Proof God created evil

[Leah Beth]

I believe God oversees evil for the purposes of universal evolutionary growth but it is performed by humans with free will. Ultimately we are all working for God even those who serve the Devil.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I am encouraging you to build a relationship with Jesus Christ so that you can receive His wisdom and understanding. Your brain is incapable of understanding God without personal revelation directly from Him. It is the arrogance of man to think that their brains are important when they can't figure anything out without Gods help. That would be like a child being shown how to tie their shoes and then boasting to everyone that they figured out how to do it themselves. That is why faith is necessary to have a relationship with God, because it is not about what you know, it is about pleasing God who then may be pleased to give you revelation of what you desire to know. He is not pleased when you come to Him in any way except through faith:

Hebrews 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him

You are directly questioning the character and motivations of the Most High God, trying to prove He is the author of sin. God isn't insecure, but He does hate sin, and when you abandon your faith and the bible and start inventing your own God, that is called idolatry.

I'm sorry, but faith does not mean "stop using your brain". Faith is about trusting God and believing Him. It does not mean "If you come to a question you can't answer, stop asking the question" as you would promote. This religious mentality is not helpful to me or those like me who seek to know God better (When I spend time with my wife, one of the ways we grow closer is by learning about each other. I learn about her, her background, stories from her past, why she chooses certain things rather than others, what she likes and doesn't like). Remember, we are in the "philosophy" section, I haven't come to you to ask for help personally or spiritually, I'm asking for help philosophically. Know your place and the thread you are posting in. It is rather disrespectful to say "I am encouraging you to build a relationship with Jesus Christ" when you don't know me or my relationship with Jesus. It's a good thing for you I am mature enough in my walk to shrug it off. I say these things for your own sake. I'm sure you are awesome, just be aware that your judgments might be off sometimes, so assume the best rather than the worst.

 

[thesunisout]

I'm sorry, but faith does not mean "stop using your brain". Faith is about trusting God and believing Him. It does not mean "If you come to a question you can't answer, stop asking the question" as you would promote. This religious mentality is not helpful to me or those like me who seek to know God better (When I spend time with my wife, one of the ways we grow closer is by learning about each other. I learn about her, her background, stories from her past, why she chooses certain things rather than others, what she likes and doesn't like). Remember, we are in the "philosophy" section, I haven't come to you to ask for help personally or spiritually, I'm asking for help philosophically. Know your place and the thread you are posting in. It is rather disrespectful to say "I am encouraging you to build a relationship with Jesus Christ" when you don't know me or my relationship with Jesus. It's a good thing for you I am mature enough in my walk to shrug it off. I say these things for your own sake. I'm sure you are awesome, just be aware that your judgments might be off sometimes, so assume the best rather than the worst.

I'm sorry for being disrespectful. Rather than continue a conversation that is making you uncomfortable, I'll leave it here. I don't assume the worst about you, however as a former agnostic who already went through these contortions, as well as many others, I know where this road leads. God bless!

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Rather than continue a conversation that is making you uncomfortable

It doesn't make me uncomfortable.

I know where this road leads

Perhaps you are oblivious to your judgment. Again, not helpful. Believing the worst.

God bless!

You too.

 

[Theo Book]

The word "evil" there is ra in hebrew, mean ing to bring calamity, distress etc. It does not mean to bring sin or evil in the sense of someone doing moral lawlessness s or unrighteousness. Just as God makes peace in a time of war he can bring judgement distress and calamity and bring men from their false peace.

God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempted he any man.

Satan is the father of lies as Jesus said, and when he speaks a lie he speaks of his own. God cannot lie as scripture teaches

While it is true, the word for "evil" in the statement "I create evil"- is "RA" in Hebrew and "ponhros" in the Greek throughout the testaments.

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and [7451 RA] evil. [GK][ponhros]

Exodus 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this [7451 ra] evil against thy people.

2 Sam 3:39 And I am this day weak, though anointed king; and these men the sons of Zeruiah be too hard for me: the LORD shall reward the doer of evil according to his 7451 RA [h['r' ] wickedness.

1 Kings 9:9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this [7451 RA] evil.

1 Chronicles 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the [7451 RA] evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

1 Kings 21:21 Behold, I will bring [7451 ra] evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]eth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel,

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create [7451 ra] evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Jeremiah 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their [7451 ra] evil, I will repent of the [7451 ra] evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jeremiah 18:10 If it do [7451 ra] evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Jeremiah 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his [7451 ra] evil way, that I may repent me of the [7451 ra] evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the [7455 roa] evil of their doings.

Jeremiah 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the [7451 ra] evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Jeremiah 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the [7451 ra] evil that I have done unto you.

Psalm 78:43 How he had wrought his signs in Egypt, and his wonders in the field of Zoan: 44 And had turned their rivers into blood; and their floods, that they could not drink. 45 He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them. 46 He gave also their increase unto the caterpiller, and their labour unto the locust. 47 He destroyed their vines with hail, and their sycomore trees with frost. 48 He gave up their cattle also to the hail, and their flocks to hot thunderbolts. 49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending [7451 ra] evil angels among them.

It is the same whether bad men contrive to do evil, or God repents of the evil He intended for Israel, or whether it is evil that is done by evil men.

 

[Breckmin]

1. God created free agents True.
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e TRUE, BUT you have to distinguish between potential and ability. You can have abilities that you choose to never use.
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1 Irrelevant. Freewill is a self-generated causal system unlike all other causal systems. KEY: There are things which take away potential while the ability (never used) still remains.
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p')^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
Unless there is something which removes the inclination to ever sin such as loyalty or extreme extreme fear (of hell).
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil. Commit "acts" of moral evil, yes. But not all did. Holy Angelsm for instance, never sinned.
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless For all, yes... for some...NO.
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil Not so simple. Responsible in what way?
8. Therefore God created evil Sin is NOT a tangible "thing" that God creates...it's an act or action of a freewill agent. Freewill might create the potential byproduct FOR it to occur, but God is NOT the cause of this sin... God merely allows it to happen because He will someday judge it with perfect justice.

 

[SolomonVII]

The mistake in your logic is that you believe that evil was inevitable because an infinite amount of time would pass. Not according to scripture:

Revelation 21:1-5

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.

An infinite amount of time will pass after the new heavens and new earth are created, and yet sin will never enter the world ever again.

You also don't know what God had planned after Adam and Eve had been in the garden for awhile and begun to populate the Earth. Perhaps they were on a trial period in the garden where evil was a possibility but after they passed the test evil was no longer a possibility. You make too many assumptions: evil is inevitable after an infinite amount of time, and that Adam and Eve would have remained in the same state of having a potential for evil for an infinite amount of time instead of a finite amount of time. I don't agree that your argument is accurate even if your basic premises are true, but they are invalidated by those two facts in any case.

I would also ask, why are you so eager to prove that God is the author of evil? Could it be that your flesh desires an out that you feel you would have if you could blame God for your sin? You need to realize that no one is to blame for your sin but you, and we will all be held accountable for our own sin when we stand before the Lord. It is only because Jesus Christ paid the penalty for sin that we could go free, if you believe and are trusting in Him as Lord and Savior. God did not create sin, but He did put it under the feet of Jesus Christ, as well as the devil and his power of death, so that we can be free.

I like your argument, but even more than your argument, I appreciate your question.
To what end does it serve to make God responsible for the evil that we do? God is reduced to an amoral demon in such a belief system, and the dignity of man is reducing to that of an automaton based in biology.
Christians proposing such a system have created a swamp for their worldview. Atheism would be a better believe system for such Christians, than to believe in a God such as the one that their logic has created for them.

 

[PanDeVida]

So do you agree that it was impossible for free agents to remain sinless?

Who do you mean, James Bond aka Agent 007? lol

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Thanks for your insight; even after 14 pages of posts you bring some new ideas.

2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e TRUE, BUT you have to distinguish between potential and ability. You can have abilities that you choose to never use.

But if there is an ability you have the potential of using, potential remains. It might have a probability of 0, but the potential is still there. And in the case of choosing evil, we know this has been chosen by at least two kinds of free agents: angels and humans. This itself is proof that there is potential to do evil. I'm not sure the distinction needs to be made because abilities have potential to be used or the agent does not actually have that ability. For example, I have the potential to chop off my own foot in the next hour voluntarily without coersion, but I will not it. The potential is still there. The probability is so small it's almost negligible, but it is still there.

3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1 Irrelevant. Freewill is a self-generated causal system unlike all other causal systems. KEY: There are things which take away potential while the ability (never used) still remains.

All we need to do is show that choices can be assigned probabilities. For Adam and Eve, they had the choice to be disobedient (e), or to not be disobedient (e').

The moment they sinned, P(e)=1.

For the sake of making this into a real life example, imagine say, ten seconds before their sin, P(e)>0 but P(e)<1. In other words, there was some chance they would sin, but they didn't have to because they could have decided not to (as per Premise 1).

In fact, P(d)≠0 at any point in time because they did sin.

Applying this idea to heaven, if we believe we still have significant free will (can choose good or evil), then the probability curve of this happening must be exponentially decreasing and approaching the limit P(e)=0.

4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p')^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
Unless there is something which removes the inclination to ever sin such as loyalty or extreme extreme fear (of hell).

Perhaps by choice, or loyalty, the significant free will can be removed. But this would mean the agent can no longer sin even by choice, but rather, has chosen to be an automaton with regard to good and evil. No more moral good can be created from such an agent because it is determined. I think what you are saying here is similar to previous posts, that at some point in time a free agent can give up their freedom to sin. This is not a biblical notion, but it might be true. Perhaps Adam and Eve were being tested over a period of time and at some point there would be no more significant free will.

5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil. Commit "acts" of moral evil, yes. But not all did. Holy Angelsm for instance, never sinned.

True. This was pointed out earlier as well.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Who do you mean, James Bond aka Agent 007? lol

Free agents = angels, humans, spirits, any being that can choose between good and evil (also called moral freedom, or significant freedom).

Is that your question?

 

[thesunisout]

I like your argument, but even more than your argument, I appreciate your question.
To what end does it serve to make God responsible for the evil that we do? God is reduced to an amoral demon in such a belief system, and the dignity of man is reducing to that of an automaton based in biology.
Christians proposing such a system have created a swamp for their worldview. Atheism would be a better believe system for such Christians, than to believe in a God such as the one that their logic has created for them.

When God's character is in question, it always serving to pull Him down to man's level. Temporal, material beings made of dirt, trying to judge a holy, and wholly infinite, Creator. Man cannot reason himself out of a paper bag without God's help. The wisdom of men is exalted in the world, and in this forum, but the scripture tells us the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

To what end does it serve to make God responsible for the evil that we do?

It's not about making God responsible, but about figuring out who is responsible; and we're not focusing on personal responsibility for the evil we do, but about maximal responsibility for evil acts existing at all. Why do evil acts exist? Why aren't there only loving acts? Was it an unfortunate but necessary part of God's ultimate and perfect plan? Or are acts of evil completely unnecessary and never needed to occur at all?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

When God's character is in question, it always serving to pull Him down to man's level. Temporal, material beings made of dirt, trying to judge a holy, and wholly infinite, Creator. Man cannot reason himself out of a paper bag without God's help. The wisdom of men is exalted in the world, and in this forum, but the scripture tells us the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God.

Some Christians believe He created evil. Would you encourage those Christians to question God's character?

 

[thesunisout]

Some Christians believe He created evil. Would you encourage those Christians to question God's character?

Theyve already questioned His character, that is how they arrived at that conclusion. Before I became a Christian I was in the new age. I saw God through the lens of Yin and Yang, light and dark. The scripture says however that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. God is morally perfect, indeed perfect in every way and perfectly good. You cannot pin sin on a holy God.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Theyve already questioned His character, that is how they arrived at that conclusion. Before I became a Christian I was in the new age. I saw God through the lens of Yin and Yang, light and dark. The scripture says however that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. God is morally perfect, indeed perfect in every way and perfectly good. You cannot pin sin on a holy God.

You see, I agree with you. But that is not the point. The point is, you are encouraging us to not question God's character. But in a rather contradictory way you then present your own knowledge of His character i.e. morally perfect, perfect in every way etc. If you expect this to be helpful then you expect the person it has helped to change in some way. You said it yourself, you used to believe God was light and dark, but you questioned it, and now you don't.

 

[SolomonVII]

It's not about making God responsible, but about figuring out who is responsible; and we're not focusing on personal responsibility for the evil we do, but about maximal responsibility for evil acts existing at all. Why do evil acts exist? Why aren't there only loving acts? Was it an unfortunate but necessary part of God's ultimate and perfect plan? Or are acts of evil completely unnecessary and never needed to occur at all?

For those who accept the logic laid out in the OP, how does accepting the logic not mean that it is God that is responsible for evil?
How does it not make the Biblical axiom 'and behold it was very good' into a lie?
Whatever other questions about the nature of man or the nature of God, or reality may arise out of accepting the argument, the inevitable conclusion that we can create out of a God who creates evil is that he is in some measure an amoral demon in this world.
For an atheist, this all works out. Such a god would be less than a ultimate being worthy in believing in at any rate, but the question is not what the theological end game for atheists would be in accepting such logic.
The more interesting question is why would any Christian continue to be Christian and worship a lesser being of this sort in the first place?

 

[thesunisout]

You see, I agree with you. But that is not the point. The point is, you are encouraging us to not question God's character. But in a rather contradictory way you then present your own knowledge of His character i.e. morally perfect, perfect in every way etc. If you expect this to be helpful then you expect the person it has helped to change in some way. You said it yourself, you used to believe God was light and dark, but you questioned it, and now you don't.

I'm glad we can agree on something!

I'll tell you what the difference is. Because I wasn't a Christian, I didn't know who God is. God was a mystery to me; I was going by my own understanding and the worlds understanding and pieced together a God who suited my own preferences. I had the idea that God didn't like my sin, but I thought He winked at it because He knew we were all ignorant and weak. As far as judgment, not in my wildest dreams did I think God would punish sin. I knew Him as love, but I didn't know Him as holy.

When God revealed to me that Jesus Christ is Lord, I knew I had to make a choice. He made it very clear to me: give your life to my Son or willfully delude yourself. At that time I didn't want to give my life to Jesus Christ, but even more strongly I didn't want to delude myself. I loved the truth even when it hurt. So, I gave my life to His Son and He totally and completely transformed my life from the inside out. I am a totally different person than I was before. I know exactly what it means to be born again.

God also revealed to me that the bible is His book, and I knew from my experience that everything Jesus said was true, but I wasn't sure if I could trust the Old Testament. He led me to a scripture I spoke about earlier. Proverbs 3:5:

Trust in the Lord with all of your heart
Lean not on your own understanding

He told me to surrender all of my questions to Him and allow Him, if He pleased, to answer them in His own time. When I did that God gave me a peace that I cannot describe. It was when I laid down these concerns that He started to answer some of my questions. 6 years later He has answered many of them and keeps answering them.

That is why I am admonishing you to lay down your doubts and seek Gods face; He understands your concerns better than you do, and He is willing to reveal Himself to those who diligently seek Him. He will answer your questions through personal revelation; even if we answer your questions you won't have the faith to believe the answer because God hasn't revealed it to you.

In any case, once I found out who God is I didn't question God. His word is truth and I believe every word of it. When you're a Christian, questioning Gods character and motives is backsliding. The bible tells us what we should believe about God, and if you doubt that, you have a heart issue with God. It's a lack of faith and the scripture tells us that anything that is not of faith is sin.

 

[thesunisout]

For those who accept the logic laid out in the OP, how does accepting the logic not mean that it is God that is responsible for evil?
How does it not make the Biblical axiom 'and behold it was very good' into a lie?
Whatever other questions about the nature of man or the nature of God, or reality may arise out of accepting the argument, the inevitable conclusion that we can create out of a God who creates evil is that he is in some measure an amoral demon in this world.
For an atheist, this all works out. Such a god would be less than a ultimate being worthy in believing in at any rate, but the question is not what the theological end game for atheists would be in accepting such logic.
The more interesting question is why would any Christian continue to be Christian and worship a lesser being of this sort in the first place?

Amen, God said it was very good, which is a very good point. God wouldn't call good evil or evil good; He warned us not to do that very thing!

Isaiah 5:20

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter

 

[YouAreAwesome]

The more interesting question is why would any Christian continue to be Christian and worship a lesser being of this sort in the first place?

Because the I do not want to worship an optimistic imaginary idea, but the True God Himself, as He is, and not as you or others want Him to be. Please note, there are Christians who have replied in this thread who believe God created evil and they are no less Christian than you. So this question is not even a question about God's character necessarily, but what the outworking of His character actually produces.

I want to know if moral good is impossible without moral evil? Because I believe it's not. I believe there is moral good without evil. However, men smarter than I argue differently. For example, the Free Will Defense that Platinga uses to solve the logical problem of evil relies on the fact that there is only moral goodness when there are moral evils. In my view this means God actually needs evil to create moral goods. And a consequence is that omnibenevolence actually relies on evil to create moral good and I'm having trouble swallowing that pill.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I didn't know who God is.

You know Who God is. Good. Do you know everything about Him? Do you know all doctrine perfectly? If you don't, how do you learn? Do you pray and spend time with Him (sounds like you do)? What if He still hasn't answered you? Do you ask a question on Christian Forums only to be told you actually don't know God well enough and you should stop asking questions? (I'm being serious here, because this is exactly what you are doing at the moment. And again, I'm not going through this conversation for my sake, this is for you).

God was a mystery to me

God was a mystery hey, but He is no longer a mystery? I believe what you mean is, you had an idea about Him but had never actually surrendered to Him. And then He started teaching you Who He really is, and you love Him for it! But let's just get something clear, He is still a mystery, right? In the same way, I love my wife, I know her better than anyone and vice versa, but she is still a mystery to me!

I was going by my own understanding

You were going by your own understanding, but now you don't? So who's understanding are you going by? God's? That's a pretty bold claim. Now I'm not saying He can't guide you into a good understanding, He most definitely can, and does. But in the present, we are all in need of changing our thinking (repentance means: to change the way you think, to turn in a new direction). Perhaps you go by the bibles understanding? Well there's many interpretations and there'll be thousands of verse you don't have the right thinking about yet. Have a good think and pray about all of this, because you are still going by your own understanding in certain areas, and that's okay! Just remove the arrogance that masquerades as faith, and own that you don't know everything about God or the Bible, but you do know Him, and you trust in Him in the meantime.

So, I gave my life to His Son and He totally and completely transformed my life from the inside out. I am a totally different person than I was before. I know exactly what it means to be born again.

Excellent.

6 years later He has answered many of them and keeps answering them.

Great.

That is why I am admonishing you to lay down your doubts and seek Gods face

Here is the straw man. You have created for yourself an image of who I am and where I am at in my walk with God. Whether it's by the way I write, or that I am writing questions about God, or that I'm posting in the philosophy section, whatever it is, you have judged me. Now I want you to realise that when a person questions any doctrine the church holds sacred, they try and belittle the person and encourage them to "forget about it, seek God and leave these things to rest". This is a RELIGIOUS SPIRIT that disallows questions and brands them doubts and sinful. This is the spirit that drives people out of faith and into long term doubt. Teaching a person to hide their questions deep down under "trusting God" is not a long term solution. It's a short term fix. Better is to just say "I don't know" than "don't ask that question". My question is NOT SINFUL. It is truly seeking for God, and it does not deserve the condemnation you spew forward with subtlety. IT IS NOT HELPFUL. Questions are GOOD. I am not in doubt, I am seeking to know God in a closer way.

questioning Gods character and motives is backsliding

No, it's not. And as I said earlier. This is a philosophy thread. Please do not enter a philosophy thread to tell people to stop questioning and just have faith.