Problem with Election

[BobRyan]

Anyone feel like helping me understand this verse ?

KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

God has called us... it is the Will of God that matters.

"God is not WILLING that any should perish" 2 Peter 3

"4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim 2:4

"I will draw ALL mankind unto me" John 12:32

 

[James2018]

Get your facts straight. Calvinism agrees that there is free will, but says that it is one of the compatibilist versions of free will.

Sorry Radagast, I want the facts straight, what is compatibilist free will ?

 

[BobRyan]

God draws no dead persons,

God draws all dead persons as long as they are members of 'mankind' - "I will draw ALL mankind unto Me".

And some of those dead persons actively reject Him EVEN though He has sovereignly designated them as "His OWN".

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

so then given Romans 10

What is it that "results in salvation"?
What is it that "results in righteousness"?

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10

that didn't help

It was not meant to help Calvinism

 

[James2018]

God has called us... it is the Will of God that matters.

"God is not WILLING that any should perish" 2 Peter 3

"4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim 2:4

"I will draw ALL mankind unto me" John 12:32

that didn't help

 

[BobRyan]

Anyone feel like helping me understand this verse ?

KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

God has called us... it is the Will of God that matters.

"God is not WILLING that any should perish" 2 Peter 3

"4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim 2:4

"I will draw ALL mankind unto me" John 12:32

that didn't help

It was not meant to help Calvinism

 

[James2018]

KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

 

[BobRyan]

KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

All the work that God has done was according to the purpose and grace of God which He determined before time - just as Christ "slain from the foundation of the world".

And Christ "is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

Bible details matter.

Even the details I have quoted that are of no help at all to Calvinism

 

[James2018]

God has called us... it is the Will of God that matters.

"God is not WILLING that any should perish" 2 Peter 3

"4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim 2:4

"I will draw ALL mankind unto me" John 12:32



It was not meant to help Calvinism

That makes it more complicated,
because with that line of reasoning,
God' will shall never be fulfilled.

I think this is where the Universalist and Unitarians
step in to solve that problem.

 

[Butch5]

Anyone feel like helping me understand this verse ?

KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

What version did you get this from?

 

[James2018]

All the work that God has done was according to the purpose and grace of God which He determined before time - just as Christ "slain from the foundation of the world".

And Christ "is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

Bible details matter.

Even the details I have quoted that are of no help at all to Calvinism

wow, great statement . . . saved us is the part of the verse I'm asking about.

 

[BobRyan]

Anyone feel like helping me understand this verse ?

KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

God has called us... it is the Will of God that matters.

"God is not WILLING that any should perish" 2 Peter 3

"4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim 2:4

"I will draw ALL mankind unto me" John 12:32

"He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

"God so loved the WORLD"... yes "really".. John 3:16

That makes it more complicated,
because with that line of reasoning,
God' will shall never be fulfilled.

We can agree that it is "inconvenient" for Calvinism to note that God's will, his purpose, sovereign choice and action for "His Own" is then "rejected" in many cases.

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’” Matthew 23

Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE was there to do - that I have not done?"

I think this is where the Universalist and Unitarians
step in to solve that problem.

That's an odd sort of Universalism that I have never heard of before.

 

[James2018]

What version did you get this from?

I'm asking about the topic of election.
My thread is about bible canonization.
Final Authority and Final Canonization

 

[Butch5]

From what I've seen of your posts it seems to me that you do honestly consider the evidence in the arguments of others. For that reason I thought I'd give you link to an article that explains in much greater detail what I've been saying about Ephesians 1:3-23

http://pfrs.org/commentary/Eph_1_3.pdf

 

[BobRyan]

wow, great statement . . . saved us is the part of the verse I'm asking about.

And slain "from the foundation of the world" such that "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

For God sent "his Son to be the Savior of the World" 1 John 4:14

is the part I am asking about.

All that has been done to offer the Gospel to all mankind - whether a person accepts the Gospel or not - was predetermined by God before the foundation of the World

 

[ladodgers6]

that didn't help

What exactly are you looking for?

 

[BobRyan]

I'm asking about the topic of election.
My thread is about bible canonization.
Final Authority and Final Canonization

I assume you don't mean this thread.

 

[Butch5]

I'm asking about the topic of election.
My thread is about bible canonization.
Final Authority and Final Canonization

I was wondering what version you where quoting from. My version of the KJV reads quite differently than what you posted.

I'd be happy to go over the subject of election with you. As I said, it's not about God choosing who will be saved. There's been so much error that has been brought into the church over the last 2000 years that too many don't have a sound grasp of the Scriptures. That's why I've spend years going back to the early Christians to see what was first taught as the Christian faith. It's actually quite different than what is taught today. There are quite a few doctrines taught today as orthodox that the first Christians fought against as heresies.

 

[James2018]

The focus point is the text.

KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Is it ok to call election-election and free will - free will,
not Calvinism or Armenianism.

 

[James2018]

I was wondering what version you where quoting from. My version of the KJV reads quite differently than what you posted.

I'd be happy to go over the subject of election with you. As I said, it's not about God choosing who will be saved. There's been so much error that has been brought into the church over the last 2000 years that too many don't have a sound grasp of the Scriptures. That's why I've spend years going back to the early Christians to see what was first taught as the Christian faith. It's actually quite different than what is taught today. There are quite a few doctrines taught today as orthodox that the first Christians fought against as heresies.

lol, wow, I already need a couple research assistance, this is great !
I know. I have 60 historical authors and 40 research authors, full collections.

 

[ladodgers6]

Anyone feel like helping me understand this verse ?

KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The passage is clear for me. God made a Covenant of Redemption with the Son and Holy Spirit. This Plan is to save God's people from sin & death, Satan, and the curse of the Law. So God Elects & gives to the Son whom he will save. The Son willingly signs his death warrants, knowing exactly what he will be facing; and fulfills His Father's will; Christ's last words is, 'It is Finished! Christ secured the Redemption of God's people at the Cross. In Christ we are sanctified, and we are being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. The role of the Holy Spirit is to unit us to Christ through Faith. And all of this was Planned by God before the foundation of the world.

Hope is helps???

God Bless!