Procreation Permit

[Nemnar]

Well, here is something else to chew on with this topic. You say you dont want children born to bad parents. Depending on how you define "good" parents, I probably wasnt born to "good" parents. I didnt have a dad that was around most of my life, and my mom had to work to support me, so she wasnt there like she should have been. But guess what, it didnt harm me one bit. I am saved, passionate about God, I a stronger person, I have a strong faith because of what I went through, not despite it. Also, I know of people who were raised by good Christian parents, did things right, and their child as soon as they got on their own, went totally away from the way they were raised. And I would like to mention no parent is perfect, so no matter what standard you set, you will always have people that otherwise would be good parents, but missed it by .5%. You mentioned the woman that had a third child for more government support, easy solution, stop that. The welfare system in this country could use a little work. But this thread is neither here nor there. Theres this little idea in law, innocent until proven guilty, that kinda applies here. You dont know how good or bad a parent(s) has been until their child is grown. Even, then, some good parents do everything right and their child chooses to rebel, to go against their parents. The best thing we can do is what someone said before, preach the gospel, get people saved. And I would like to mention that its our job to help the poor, the sick, pray for them, faith without works is dead. Christians should never let the government do anything we as a church or as christians should do, because they will at best do it inefficiently, and at worst, totally make a mess of it and make things worse. Anyway, thats my 2 cents

 

[SearchingStudent]

Let's play with this hypothetical question. 17 year old girl gets pregnant. The father of the baby splits when she's 4 months pregnant. Girl decides to continue the pregnancy. No money, no skills, a high school grad. That's it. Girl also was an only child from a fairly abusive home, so she has no idea how to raise said baby.

Would you remove this baby from her mother? Based on what you've written you would.

Now, the end of the story. That 17 year old girl was me. The baby is my oldest daughter. I managed to get a college education, make a very good living, married to a great guy. That baby girl is the mother of 2 beautiful little girls of her own, is also college educated and has an excellent career as a graphic artist.

Who died and gave you (or the state) the right to play God? Even so-called "godly" parents have abused their children in unbelievably hideous ways. (Yep, even the white, upper middle class church going folks).

No thanks!

 

[98cwitr]

So you and your girlfriend believe that the government should approve a couple having a child and issue a permit before they can have a child?

You know...this topic got brought up with a group of friends/co-workers last night. The gf (teacher), her friend and coworker (also a teacher) and her husband (an autism counselor and consultant). All agreed that there should be some sort of mandatory provisioning on giving birth. The husband agreed a permit system a good idea, while the two girls suggested that there are other ways of handling it, but we all agreed that there should be prerequisites to giving birth. I say throw the book at them.

@SearchingStudent; If Dad splits, then throw two books at him too...hit him with the $100 for the permit plus child support. Did you take him to court?

 

[Hammster]

So a bunch of libs got together and agreed we need more Big Brother. Not surprised.

 

[Hammster]

I'm curious, 98. What sort of bad patenting does your gf see that your government program will deter?

 

[98cwitr]

I'll tell you a few stories (names have been changed to protect the innocent):

Tonya was late for the bus one day. Tonya's mom, a single, over-worked and under paid mom with a drinking problem and drug history got really mad. Tonya came to school the next day with two black eyes and cigarette burns on her arms.

A parent brought a gun to school and said he was going to kill the principal.

Another child missed 40 days of the school year because the unemployed mother was too hungover to take the child to school or get her to the bus.

Many of these problems stem from single parents with substance abuse issues. Permit processes would screen for such things (drug and alcohol testing). Get help and then have a child...not the other way around. I am from such a home life; single mom with a lot of substance abuse issues.

 

[Nemnar]

Doesn't DHR and Child protection services handle this kind of thing? Don't we have a system to try and remove children from bad parents? Why doesn't it work?

 

[WilliamB]

So a bunch of libs got together and agreed we need more Big Brother. Not surprised.

This is not a liberal proposal. This is definitely a conservstive, GOP type of legislation. If you're buying the, it's to protect kids nonsense, you're not reading between the lines. This is about not wanting to offer government assistance with tax dollars, nothing more. The "save the kids" theme, is a smoke screen to avoid public redicule. This isn't about whats best for kids, which is obvious to anyone who knows what state raised kids go through. This is about money, pure and simple. Yet it cost way more for the state to raise a kid.

Worst idea ever!

 

[WilliamB]

Doesn't DHR and Child protection services handle this kind of thing? Don't we have a system to try and remove children from bad parents? Why doesn't it work?

It's works just fine except I would contend there is too much government over reach from these departments already.

 

[98cwitr]

It's works just fine except I would contend there is too much government over reach from these departments already.

That's bologna...they don't work fine at all. Too much politics tying the hands of these agencies.

 

[WilliamB]

That's bologna...they don't work fine at all. Too much politics tying the hands of these agencies.

Really? Where's your overwhelming proof. There's about 60 million kids in America. So far I think I've seen 2 or 3 examples from you. I'll wait...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3lLYOGDsts&sns=em

 

[Nemnar]

98, I understand your point, but right now, you are living in a fantasy with this idea, you could never get something like this passed right now. Now I will admit, in an end of world anitchrist rules the world kind of time, I would expect something like this. But of course, by that time, you'll have much worse to worry about.

 

[Hammster]

I'll tell you a few stories (names have been changed to protect the innocent):

Tonya was late for the bus one day. Tonya's mom, a single, over-worked and under paid mom with a drinking problem and drug history got really mad. Tonya came to school the next day with two black eyes and cigarette burns on her arms.

A parent brought a gun to school and said he was going to kill the principal.

Another child missed 40 days of the school year because the unemployed mother was too hungover to take the child to school or get her to the bus.

Many of these problems stem from single parents with substance abuse issues. Permit processes would screen for such things (drug and alcohol testing). Get help and then have a child...not the other way around. I am from such a home life; single mom with a lot of substance abuse issues.

And these were reported, correct?

 

[Hammster]

I'll tell you a few stories (names have been changed to protect the innocent):

Tonya was late for the bus one day. Tonya's mom, a single, over-worked and under paid mom with a drinking problem and drug history got really mad. Tonya came to school the next day with two black eyes and cigarette burns on her arms.

A parent brought a gun to school and said he was going to kill the principal.

Another child missed 40 days of the school year because the unemployed mother was too hungover to take the child to school or get her to the bus.

Many of these problems stem from single parents with substance abuse issues. Permit processes would screen for such things (drug and alcohol testing). Get help and then have a child...not the other way around. I am from such a home life; single mom with a lot of substance abuse issues.

How many kids does your wife teach have good parents, and are good parents apart from govt intervention?

 

[98cwitr]

And these were reported, correct?

They were...I'll ask regarding your last post (and question).

 

[IisJustMe]

You know...this topic got brought up with a group of friends/co-workers last night. The gf (teacher), her friend and coworker (also a teacher) and her husband (an autism counselor and consultant). All agreed that there should be some sort of mandatory provisioning on giving birth. The husband agreed a permit system a good idea, while the two girls suggested that there are other ways of handling it, but we all agreed that there should be prerequisites to giving birth. I say throw the book at them.

Well, at least you're not alone in your extremism.

 

[98cwitr]

It's not extreme in my eyes...China is extreme. This isn't anywhere near China. China wants to explicitly limit procreation to 1 child per couple. I don't feel that is fair, just, or right at all. Maybe the punishment is a bit extreme, but fining someone that doesn't have any money will just land them in jail anyway :shrug:

 

[98cwitr]

How many kids does your wife teach have good parents, and are good parents apart from govt intervention?

8 of 19 she would call "good" parents (ie: Active in the child's education and no instances of abuse)...all parents are on some sort of welfare program for her current class.

 

[Hammster]

8 of 19 she would call "good" parents (ie: Active in the child's education and no instances of abuse)...all parents are on some sort of welfare program for her current class.

11 kids with abusive parents? Then there shod be 11 kids in the system if that's correct.

 

[dies-l]

What are everyone's thoughts on the following:

In order for a man and a woman to consummate and see a child to delivery, the following must occur before the birth of the child:

1) $100 fee (because if you can't afford $100 for a permit, you surelycan't afford to care for a child)
2) Attend parenting class and pass written test
3) Pass physical exam

Repercussions: 4th degree misdemeanor: Mandatory jail time, 2 years probation, loss of custody, child is handed over to CPS. Doctors and hospitals would be legally bound to report all offenses.

Positive benefits:
1) Day care benefits and coupons for the 1st year of the child's birth, covering no more than 30% of the cost of subsidized day care facilities.
2) Diaper and other child-care consumables vouchers for the 1st year of the child's birth, no more than $150 per month.

I don't know whats scarier: your proposal or the fact that you don't see anything even remotely creepy about it.

What would happen if such a law were passed:

(1) It would almost certainly be overturned as a violation of the 14th Amendment, but assuming that it wasn't

(2) An exponential increase in the number of children in foster care (which itself is quite horrible, when you consider the consequences of aging out of foster care and the damage that is done to a child in foster care);

(3) Jail overcrowding;

(4) A stark increase in Government sanctioned Persecution of the poor;

(5) Government sanctioned persecution of those with a religious objection to contraception;

(6) An exponential increase in the number of abortions performed.

I could probably go on, but one thing you will not see is any meaningful decrease in child abuse or neglect.

The fact is that abused children are far more often the result of unplanned pregnancies than they are of parents with ulterior motives. And, as long as people are having sex, there will be unplanned and unwanted pregnancies.