Problem with Election

[redleghunter]

Can we be real? It's the Scriptures we're dealing.

Yes which version are you using?

 

[redleghunter]

“For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.”

He does not agree with you.

I asked how did they (the Israelites) do with the Law?

 

[Butch5]

Thanks for sharing. Prove it.

I've been doing that. You've simply not engaged what I've said.

 

[Butch5]

Yes which version are you using?

If you're referring to verse 1 the New King James is probably the most accurate to the Greek text. If you're referring to verses 3-12 any of them. They're the same.

 

[Butch5]

Thanks for sharing. I am not avoiding your questions. Please if I have, show me where I did? To play fair, what religion do you believe in? I do not want to assume. Thanks.

What religion? The Christian religion.

 

[James2018]

I do not have a problem with God's Election. I have been debating with another poster. She does have a problem with Election. So we are starting this new thread to get everyone's take on it.


"The big problem I have with election is that it changes the nature of a loving God." by GodsGrace101

The only explanation I give myself is that election
and free will are both in the scripture.

I think at a certain point, every time,
with the questions beyond academic theology,
there are no understandable answers.

Is that ok to think that way ?

 

[Butch5]

The reason this debate has gone on for almost 500 years is because both sides are wrong. Each side can see the error in the other side's argument. It'll go on until people realize that both sides are wrong.

 

[James2018]

wow, what a statement, did you read my post ?

what are you saying ?

 

[Butch5]

wow, what a statement, did you read my post ?

what are you saying ?

Hi James. Yes I read your post. What I'm saying is that the doctrine of Election in the Bible is not about God choosing who will and will not be saved. That's why both sides have it wrong. They argue that it's about God choosing who will be saved and it has nothing to do with that. When the Bible speaks about election it's in regard to the promises that God made to Abraham. Election is God's choosing who He will use to fulfill His promises to Abraham. That's why Israel is God's chosen people. It's because they are Abraham's seed and God promised Abraham that He would make him the father of a great nation and the father or many nations, that through him all nations would be blessed. It's this process that God had used to which election pertains.

 

[James2018]

KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Radagast]

The only explanation I give myself is that election
and free will are both in the scripture.

Some version of free will, yes (because philosophers have come up with several different versions of free will).

That is exactly the Calvinist position.

 

[James2018]

Sometimes I think that we have a free will and obviously so does God.
We can do what ever we want to do, inside the premise of reality,
and God does what ever he wants to do,
including electing whosoever he chooses.

 

[James2018]

Some version of free will, yes (because philosophers have come up with several different versions of free will).

That is exactly the Calvinist position.

Calvinism, at least hyper-Calvinism
suggest that there is no free will.

 

[Radagast]

I don't think so, that is a scripture verse.
Calvinism, at least hyper-Calvinism
suggest that there is no free will.

Get your facts straight. Calvinism agrees that there is free will, but says that it is one of the compatibilist versions of free will.

 

[ladodgers6]

The only explanation I give myself is that election
and free will are both in the scripture.

I think at a certain point, every time,
with the questions beyond academic theology,
there are no understandable answers.

Is that ok to think that way ?

Absolutely, thanks for sharing, and thanks for your honesty. Here is an excellent read for you for free:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/pdf/luther_arbitrio.pdf

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/pdf/calvin_varsermon06.pdf

https://www.chapellibrary.org/files/5513/7643/3235/gwmw.pdf

Here is a radio show discussing Free-Will a must hear (copy it to a USB drive and listen to it in the car or whereever:

Free Will? – White Horse Inn

Let me know what you think, or if you have any questions. My advice, read everything you can get your hands. Including Jacob Arminius (aka Arminianism). And let Scripture be the final authority!

 

[James2018]

Anyone feel like helping me understand this verse ?

KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[BobRyan]

God draws no dead persons,

God draws all dead persons as long as they are members of 'mankind' - "I will draw ALL mankind unto Me".

And some of those dead persons actively reject Him EVEN though He has sovereignly designated them as "His OWN".

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

so then given Romans 10

What is it that "results in salvation"?
What is it that "results in righteousness"?

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10

 

[ladodgers6]

Calvinism, at least hyper-Calvinism
suggest that there is no free will.

Here is John Calvin on Free-Will:

"...we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined.
- John Calvin from Bondage and Liberation of the Will, pg. 69-70

"To will is of nature but to will aright is of grace." - Augustine

So when sinners sin, they choose sin willingly. Nobody forces them to sin, or holds a gun to their heads, and say sin or else (Follow?). But when it comes to God or Salvation, sinners apart from God, will not choose God for Salvation. Why, because their wicked hearts desire and seek pleasure of the flesh! They HATE the light, and LOVE the darkness (John 3).

They are DEAD in trespasses & sins. And God is the ONLY ONE who can resurrect the DEAD, and make us ALIVE in Christ! So we are either DEAD or ALIVE! But some people say that the sinner is placed in a NEUTRAL position between Life and Death, to make a decision to Live or Die. Which I disagree with, because the Bible does not teach a partial regeneration.

 

[ladodgers6]

Anyone feel like helping me understand this verse ?

KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Don't Baptist believe in Election?

 

[James2018]

God draws all dead persons as long as they are members of 'mankind' - "I will draw ALL mankind unto Me".

And some of those dead persons actively reject Him EVEN though He has sovereignly designated them as "His OWN".

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

so then given Romans 10

What is it that "results in salvation"?
What is it that "results in righteousness"?

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10

that didn't help