problems from my church

[jameshjr]

I think it is better to LGBTQ people in the church fellowship than be shut out of it. Being a part of the church fellowship brings them under the sound of the Gospel. If the Holy Spirit decides to convict them that to carry on with the lifestyle is not appropriate, then He will give them the strength and power to change. Actually LGBTQ folks are no worse than the rest of us. We are all sinners needing redemption through Christ. The problem is that there are too many "holier than thou" folk who have never sinned casting stones at them. It wouldn't worry me if a whole group of LGBTQ folk decided to join my church. I don't have to do what they do, and they wouldn't expect me to. The trouble is that some interpret, "Love one another as I [Jesus] love you" as "Love one another except LGBTQ folk".

Amen, that they should be welcome in church. however, if someone does not repent of their sin, are they in your opinion saved?

 

[Sketcher]

However, my opinion is that Jesus is what changes people and therefore the world (i.e. as a result of more people coming to Christ, then a result of this would be people doing more about the environment);

So, if that's how you think it should happen, I'm confused because one of your points of contention about the church is its effort to do more about the environment.

it annoys me that the c Of e seem to care more about issues that are culturally relevent than sharing the gospel or placing emphasis or organising events that do this.

Do you feel that this church doesn't seem to care about sharing the Gospel? If so, how so?

Don't get me wrong, I still think you should find a new church over the celebration of LGBT week. But in actually finding that new church, you want more good options than fewer, and it helps to prioritize your own priorities. You might find a good church that is more conservative in doctrine and in practice which also practices more of the green efforts. I don't know which of the items on the survey you linked are red flags, TBH.

I like my church, but it's not perfect. It gets most things right. You'll need to find a church that gets most things right, because none will actually be perfect.

 

[jameshjr]

whilst thinking about the issues this thread has raised, i found an interesting article entitled 'the gentle art of correction'. i think it is very good/ here is the link:

Lesson 14: The Gentle Art of Correction (2 Timothy 2:23-26) | Bible.org

 

[Tolworth John]

Hey there John, i appreciate the message. Amen to that, i wish i would have thought of that at the time.

i do lack courage to stand up to or confront people, and tend to capitualte if people disagree with me (in person at least, especially to a vicar whom knows more about scripture than me). i will have to pray for courage over this.

You don't have to stand up to anyone, just ask for biblical evidence.

Asking the vicar about how he plans to celebrate lgbts isn't confrontation.
He may not want to do it but has to follow orders from his Bishop.
Talk to him.

 

[jameshjr]

So, if that's how you think it should happen, I'm confused because one of your points of contention about the church is its effort to do more about the environment.


Do you feel that this church doesn't seem to care about sharing the Gospel? If so, how so?

Don't get me wrong, I still think you should find a new church over the celebration of LGBT week. But in actually finding that new church, you want more good options than fewer, and it helps to prioritize your own priorities. You might find a good church that is more conservative in doctrine and in practice which also practices more of the green efforts. I don't know which of the items on the survey you linked are red flags, TBH.

I like my church, but it's not perfect. It gets most things right. You'll need to find a church that gets most things right, because none will actually be perfect.

it bothers me because, i do not think that caring about the environment is central to the gospel message. i think caring about the environement happens as a result of being changed by the holy spirit.

i think the green movement is a cultural fad, and that focus on that is not important.

I do not think the c of e wants to share the gospel as they never stand up for it as can be shown by their capitulation in allowng a celebration over LGBT month. additionally, my church is happy to speak about lgbt month and being an eco church but there are no events to help share the gospel in the community as a church.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I hear what you are saying, however, i cannot agree with it entirely.

I do not see how your point of view takes into account Pauls teaching about rebuking people in the church who commit great sins (and even kicking them out and giving them over to satan). i do not see how such a liberal approach to others' sin and pauls teaching about keeping people in line (for their benefit) go together.

i ask you politely because i do not know the answer: are we in no way responsible for saying something to our brothers and sisters whom are committing great sins?

For example, if you saw a brother in church taking a purse out of someones handbag in the chuirch, would you say nothing, knowing that the Lord will exercise his judgement on them?

Additionally are there not gradations of sin? a gay couple attending church is one thing. that couple (or any couple) kissing in church, during a service is another. what if that couple were to go even further? would you still not say that they are misbehaving, allow it to happen, and think that its ok because, God will judge them. Is this what Jesus in revelations told Saint John to write to the churches who were sinning egregiously? Did He say, members of your church are commiting adultery with Jezebel, but dont say anything or do anything about it?

Can you see at all that at some point you have to tow the line with people, otherwise they will step over the line. that is why people need rebuking. do people not do the same with children?

so i think it is one thing to be liberal: they are on their own journey with the spirit, who am i to judge. its nothing to do with me; however, people are sinful by nature and can be blinded to that, and therefore mentioning egregious sin to others may actually be a good thing?

p.s. at what point does not saying anything lapse into fear and cowardice?

In all my time with the Anglican church I never saw any of the behaviour you have mentioned. That's my first point. If any of that behaviour were observed in the church I am sure that someone in leadership, the Vicar or the Curate would be getting the person aside and giving correctional advice.

The next point is, who is to do the rebuking? I for one wouldn't, because I am a sinner myself, and Jesus said that those who are without sin cast the first stone.

Paul did teach that everything needs to be done decently and in order, so if a gay couple were seen kissing during a church service, they would quickly be told to cease and desist in any Anglican church that I know of.

You might not have read my post where I said that the Sunday School superintendent formed a defacto relationship with a widow in the church, and he was instructed to step down from his post until he got his domestic situation sorted out.

We have a member on the forum who is an Anglican priest. I am sure that she will give you the facts about what is, or not, acceptable in Anglican churches.

 

[Sketcher]

it bothers me because, i do not think that caring about the environment is central to the gospel message. i think caring about the environement happens as a result of being changed by the holy spirit.

i think the green movement is a cultural fad, and that focus on that is not important.

I do not think the c of e wants to share the gospel as they never stand up for it as can be shown by their capitulation in allowng a celebration over LGBT month. additionally, my church is happy to speak about lgbt month and being an eco church but there are no events to help share the gospel in the community as a church.

OK, so would you have a problem with a church that did not celebrate LGBT anything, but did share the Gospel in the community and was also an "eco church?"

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Amen, that they should be welcome in church. however, if someone does not repent of their sin, are they in your opinion saved?

I can't say. The day of judgment hasn't arrived yet. That will be the day when the sheep will be separated from the goats. Until then, we cannot safely say whether a person is truly saved or not. Even the person sitting beside you in church or the pastor preaching from the pulpit could be a hypocrite for all you know. We have only what we see from outward appearance, but God knows the hearts of people. The Scripture says, "The foundation of God stands sure, God knows those who are His."

 

[jameshjr]

In all my time with the Anglican church I never saw any of the behaviour you have mentioned. That's my first point. If any of that behaviour were observed in the church I am sure that someone in leadership, the Vicar or the Curate would be getting the person aside and giving correctional advice.

The next point is, who is to do the rebuking? I for one wouldn't, because I am a sinner myself, and Jesus said that those who are without sin cast the first stone.

Paul did teach that everything needs to be done decently and in order, so if a gay couple were seen kissing during a church service, they would quickly be told to cease and desist in any Anglican church that I know of.

You might not have read my post where I said that the Sunday School superintendent formed a defacto relationship with a widow in the church, and he was instructed to step down from his post until he got his domestic situation sorted out.

We have a member on the forum who is an Anglican priest. I am sure that she will give you the facts about what is, or not, acceptable in Anglican churches.

so we agree that there is a line, and that people do need to be informed of their sin. we disagree on where the line is and who tells the person that they are over it.

i address your response to my question from the other message here (about those who do not repent being saved or not):

as has been quoted 1 corinthians 6:9: " Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men" can you read this passage and beleive that gay couples are saved?

therefore, is it loving your brother to see them engage in this behaviour, know from the above scripture that they are not saved and still think that it is not our problem/responsibility to say anything, and not be concerned that it is not adressed in sermons (for two years), that no one talks about it in the church and that the C of E is celebrating lgbt month (gioving the impression that they do not condemn it)?

 

[jameshjr]

OK, so would you have a problem with a church that did not celebrate LGBT anything, but did share the Gospel in the community and was also an "eco church?"

No, that sounds like a good church to belong to!

 

[seeking.IAM]

...as has been quoted 1 corinthians 6:9: " Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men" can you read this passage and beleive that gay couples are saved?

I believe God will save those whom God will save. Decisions about that are above my pay grade.

Despite Paul's words to the church at Corinth, we have from Jesus lips the parable of the wheat and tares, which says the wheat and tares are to be raised together and the master will separate them at the harvest (my paraphrase of Matthew 13: 28-30). I ask how you fit this parable from our Lord himself into your view of confrontation, judgment, and salvation within the church?

 

[PloverWing]

We have a member on the forum who is an Anglican priest. I am sure that she will give you the facts about what is, or not, acceptable in Anglican churches.

(Anglican lay person here, but I do follow this issue closely.)

The different national churches in the Anglican communion hold very different views on LGBTQ issues. According to the Church of England's web site (Information for same sex couples | The Church of England), the Church of England does not currently bless same-sex marriages.

I would say that excessive physical affection between a couple in church is unseemly and distracting, regardless of the genders of the two people.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

so we agree that there is a line, and that people do need to be informed of their sin. we disagree on where the line is and who tells the person that they are over it.

i address your response to my question from the other message here (about those who do not repent being saved or not):

as has been quoted 1 corinthians 6:9: " Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men" can you read this passage and beleive that gay couples are saved?

therefore, is it loving your brother to see them engage in this behaviour, know from the above scripture that they are not saved and still think that it is not our problem/responsibility to say anything, and not be concerned that it is not adressed in sermons (for two years), that no one talks about it in the church and that the C of E is celebrating lgbt month (gioving the impression that they do not condemn it)?

Seeing that it is the Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment to come, I guess the church, being a fellowship centre and a place where the Gospel is preached, doesn't see it has to replace the role of the Holy Spirit.

I haven't got to that holier than thou point where I no longer have the presence of sin in my flesh, so I don't have any right to judge others. Also, there are no people in my church who fit into any of the categories you describe, so any correctional role that I might have as an elder of the church is superfluous.

This means that I am not called to be the behaviour police to go around calling out those whom I think are not as holy as I am, which is not very holy at all.

From what I read in Scripture, it will be the angels' job to sort out the sheep from the goats on the day of judgment. Because I am not an angel, and it is not yet the day of judgment, I just live my life as an ordinary person, and share the Gospel when I get the opportunity, without going around telling people how they should be living their lives.

I really don't care whether adulterers, gay people, fornicators, prostitutes or other such people are saved or not. Not my call. So your questions will go unanswered by me.

 

[jameshjr]

I believe God will save those whom God will save. Decisions about that are above my pay grade.

Despite Paul's words to the church at Corinth, we have from Jesus lips the parable of the wheat and tares, which says the wheat and tares are to be raised together and the master will separate them at the harvest (my paraphrase of Matthew 13: 28-30). I ask how you fit this parable from our Lord himself into your view of confrontation, judgment, and salvation within the church?

I agree that God will save those whom He will save. However, from this answer it sounds to me as though you are choosing to wash your hands of all responsibility for helping to keep others upon the strait and narrow; which, having read Pauls writings, i cannot see how you can adopt that position.

because to me you are saying: the Lord has it under control (obviously) and therefore i do not need to think about it or worry over it ever. Sure, they are going to hell, but thats none of my business. From reading scripture, i do not think this point of view is tenable.

In fact, making people aware of their sin, would probably help them to repent and would lead them to be right and be closer to God (why else do we read the Bible).

I think it is very clear from Paul that people whom are living lives obviously in direct opposition to God, ought to be confronted, and if they do not repent, then they are to be excluded from the church.

If we have no responsibilty for others salvation, why then do you share the gospel?

 

[jameshjr]

(Anglican lay person here, but I do follow this issue closely.)

The different national churches in the Anglican communion hold very different views on LGBTQ issues. According to the Church of England's web site (Information for same sex couples | The Church of England), the Church of England does not currently bless same-sex marriages.

I would say that excessive physical affection between a couple in church is unseemly and distracting, regardless of the genders of the two people.

i agree that any excessive physical affection in church is not good. to be clear, that hasnt happened in my church, i was using an extreme example to point out that we cannot tolerate any behaviour and say "its ok, because God has all the responsibility to chasten them and does not want us or expect us to be involved in chastening them, therefore we will let it go until the holy spirit convicts them".

 

[seeking.IAM]

...Despite Paul's words to the church at Corinth, we have from Jesus lips the parable of the wheat and tares, which says the wheat and tares are to be raised together and the master will separate them at the harvest (my paraphrase of Matthew 13: 28-30). I ask how you fit this parable from our Lord himself into your view of confrontation, judgment, and salvation within the church?

Perhaps you overlooked my question. I see you did not answer it.

... it sounds to me as though you are choosing to wash your hands of all responsibility for helping to keep others upon the strait and narrow; ...In fact, making people aware of their sin, would probably help them to repent and would lead them to be right and be closer to God....

What do you think you have to say to these people that they have not already heard 100 times before?

 

[jameshjr]

Seeing that it is the Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment to come, I guess the church, being a fellowship centre and a place where the Gospel is preached, doesn't see it has to replace the role of the Holy Spirit.

I haven't got to that holier than thou point where I no longer have the presence of sin in my flesh, so I don't have any right to judge others. Also, there are no people in my church who fit into any of the categories you describe, so any correctional role that I might have as an elder of the church is superfluous.

This means that I am not called to be the behaviour police to go around calling out those whom I think are not as holy as I am, which is not very holy at all.

From what I read in Scripture, it will be the angels' job to sort out the sheep from the goats on the day of judgment. Because I am not an angel, and it is not yet the day of judgment, I just live my life as an ordinary person, and share the Gospel when I get the opportunity, without going around telling people how they should be living their lives.

I really don't care whether adulterers, gay people, fornicators, prostitutes or other such people are saved or not. Not my call. So your questions will go unanswered by me.

Would you agree that a persons sin would affect their relationship with the holy spirit? I think that it would.

Therefore is it at all possible, that other people may need to convict the person to get them back on track to listening to the holy spirit. are we not to help bear one anothers burdens?

Additionally, paul is quite clear that adulterers, fornicators and homosexuals will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. If a man has the holy spirit and he dies, is it possible for him not to go to heaven?
I do not think so. therefore they do not have the holy spirit. therefore, people need to call them to repentance for their own sake. not for mine. but for theirs.

On your final sentence. i disagree, scripture quite clearly tells you that they are not saved

 

[jameshjr]

Perhaps you overlooked my question. I see you did not answer it.



What do you think you have to say to these people that they have not already heard 100 times before?

You have continuously overlooked my scriptural quotes and questions. However, i will address it here. True, He will save whom He saves; however does that mean we have no part in this process? Would my anchoring the soil near me, help others to grow? would my seeding of the word increase the harvest?

you know all 'these people' that they have all heard it 100 times before?

 

[seeking.IAM]

.
... True, He will save whom He saves; however does that mean we have no part in this process? ...

I have answered that. I prefer to follow Jesus words to tend to the tares and wheat together and to leave the sorting out to the Master at the harvest. And for that matter, I have always had trouble telling weeds from the good plants. They look much alike to me. That has often gotten me in a bit of trouble with my wife when upon plucking the wrong one.

At any rate, I know what I want to say to these folks in church, and I have said it many times.

 

[jameshjr]

I have answered that. I prefer to follow Jesus words to tend to the tares and wheat together and to leave the sorting out to the Master at the harvest. And for that matter, I have always had trouble telling weeds from the good plants. They look much alike to me. That has often gotten me in a bit of trouble with my wife when upon plucking the wrong one.

At any rate, I know what I want to say to these folks in church, and I have said it many times.

Amen, to it being difficult to tell the difference. and i agree that it is not my business to get involved, but some behaviour is mentioned in the scripture which informs us that someone is as tare and this is when i feel that their is a responsibility (on the church and vicar, at least) to address it or make it clear as to what the Bible says about it.

Also im sorry to hear that you have been in trouble with your wife over this. i am not married but i have heard that it can be rather difficult to avoid this

finally, i know disagreements can get heated but i thought of proverbs 27:17 last night :

As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.

'nuff said.

God bless.