Problem with Election

[Apologetic_Warrior]

There are Calvinist Armenians. Best not to mix them up with Arminians.

Armenia was, of course, the first ever officially Christian nation.

Seriously or kidding?

 

[ladodgers6]

Indeed.

It's worth pointing out that "Calvinism" does not mean the teachings of John Calvin, it means the teachings of the Continental and Scottish Reformed churches, as expressed at the ecumenical Synod of Dort.

I'm not even sure if John Calvin was actually a Calvinist.

This old argument. For the record. Calvin did not nickname his Doctrines of Grace, 'Calvinism'. His opponents did that. He was angry and was animate about his name not being to use to describe God's word. Calvin was part of the Church of Rome. It was the historical church fathers who got Calvin challenging the teachings of Rome. And his extended knowledge of the old languages that he started understanding the truth.

 

[redleghunter]

Because they are nowhere near the same. Being born in the flesh didn't require faith.

How can a child be born without first being conceived?

 

[Radagast]

You never hear anyone say he's a Wesleyan.

Actually, millions of people do.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I mean to talk about God as the Creator, of necessity omnipotent, self-existing, and under no obligation but to his word, subject to no principle or fact unless he subject himself to it, Creator of all principle and fact.

This includes time. When I put all this together, it turns out that not only has this 6000 or 15 billion years been less than a moment to him, but that everything that happens is foreseen, because it is forecaused.

God sees all this logically as already happened, lawfully completed at the cross. It not only will happen, but is finished.

What is so hard to see about his will being so far above ours? We have no basis for submitting him to our mental capacity, nor our spiritual minds.

 

[ladodgers6]

There's no question that they can hear the holy spirit and learn about the father from it. They can believe in GOD and hunger and thirst for righteous. But they can't repent and believe in Christ until GOD illuminates their hearts with the understanding and knowledge of the truth.

Well okay, for starters you say they can believe and hear the Holy Spirit. But they can't repent and believe in Christ.

Where in Scripture can I find this?

 

[ladodgers6]

There are Calvinist Armenians. Best not to mix them up with Arminians.

Armenia was, of course, the first ever officially Christian nation.

Sorry my bad!!

 

[Radagast]

Seriously or kidding?

You didn't know that Armenia was a country and Jacobus Arminius a person?

 

[ladodgers6]

Yeah I know. I was wholeheartedly disagreeing with him.

I know what you were saying. If God makes us Alive in Christ what constitutes this event?

 

[redleghunter]

I'm back.
I hope you know that calvinists don't believe we do have a choice. They believe God has already determined everything that's going to happen...so, according to them, we THINK we have a choice, but we really don't.

IOW, God is tricking us. He's playing games with our mind.

And there's something even worse He's doing, but I'm not bringing it up...it's too ugly.

Did God choose Abraham?

 

[συνείδησις]

How can a child be born without first being conceived?

A child of the flesh cannot. Like I said before, becoming a child of GOD is an entirely different matter.

 

[ladodgers6]

Did God choose Abraham?

Absolutely!

 

[Radagast]

Sorry my bad!!

I'm not a fan of Rousas J. Rushdoony, but he was probably the most famous Armenian Calvinist.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Actually, millions of people do.

Yep, named after John Wesley (and Charles) one of the co-founders of the Methodist Church, another founder, *ahem* a Calvinist by the name of George Whitefield they would rather just not mention, let's just forget about him, never mind his fame in American history as an instrumental preacher in America's "great awakening". All hail Wesley, said the Holiness movement that followed, preaching the possibility of perfection while in the flesh. *belch*

 

[redleghunter]

Romans 9 isn't about election to salvation. It's about the setting aside of certain peoples (e.g. Israel) to accomplish God's purposes.

That's the definition of election.

 

[ladodgers6]

I'm not a fan of Rousas J. Rushdoony, but he was probably the most famous Armenian Calvinist.

Good to know. I will definitely research him.

 

[συνείδησις]

Well okay, for starters you say they can believe and hear the Holy Spirit. But they can't repent and believe in Christ.

Where in Scripture can I find this?

John 6:44-45. All who hear and learn of the father through the holy spirit (for that is the only way any man can learn of the father) come to Christ. Hearing and learning involves an act of our will.

 

[συνείδησις]

I know what you were saying. If God makes us Alive in Christ what constitutes this event?

Illuminating our hearts with the knowledge of Christ so that we can repent and believe.

 

[ladodgers6]

John 6:44-45. All who hear and learn of the father through the holy spirit (for that is the only way any man can learn of the father) come to Christ. Hearing and learning involves an act of our will.

So you would agree that all men can hear God?

 

[ladodgers6]

Illuminating our hearts with the knowledge of Christ so that we can repent and believe.

Okay, I agree that faith comes by hearing the word. So you agree that all men are illuminated by this knowledge?

 

[συνείδησις]

So you would agree that all men can hear God?

That is what Romans 1:19 says.