 'good', but I shouldn't veer too far off.) So if God created all... (and I'm not trying to be a smart derriere), but again if God Created absolutely everything, then hate, belonging to evil is part of His Creation. Everything has 'parts and particles' to it. A tree has branches and leaves, etc.. Even dirt has many different particles. So, then, evil too has it's own parts and particles, so to say. Hate being a part or particle of evil.

It was nice chatting with you, YouAreAwesome. Again, thank you for your reply. Wishing you and yours a Very Merry and Blessed Christmas!

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Thank you for your reply.

If you're asking me these questions, I'll unfortunately have to disappoint you. I would only be able to give you my outlook. And that actually, I kind of hesitate to do at this point, since my outlooks and opinions don't seem very welcomed (present company excluded, since I don't know you). This Christmas season I thought I'd give this another try, but it seems that what I'm finding is a carbon copy of what I found when I first joined and tried this forum.

Imho learning about God, discussions about His Word should be a joyous interaction with our fellow human beings (fellowship) rather than what I see going on here (unfortunately), as well as many other places much of the time.

But I'll answer you, because it wouldn't be fair to do otherwise.

So again, this is my own outlook and opinion and a note to those who will bombard me with scripture... kindly don't. I do have a Bible if that's what I'd want to read. I came here to (hopefully) interact in the spirit of God-religion-the Word (and since so many of you agree God is love, it would be nice if we all could interact in that spirit). After all, despite our differences, we are all, each of us a child of God, His creation and as our Father, I'm sure He'd love to see us enjoy each other and play nice.

With that said, I'll continue with the topic.

Therefore God gave us His Word, for our limited brains, so that we could understand to the degree we're able to. But that's what He wanted, in His wisdom, because if it wasn't supposed to be that way He would have created it otherwise. Actually, I think an ant could easier be a rocket scientist than a human could understand God's thoughts.

So then "I don't know" seems the appropriate answer would you agree? And whenever we come against something we find confusing, we don't try and figure it out, we just say "how can we know His ways?" and move on. I understand this way of dealing with difficult problems. But remember the bible also says it's to the glory of God to conceal a matter, and to the glory of kings to search it out.

So, with that outlook, coupled with my staunch belief that God created EVERYTHING

I can't help but ask, how can you say God is so out of reach for us to understand, and then say He created everything? What if He didn't create everything but gave responsibility to others to create as well?

why is this thing telling me that I'm not spelling theologist correctly... when I just looked it up and it is the way it's spelled... ugh.. anyway

Heh. Theologian.

1. A human can do anything he chooses. He has free will of choice. Now if you ask 'should' one? Then the question becomes "Should one do evil to achieve a certain goal?" I think the answer is obvious to that question.

But if we are to be like God, and He created evil, can't we do evil also.

2. As far as I understand Creation - God put it in place with His Words. He spoke it and it came to be. Within that 'came to be' is a continuing... it continues to be. Example: nature, procreation, etc.. It continues. I guess the next question to that would be, "Does it grow, multiply or does it stay rather in a limited or stagnant form?". Or at least that would be my next question.

So He continues to create evil because things aren't stagnant but continue growing and multiplying? Do you believe all evil today is God's perfect plan?

It was nice chatting with you, YouAreAwesome. Again, thank you for your reply. Wishing you and yours a Very Merry and Blessed Christmas!

While I don't find your answers here overly convincing, your attitude and friendliness is very refreshing! And what's more important? Answers? Or love? May you also be blessed over Christmas. One more sleep.

 

[angela4God]

mistake, will correct.. sorry

 

[angela4God]

So then "I don't know" seems the appropriate answer would you agree? And whenever we come against something we find confusing, we don't try and figure it out, we just say "how can we know His ways?" and move on. I understand this way of dealing with difficult problems. But remember the bible also says it's to the glory of God to conceal a matter, and to the glory of kings to search it out.

Yes. That is absolutely correct. I don't know.

Ergo my desire to interact, read and learn. Can never stop learning, right? Because we never know it all, right?

My father used to say (may he rest in peace) "The more you know, the more you realize how little it is that you really do know."

I can't help but ask, how can you say God is so out of reach for us to understand, and then say He created everything?

If we take the premise that He created everything, then of course He's out of our 'intellectual reach/ability to understand' Him fully.

We don't even understand all that is in our world, not even our own bodies totally - even the best of doctors can be stumped... know what I mean... lol. Then there are other worlds, which we don't understand. Like the world, realm of the angels, which imho God also created (because, well, He created everything). So then, again, with that premise, the answer is obvious.

What if He didn't create everything but gave responsibility to others to create as well?

Then we go backwards, to a core issue, having to wonder if we believe God created everything. That would take us a bit circular, no? Or off on a tangent?

Without the base of "God Created everything", not much of what I saw would hold water to anyone's mind.

And we, as humans do create much, but not the basic world and how it works - the basic laws of nature and such.

Heh. Theologian.

Oh.. oops, of course.. thank you.

But if we are to be like God, and He created evil, can't we do evil also.

I think we are to be like God as in His attributes, not be like God and be Omnipotent... to BE God. To be like him in action and thought. What do you think?

Your last two questions feel a little twisted to me... lol. Sorry, just being honest.

So He continues to create evil because things aren't stagnant but continue growing and multiplying?

Um, no. That's not what I tried to say at all. Sorry I didn't express myself well enough to be understood. Not sure how else to explain what I mean, sorry.

Do you believe all evil today is God's perfect plan?

I wouldn't dream of presuming to know what God's plan is, never mind His perfect plan. How about you?

While I don't find your answers here overly convincing

That's cool. I'm not here to convince anyone. I'm just trying to participate by voicing my own little 2 cents. And reading what others write. Never know what I might learn, or maybe even can impart. Because given the chance, (as you are), and not wagging a finger at me (which you aren't), I'll participate/talk/give my thoughts and opinions from what I know and have learned so far.

your attitude and friendliness is very refreshing!

Why thank you. I appreciate your kind compliment.
I'm enjoying the interaction.

And what's more important? Answers? Or love?

Some of both please
God Bless!

 

[shadowhunter]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p')^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

SOLVED: FAULT FOUND IN PREMISE #4
As a free agent develops in their relationship with God, they are less likely to do evil. The probability of doing evil is then a decreasing exponential function approaching zero. For example, we might arbitrarily choose p=e^-t as t→∞ and t>0 (e=natural log, not to be confused with e=evil).

The equation when taking the complement of p is then:

P(e)=1-(1-e^-t)^t as t→∞ and t>0

And this approaches 0, not 1.

 

[shadowhunter]

Why try to reason it:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Why try to reason it:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Those who argue God doesn't create evil translate "evil" in the verse you've quoted "war" or "calamity"; whatever is the opposite of "peace".

 

[SouthwestSeeker]

So I shouldn't try and learn about Who He is? I should go out and play some sport instead?

Yes, as a matter of fact. God is too vast for the human mind. Quit worrying about details and go and spread the Gospel and enjoy life as God intended...

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Yes, as a matter of fact. God is too vast for the human mind. Quit worrying about details and go and spread the Gospel and enjoy life as God intended...

Must these be mutually exclusive? (I'm not worried btw, I'm seeking out Who the God of the gospel is, asking no questions is a good way to form a cult wouldn't you say?)

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Could God create free willing angels and in such a way that none of them would ever fall?

Did God choose a lot, that would have the minimal fall and best dealings with, in the firmity of Michael, Gabriel and Raphael...?

Did God through a process of anticipation of free willing events, determine what evil would be?

When the holy angels fell others resisted, so resistance was possible, but did God have a purpose for evil? And the fallen angels have committed the eternal sin?

Is Satan the fullness of evil, and only just, instead of a greater evil God imagined and in anticipation of, decided not to create?

I think evil was designed in this way to be minimal and dealt with finally and once and for all. So that we could have an everlasting salvation. And so we would make minimal losses. And so we could earn gains.

 

[Rodan6]

One of the great laws of our universe deals with "free choice". Humans are an example of creatures that make progress through choice. We know from scriptures that at least some higher beings also possess this attribute. It is God's command that choice not be interfered with--that we MUST choose for good or bad. That many beings in our universe choose falsely does not mean that God has created evil. The existence of "evil" (choosing falsely), is made possible through God's plan of free-choice. Through these choices, spiritual candidates have the opportunity for great progress and ultimately eternal life in the service of God's plans for our universe. Consider the value of good choices if it were NOT possible to make bad choices. How can someone experience unselfish service if they are not able to make a choice? If conduct is mandated, then where is the sacrifice? Put in this light, one can clearly see that bad choices (evil) must be tolerated for the ultimate good of ascending will creatures such as us.
We are quick to condemn the evils we see in the world (and rightly so!!). We should ever strive to identify and confront the wrongs we see in our lives. But we should not obsess over the "possibility" of of false choices. Remember it is God's desire that possibilities and potential error be present for our ultimate benefit.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

In the garden of Eden, there was the tree of knowledge of good and evil, if our ancestors had not eaten of it, we'd have something less than the blood of Jesus to inherit, but Jesus would never had needed for us to die and give us His sacred blood. We would inherit Adam's blood, sinless, lawful, holy, worked around rejecting sin, and many generations of perfecting would have taken place instead of so much sin and adultery.

It must be like this on other worlds. We'd be born having a holy nature, to walk with God Elohim, by nature, like Enoch. We'd be on fire with agape love in the crib.

We actually don't need sin, we could have been perfect by the basis of the presence of Elohim, the angels of light, obedience, the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the tree of life.