trophy33

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1. Futurism is built on obviously wrong method: Beginning with the figurative language, interpreting it and changing plain words and meanings to fit the interpretation.

2. Futurists do not understand that the prophetic language is frequently not literal, but figurative.

3. All predictions of futurism failed so far.

---

I am creating the thread in the "controversial" section not because to say futurism does not work is controversial (the majority of Christianity knows that), but to allow all views (including full preterism) and arguments to be expressed.
 

Original Happy Camper

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Perhaps I should tell you something about “Futurism” and its origin. Many of our people know little or nothing about this dangerous deception. After over 40 years in full-time city evangelism I have come to the conviction that Futurism is one of the deadliest deceptions in Christendom today. This conviction is shared by other men who have devoted their lives to working for souls.

For instance: Futurism has tainted and corrupted the whole evangelical system everywhere. Where did Futurism originate? This question demands a clear answer, so here it is:-

The Reformers, one and all, applied the prophecies of the “Man of sin” and the “Antichrist” to the Papacy.

John Knox
, for instance, wrote, “The Pope is the head of the Church of Antichrist. As for your Roman Church as it is now corrupted. I no more doubt but that it is the synagogue of Satan, and the head thereof called the Pope, the man of sin.”

Cranmer at his trial, gave what he knew was his dying testimony, “As for the Pope, I refuse him as Christ’s enemy, and the antichrist with all his false doctrines.” It was this conviction based on prophecy that made the Reformation. Bible prophecy added great strength to this God-led movement. Bible prophecy may not be the sole foundation but it provided a solid foundation. The Papacy was condemned by both precept and prophecy.

Martin Luther never felt free to break with the Church of Rome until he discovered Justification by faith and had nailed his thesis on the church door. He still believed the Pope was the vicar of Christ and the church of Rome was Christ’s church. He merely aimed at reforming the Catholic Church. It was the discovery from Bible prophecy that finally gave him strength to make the full and final break. He discovered that the Pope was the Antichrist, the “Man of Sin.” He then burned the Pope’s Bull. To him his former church was but a counterfeit system. Now separate from Rome was not separation from Christ, but separation from Antichrist. This discovery produced the Reformation. It gave it it’s foundation and strength. The Reformation, we do well to remember, was born of a dual discovery:- The discovery of the true Christ and the discovery of the Antichrist. Prophecy had foretold the Reformation and prophecy had given the foundation. Is it any wonder that the Papacy, felt that at any cost, it must turn the evidence. The stigma must be removed.

Ribera, a clever Jesuit was selected to do the removing of that damning stigma.
.........

The Reformer, Thomas Brightman, (1562-1607) when he saw Ribera’s work said in disgust “Once they would not suffer any man to scarce touch a Bible, now they produce a commentary to explain it - to point men away from the Papal Antichrist.” Leroy Froom, Volume 2, page 493. This was the beginning of Futurism.

“Thus in Ribera’s Commentary was laid the foundation for that great structure of Futurism, built upon and enlarged by those who followed. until it became the common Catholic position.

And then, wonder of wonders, in the nineteenth century this Jesuit scheme of Interpretation came to be adopted by a growing number of Protestants, until today Futurism, amplified and adorned with the rapture theory, has become the generally accepted belief of the Fundamentalist wing of popular Protestantism” Prophecy and the Church”, page 297 by A. T. Allis.

Allis says: ‘The futurist interpretation is traced back to the Jesuit Ribera whose aim was to disprove the claim of the Reformers that the Pope was the Antichrist. Not only Protestant writers, but Catholic writers as well, have recognized that the Futurist interpretation about Antichrist originated with Ribera. The futuristic School, says one Catholic theologian, Founded by the Jesuit Ribera in 1591, looks for Antichrist, Babylon, and a rebuilt temple In Jerusalem, at the end of the Christian Dispensation.” Hitchcock, The Beast And The Little Horn, page 7.

http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/eBooks/THE_ORIGIN_OF_FUTURISM.pdf

After the initial thrust of the Reformation, the identification of the Papacy as the antichrist became less common; however, it was still strong among Protestants of almost all denominations until about the end of the nineteenth century. Today, in the environment of the ecumenical movement, it has certainly become most unpopular to identify the Papacy as the antichrist. The majority of Christians prefer to ignore the issue, believing it to be of little importance in today’s modern society.

Who is the Antichrist?
 
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Norbert L

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Today, in the environment of the ecumenical movement, it has certainly become most unpopular to identify the Papacy as the antichrist. The majority of Christians prefer to ignore the issue, believing it to be of little importance in today’s modern society.

Who is the Antichrist?
Regardless of who becomes a Pope, such a man is not necessarily immune to the way of Cain, the error of Balaam and Korah’s rebellion.

In the environment of the ecumenical movement I believe Korah's rebellion is a challenge to avoid when it comes to preaching the gospel. Pagan religions tend to not like it when they are told that Jesus is the only God that sits as judge over their soul. They'll tend to leave that table for one of their own.

Besides given the historical record involving the seventh day Sabbath, it's not as if the SDA have roots that once also believed the protestants were a group of anti-Christ. In my view it's just a whole lot easier to direct one's personal indignation at a single seat of power than it is when confronting many seats of power at once. If you go further back in history, it's not as if going to a place of worship on Saturday doesn't make one immune from being anti-Christ either.

Or has everybody forgotten that as a seat of power, it was Sabbatarians who sentenced Christ to die?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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1. Futurism is built on obviously wrong method: Beginning with the figurative language, interpreting it and changing plain words and meanings to fit the interpretation.

2. Futurists do not understand that the prophetic language is frequently not literal, but figurative.

3. All predictions of futurism failed so far.

---

I am creating the thread in the "controversial" section not because to say futurism does not work is controversial (the majority of Christianity knows that), but to allow all views (including full preterism) and arguments to be expressed.
Both plain and figurative language are used in revealing eschatology in scripture. I will also add, idioms, imagery and hyperbole to the list. When limited to a choice between the two categories, as you did, the entire practice of healthy hermeneutics falls apart as both should be used when appropriate.
Blessings
 
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trophy33

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Luke 21 in context:

Jesus and His disciples were in the 2nd temple in Jerusalem in around 32 AD:

"As some of the disciples were remarking how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and consecrated gifts, Jesus said, “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
“Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”


So, the context is clearly the 2nd temple. Jesus then continues about the "when" and about the signs:

"...Nation will rise against nation..."
"...they will seize you and persecute you..."
"... when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near..."
"...There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations..."
"...At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory..."
"...when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."

According to the text, everything was supposed to happen in relation to the 2nd temple in Jerusalem. In the generation alive in the days of Jesus.

There are no "distant future" insertions in the text and no 3rd temple involved.
 
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Clare73

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Perhaps I should tell you something about “Futurism” and its origin. Many of our people know little or nothing about this dangerous deception. After over 40 years in full-time city evangelism I have come to the conviction that Futurism is one of the deadliest deceptions in Christendom today. This conviction is shared by other men who have devoted their lives to working for souls.
Does futurism mean the rapture and resurrection of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 are future?

Do you think they have already occurred?

What exactly is "futurism?"
For instance: Futurism has tainted and corrupted the whole evangelical system everywhere. Where did Futurism originate? This question demands a clear answer, so here it is:-

The Reformers, one and all, applied the prophecies of the “Man of sin” and the “Antichrist” to the Papacy.

John Knox
, for instance, wrote, “The Pope is the head of the Church of Antichrist. As for your Roman Church as it is now corrupted. I no more doubt but that it is the synagogue of Satan, and the head thereof called the Pope, the man of sin.”

Cranmer at his trial, gave what he knew was his dying testimony, “As for the Pope, I refuse him as Christ’s enemy, and the antichrist with all his false doctrines.” It was this conviction based on prophecy that made the Reformation. Bible prophecy added great strength to this God-led movement. Bible prophecy may not be the sole foundation but it provided a solid foundation. The Papacy was condemned by both precept and prophecy.

Martin Luther never felt free to break with the Church of Rome until he discovered Justification by faith and had nailed his thesis on the church door. He still believed the Pope was the vicar of Christ and the church of Rome was Christ’s church. He merely aimed at reforming the Catholic Church. It was the discovery from Bible prophecy that finally gave him strength to make the full and final break. He discovered that the Pope was the Antichrist, the “Man of Sin.” He then burned the Pope’s Bull. To him his former church was but a counterfeit system. Now separate from Rome was not separation from Christ, but separation from Antichrist. This discovery produced the Reformation. It gave it it’s foundation and strength. The Reformation, we do well to remember, was born of a dual discovery:- The discovery of the true Christ and the discovery of the Antichrist. Prophecy had foretold the Reformation and prophecy had given the foundation. Is it any wonder that the Papacy, felt that at any cost, it must turn the evidence. The stigma must be removed.

Ribera, a clever Jesuit was selected to do the removing of that damning stigma.
.........

The Reformer, Thomas Brightman, (1562-1607) when he saw Ribera’s work said in disgust “Once they would not suffer any man to scarce touch a Bible, now they produce a commentary to explain it - to point men away from the Papal Antichrist.” Leroy Froom, Volume 2, page 493. This was the beginning of Futurism.

“Thus in Ribera’s Commentary was laid the foundation for that great structure of Futurism, built upon and enlarged by those who followed. until it became the common Catholic position.

And then, wonder of wonders, in the nineteenth century this Jesuit scheme of Interpretation came to be adopted by a growing number of Protestants, until today Futurism, amplified and adorned with the rapture theory, has become the generally accepted belief of the Fundamentalist wing of popular Protestantism” Prophecy and the Church”, page 297 by A. T. Allis.

Allis says: ‘The futurist interpretation is traced back to the Jesuit Ribera whose aim was to disprove the claim of the Reformers that the Pope was the Antichrist. Not only Protestant writers, but Catholic writers as well, have recognized that the Futurist interpretation about Antichrist originated with Ribera. The futuristic School, says one Catholic theologian, Founded by the Jesuit Ribera in 1591, looks for Antichrist, Babylon, and a rebuilt temple In Jerusalem, at the end of the Christian Dispensation.” Hitchcock, The Beast And The Little Horn, page 7.

http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/eBooks/THE_ORIGIN_OF_FUTURISM.pdf

After the initial thrust of the Reformation, the identification of the Papacy as the antichrist became less common; however, it was still strong among Protestants of almost all denominations until about the end of the nineteenth century. Today, in the environment of the ecumenical movement, it has certainly become most unpopular to identify the Papacy as the antichrist. The majority of Christians prefer to ignore the issue, believing it to be of little importance in today’s modern society.

Who is the Antichrist?
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Does futurism mean the rapture and resurrection of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 are future?

Do you think they have already occurred?

What exactly is "futurism?"

rapture
răp′chər
noun
  1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy.
  2. An expression of ecstatic feeling.
  3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven, by supernatural means

The "rapture" as defined above is the same as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and yes they are future

Futurism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets portions of the Book of Revelation, the Book of Ezekiel, and the Book of Daniel as future events in a literal, physical, apocalyptic, and global context.[1]

By comparison, other Christian eschatological views interpret these passages as past events in a symbolic, historic context (Preterism and Historicism), or as present-day events in a non-literal and spiritual context (Idealism). Futurist beliefs usually have a close association with Premillennialism and Dispensationalism.

Read more here
Futurism (Christianity) - Wikipedia
 
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Clare73

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rapture
răp′chər
noun
  1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy.
  2. An expression of ecstatic feeling.
  3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven, by supernatural means

The "rapture" as defined above is the same as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and yes they are future

Futurism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets portions of the Book of Revelation, the Book of Ezekiel, and the Book of Daniel as future events in a literal, physical, apocalyptic, and global context.[1]

By comparison, other Christian eschatological views interpret these passages as past events in a symbolic, historic context (Preterism and Historicism), or as present-day events in a non-literal and spiritual context (Idealism). Futurist beliefs usually have a close association with Premillennialism and Dispensationalism.

Read more here
Futurism (Christianity) - Wikipedia
Thanks, I had no idea that what has become the common eschatological view based on literal interpretation of prophecy was "futurism." I thought it was "dispensationalism."
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Thanks, I had no idea that what has become the common eschatological view based on literal interpretation of prophecy was "futurism." I thought it was "dispensationalism."

Prophecy is history in advance
History is prophecy fulfilled

Jesus was a historist that is why I am one

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matthew 4:7
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

How many prophecies are there in the Old Testament that were fulfilled by Jesus? Scholars differ in their answers, generally ranging from about 200 to 400.

List of Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by Jesus
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Thanks, I had no idea that what has become the common eschatological view based on literal interpretation of prophecy was "futurism." I thought it was "dispensationalism."

It is a man made theology from the Jesuits

The Order of the Jesuits - Who Are They?
https://www.end-times-prophecy.org › order-of-jesuits.html
The primary purpose of the newly-created Jesuit Order was to serve as the Pope's deterant to the Protestant Reformation, which revealed the Roman Catholic Church as antichrist and the pope as that "man of sin" spoken of by the Apostle Paul. Their plan was to bring the entire world back to the Roman Catholic Church.

 
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Clare73

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Prophecy is history in advance
History is prophecy fulfilled
That is as misleading as any true statement can be.

For it encourages us to view prophecy to be written as history is written; when, in fact, prophecy is often symbolic, while history is factual.
Jesus was a historist that is why I am one

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matthew 4:7
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

How many prophecies are there in the Old Testament that were fulfilled by Jesus? Scholars differ in their answers, generally ranging from about 200 to 400.

List of Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by Jesus
 
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Clare73

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It is a man made theology from the Jesuits

The Order of the Jesuits - Who Are They?
https://www.end-times-prophecy.org › order-of-jesuits.html
The primary purpose of the newly-created Jesuit Order was to serve as the Pope's deterant to the Protestant Reformation, which revealed the Roman Catholic Church as antichrist and the pope as that "man of sin" spoken of by the Apostle Paul. Their plan was to bring the entire world back to the Roman Catholic Church.
The Jesuits are dispensationalists? Who knew?
I didn't know Catholicism dabbled in prophecy.

Live and learn. . .
 
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SkyWriting

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Perhaps I should tell you something about “Futurism” and its origin. Many of our people know little or nothing about this dangerous deception. After over 40 years in full-time city evangelism I have come to the conviction that Futurism is one of the deadliest deceptions in Christendom today. This conviction is shared by other men who have devoted their lives to working for souls.

So what is futurism again?
 
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I am creating the thread in the "controversial" section not because to say futurism does not work is controversial (the majority of Christianity knows that), but to allow all views (including full preterism) and arguments to be expressed.

So you believe ALL... views are valid when you say you are willing to allow "all views"? And the fact that you pointed specifically to "full preterism" means what? that you favor it, or that you reject it clearly but are patient with those who believe it?

Regardless, that's not how we are supposed to be in Christ Jesus. We're supposed to be a bit 'salty' in defending the Faith, not just mumble with theories from men's doctrines that are clearly not supported in God's Word, of which "full preterism" is definitely one of them not supported by God's Word.
 
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parousia70

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Considering the extensive use of hope in the NT, ruling out future realizations of Revelation and other eschatological utterances seems...absurd. One does not hope for things in the present, nor in the past.
Proverbs 13:12
Hope deferred makes the heart sick,
But when the desire comes, it is a tree of life.

You are correct, We should not make our heart sick by deferring Hope for what we already have.
 
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Proverbs 13:12
Hope deferred makes the heart sick,
But when the desire comes, it is a tree of life.

You are correct, We should not make our heart sick by deferring Hope for what we already have.
Romans 8:22-25 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
 
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parousia70

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Romans 8:22-25 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
It's BODY singular, not BODIES plural.

The discussion of awaiting the adoption of OUR BODY in Romans 8:23-25 speaks of the saints who were all groaning together waiting for the adoption of sons. Romans 8:21-25 is parallel to Romans 8:14-16. The Spirit of adoption was given by which they cried out "ABBA FATHER" as they groaned for adoption. According to the passage of 8:14-17, they were coming out of bondage to the Law of Moses and into the adoption as children and heirs with Christ. ANYONE who knows Paul knows this is parallel to Galatians 4:1-10 and Galatians 5:1-5:

Galatians 4:1-10; 5:1-5
Now I say, that the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ ... But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days and months and times and years. I am afraid of you , lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain... Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Romans chapter 8 has not one single thing to do with the Resurrection of the Dead out of Hades. The "adoption, the redemption of OUR BODY (singluar)" in Romans 8:14-25 is that redemption out of the bondage of the Law as righteousness with God and is precisely parallel to Galatians 4:1-10/5:1-5. Paul's churches were struggling to break free from the bondage and corruption to the Law and many were not making it out of that bondage. They were fighting the corruption as they constantly were getting entangled back into the "yoke of bondage." As Paul asked them, "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days and months and times and years. I am afraid of you , lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain"

They were NOT adopted yet. They were NOT delivered out from the bondage of corruption to the glorious liberty of the children of God yet. They were NOT saved yet. Instead, they were all struggling with leaving Moses behind as a system of Righteousness with God and entering Christ as a system of Righteousness with God. Paul longed for the day when the Mosaic Economy and Temple would be destroyed and ALL of them would be free.

We today no longer have to wait for that.
That desire stands fulfilled for us today, and it is indeed a tree of life.
 
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Just as a Note...

The doctrine of Futurism mostly refers to ideas from John Darby's pre-tribulational rapture theory, and Dispensationalism. Some on that doctrine claim an earlier origin, like with a claim by E.B. Elliot about a Jesuit name Ribera in the 1500's. In reality, that doctrine was never taught in a Christian Church until 1830s Great Britain with John Darby and the Edward Irving church.

I personally do not believe in the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory of the 1830s, nor any version of it. However, that does not mean absolutely everything they believe is false. I am a Pre-millennialist as they are, but I am not a Futurist in the sense of what the seminaries call it.

So just because someone claims a certain prophetic Bible event is still yet future, that does NOT make them a Futurist. That should be clearly understood.

Those who do... desire to label anyone a Futurist that claims there's still unfulfilled Bible prophecy that will happen in the future, those are mostly on doctrines of men like Full Preterism, which believes even the prophecies of Christ's future return is already fulfilled!

So don't be deceived brethren by those who hide behind the veils of seminary doctrines of men like Futurism, Preterism, or Historicism.
 
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