Process and protest theology: denying God's omnipotence and omnibenevolence

[truthseeker32]

Hello everyone,

As many of you know I am a lapsed Mormon who for years now has been investigating more traditional forms of Christianity. I sometimes peruse the podcasts of a website called "Mormon Matters" which is a website independent of the LDS church where Mormons discuss things such as current events, philosophy, and psychology.

In the most recent podcast the participants take up the problem of evil from a Mormon perspective. Two of the theories they discuss are process theology, which holds that God is not all powerful and still has the potential to progress further, and protest theology which states that God is not all good. I thought I would get your thoughts on these two alternatives to the traditional view of God and see if you can come up with any problems resulting from such views. Below is the link if you want to actually listen to the podcasts:

119–121: The Problem of Evil and Suffering | Mormon Matters

P.S. I will be taking the GRE a week from today and I humbly request your prayers going into the exam.

 

[ArmyMatt]

if He can progress, He is not God. because in Him there is no change, no shadow of turning. He is That He is.

if He is not all good, then He again would not be God. Christ Himself says that only one is all good, and that is God.

and Lord have mercy on you with your test!

 

[The Unorthodox Orthodox]

Most evil comes from man and his misuse of his free will.
Of course there is pain and death in nature, but these aren't evil.
They are necessary parts of the puzzle that is our world.

 

[truthseeker32]

Thanks for your input, Matt.

if He can progress, He is not God. because in Him there is no change, no shadow of turning. He is That He is.

A deeper question, though. Why do we hold that God cannot progress? Why can't one hold that God is simply the most powerful among existing things, but not necessarily all powerful?

if He is not all good, then He again would not be God. Christ Himself says that only one is all good, and that is God.

Why do we hold that God must be good? Why can't God do whatever he wants?

and Lord have mercy on you with your test!

Thank you

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thanks for your input, Matt.

A deeper question, though. Why do we hold that God cannot progress? Why can't one hold that God is simply the most powerful among existing things, but not necessarily all powerful?

Why do we hold that God must be good? Why can't God do whatever he wants?

Thank you

as for your first question, because something higher would have to be providing/aiding the progression. and, that was never what He revealed to us

as for your second, because He can't. He cannot deny Himself, meaning whatever quality He has by nature of being Divine, He cannot contradict. so for example, God is uncreated. He therefore cannot create God. anything created is a creature and not God by definition. if He is Truth, He cannot lie, etc.

as for your third, no problem!

 

[Blonde]

Also, what ArmyMatt is saying is cleary laid out in Scripture. God says He never changes and He says there is none good but God.
That pretty much sums it up.

 

[truthseeker32]

Also, what ArmyMatt is saying is cleary laid out in Scripture. God says He never changes and He says there is none good but God.
That pretty much sums it up.

Do you know off the top of your head a scripture that states God is unchanging?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Do you know off the top of your head a scripture that states God is unchanging?

James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."

 

[truthseeker32]

James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."

Thanks again, Matt.

 

[ArmyMatt]

no probs. there is also the name God gives Moses in the Burning Bush, I AM THAT I AM, which states that Divinity just is.

 

[beardedone]

Matt seems to be doing a great job with the process/protest stuff, but I wanted to wish you luck on the GRE. I'll be taking it next year at about this time. My prayers are with you.

 

[27B6]

Truthseeker, just wanted to say good luck on the GRE and my prayers for a good test!

 

[The Unorthodox Orthodox]

Do you know off the top of your head a scripture that states God is unchanging?

God is by definition a perfect being and thus cannot change.
Well He can, but He does not wish to, for then He would not be perfect.
As Aristotles puts it, perfect is sth from wich you cannot take away anything nor add anything.

As for your second, because He can't. He cannot deny Himself, meaning whatever quality He has by nature of being Divine, He cannot contradict. so for example, God is uncreated. He therefore cannot create God. anything created is a creature and not God by definition. if He is Truth, He cannot lie, etc.

God CAN do whatever He wants. He can be evil, He can destroy this world if He wants to, He can do ANYTHING!
Even if it exceeds our limited logic.

I like to compare Him as a writer; A writer has complete power over the world and the characters in his book.
He can suddenly end the story by writing "and then a huge meteor fell and destroyed their planet" , he can kill off any character for no reason, at any time should he want to.

BUT that kinda ruins the story. And the writer doesn't want that. He wants to write a good book... Same with God.

But do not say "God can't do this and that", because God surpasses your comprehension.

 

[truthseeker32]

God is by definition a perfect being and thus cannot change. Well He can, but He does not wish to, for then He would not be perfect.

God CAN do whatever He wants. He can be evil, He can destroy this world if He wants to, He can do ANYTHING!
Even if it exceeds our limited logic.

It is important for me to reiterate that one of the underlying questions of process theology is "Why do we believe God is all powerful, as in capital O "Omnipotent"?" It seems like anywhere the Bible speaks of God being all powerful we are not restricted to interpreting it just as "God can do whatever he wants" but that God has all possible power.

Do you think God has the potential to become imperfect, in your view? Do you think God has emotions?

 

[Blonde]

I would say He "feels" but does not act unrighteously.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Wouldn't God's impassability presuppose no emotions?

 

[Knee V]

WRT God not changing, there is also Malachi 3:6

For I am the LORD, I do not change;

 

[The Unorthodox Orthodox]

It is important for me to reiterate that one of the underlying questions of process theology is "Why do we believe God is all powerful, as in capital O "Omnipotent"?" It seems like anywhere the Bible speaks of God being all powerful we are not restricted to interpreting it just as "God can do whatever he wants" but that God has all possible power.

God is responsible for the creation and evolution of the world, right?
So He must have complete power over it.

Just like a writer has complete power over the world and characters of his book.

Do you think God has the potential to become imperfect, in your view? Do you think God has emotions?

Lad, I am only human. A limited being with limited comprehensional capabilities.
I can't even understand the nature of the Universe I live in and yet you ask me questions about the nature of the One who created it?

 

[Soderquj]

God is unknowable in his essence as your are unknowable in your essence. God is knowable in his energies (As he works, interacts in the world) as you are knowable in your energies (how you work, act in the world). (I heard that concept in a podcast and it has stayed with me)

So asking us limited humans to determine the nature of God is useless.

 

[Protoevangel]

“For I am the Lord, I do not change; therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. Yet from the days of your fathers you have gone away from My ordinances and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you,” Says the Lord of hosts.
“But you said, ‘In what way shall we return?’
- Malachi3:6-7

Read this passage in context.