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@Radagast already showed above the NASB and many other versions get the Greek right.Do you believe that the NASB has more authority than the Greek text?
I showed from the text that Paul is referring to two groups.
Like I said, God created Lucifer, the light bearer. The anointed cherub that covers.
Lucifer became Satan, the enemy.
JLB
Has God been eternally aware (foreknowing) that this "conversion" of Lucifer to Satan (of sorts) would take place? Specifically prior to creating Lucifer?
This is a wrong assumption. But rather than defending that, let us look at scripture.The logical conclusion of "Man makes choices and God makes choices based on what a man does." is that God does not know the future, that foreknowledge is excluded from the omniscience of God, neither could God's knowledge choices be in harmony with His attribute of immutability.
This was not God's opinion of man. It is, however, an example of intellectual suicide. Man is free but man is not free."...we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined. - John Calvin from Bondage and Liberation of the Will, pg. 69-70
Chapter IX: Of Free Will
1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil (Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuturonomy 30:19; Isaiah 7:11-12†; John 5:40†; James 4:7†).
2.
This is a good example of isolating individual scriptures to form a theology foreign to the writers of the Bible. To do this, verses need to be taken out of the context of the whole of the writers's thinking. It is also completely divorced from real life. It attributes nothing good to God and removes the responsibility of choice from man. It also condemns man accusing him of evil and we know who likes to take that job. Various verses that completely counter this are totally ignored. In any case, the author(s) made up this theology totally outside of a working relationship with God. There are no marks of love for God or man in any of this. Glad I never heard any of this when I was starting to walk with the Lord. I can see how believing this would really block a man from coming to know God. It directly attacks the character of God as well as man.Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God (Eccl 7:29; Genesis 1:26; Philippians 2:13‡; Colossians 3:10†); but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it (Genesis 2:16-17; 3:6).
3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation (Romans 5:6; 8:7; John 6:44, 65†; 15:5): so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good (Romans 3:10, 12), and dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1, 5; Colossians 2:13), is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto (John 6:44, 65; 3:3, 5-6†; Ephesians 2:2-5; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Titus 3:3-5).
4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin (Colossians 1:13; John 8:34, 36; Romans 6:6-7†); and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good (Philippians 2:13; Romans 6:18, 22); yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil (Galatians 5:17; Romans 7:15, 18-19, 21, 23; 1 John 1:8†, 10).
5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only (Ephesians 4:13; Hebrews 12:23; 1 John 3:2; Jude 24; Revelation 21:27†).
—Westminster Confession of Faith (1643-49)
You can also refuse to do anything despite him trying to help you. The gifts and callings of God can be refused or wasted.For more confirmation, faith comes through HIM alone.
Every pure and perfect gift comes down from the Father.
Acts 3:16
And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
James 1:16-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
James is warning us not to be deceived about God's gifts to us.
Without Him you can do nothing.
What do you think this is supposed to say? Does she do this the whole life of the child including when he is 40 and she is 70? What about other choices she thinks will do him harm? Does she lock him so he never makes a false choice?The mother obviously runs and stops the child. Anyone who believes God, to honor free will above the safety and security of Love, suggests that the mother lets the child run into the street and be killed. 1 cor 13 says that Love always protects and keeps no record of wrongs, and yet you claim that God loves those He chooses not to protect [from Hell] and keeps a record of their wrongs, condemning them to hell. You cannot reconcile free will with Scripture. At best, you simply must pick and choose which verses fit your narrative.
This is a wrong assumption. But rather than defending that, let us look at scripture.
These are clear descriptions of God seeking information. What can we learn from this? Do not assume you understand the foreknowledge of God such that you can build a case on it. Also, you see clearly here that God looks at man's choices and makes his own based on the man's choices. That is my position and it is born out in scripture.
This was not God's opinion of man. It is, however, an example of intellectual suicide. Man is free but man is not free.
This is a good example of isolating individual scriptures to form a theology foreign to the writers of the Bible. To do this, verses need to be taken out of the context of the whole of the writers's thinking. It is also completely divorced from real life. It attributes nothing good to God and removes the responsibility of choice from man. It also condemns man accusing him of evil and we know who likes to take that job. Various verses that completely counter this are totally ignored. In any case, the author(s) made up this theology totally outside of a working relationship with God. There are no marks of love for God or man in any of this. Glad I never heard any of this when I was starting to walk with the Lord. I can see how believing this would really block a man from coming to know God. It directly attacks the character of God as well as man.
I presented you with scripture where God was looking for information. Why can't you answer those scriptures?Nothing but insults and opinion, lacking in substance, and validity.I see style in your writing, silver tongued wordsmith capable of tearing down with rhetoric, but sadly not using it for the glory of God. Lord have mercy!
I presented you with scripture where God was looking for information. Why can't you answer those scriptures?
I presented you with scripture where God was looking for information. Why can't you answer those scriptures?
It does not. But the matter is for grown-ups and not children in their understanding.I saw your two "proof texts".
Kinda rips the "omniscience of God" to shreads.
If you don't provide the text or a link then my answer will be "no it does not" since there is nothing presented that shows this.It also means that Isa. 46:9-10 lie!
Again, it does not. But the understanding is for adults, not children.Why would God need to "go see"? Kinda rips the belief that God is omnipresent.
Same as above. I am not doing your homework. So I will just say that no information presented here says that the Bible lies.It means that Jer. 23:23-24 and Psa. 139: 7-10 lie too.
Does this date you?What was it Desi Arnez said?
"Ay yi yi"
God Bless
There are no insults there. You just imagine it. You quote the scripture in isolation. Stop doing that. How you read it we cannot judge except by how you quote it....isolated verses. Talk about whole chapters. I offered a single quote that is not changed by reading the text. They are direct quotes from what God said.Why would I want to after your pages of insults? Why would I want to do a Bible study with you, knowing how you will reply? I do not read the Scriptures in isolation, among other things, it would require working through surrounding context (and greater context) and slowly going through the process of exposition. And this would be an unfruitful event with an Open View Theist. So, no thank you.
It does not. But the matter is for grown-ups and not children in their understanding.
If you don't provide the text or a link then my answer will be "no it does not" since there is nothing presented that shows this.
Again, it does not. But the understanding is for adults, not children.
Same as above. I am not doing your homework. So I will just say that no information presented here says that the Bible lies.
Does this date you?
Why would I want to after your pages of insults?
There are no insults there. You just imagine it. You quote the scripture in isolation. Stop doing that. How you read it we cannot judge except by how you quote it....isolated verses. Talk about whole chapters. I offered a single quote that is not changed by reading the text. They are direct quotes from what God said.
But if you do not want to talk to someone who does not agree with you, what can I do? I am sure there are those who are not very well educated in these matters who are easier for you to tackle. Since your post consisted mainly of what others wrote, I assume you are not used to doing your own defense and so I can see how this is a challenge. I do not generally quote what others write in a post besides the Bible. I think for myself.
Ah yes, jeering at others is common for some teams.Again, as I have said to countless others, your funny.
I find it a cowards way to simply put a chapter and verse with no thought as to how it deals with the matter. IT is like "so there" in response hoping the other does NOT look it up. And I know that nothing in the Bible lies.Can't look at the scriptures w/o somebody posting them for you.
Untrue. But the scriptures I post show that the position the other took is wrong. It is simply wrong.Well, I'll say one thing, one was right when they said:
Nothing but insults in your last post.
You write a nasty post and think saying "God bless" makes it OK??God Bless
This does not make it better eitherTill all are one.
Oh please, do you have amnesia? Collect your posts in this thread alone and read, and do try considering others in the process.
Proverbs 16:18 "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."
But the matter is for grown-ups and not children in their understanding.
And you accuse me of insulting. You ask me if I have amnesia as though something is wrong with my mind. And you think I am insulting you.Oh please, do you have amnesia? Collect your posts in this thread alone and read, and do try considering others in the process.
Proverbs 16:18 "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."
This was not directed at you. Where do you think it was? There is no "you are a child" like "do you have amnesia" which was an insult. Paul wrote that the believers ought to desire the meat and not the milk. Was he insulting them?I agree.
Insulting me calling me:
"children in their understanding".
Do you want to say that to the warrior who asked me if I have amnesia instead of me? Don't you think the gospels were all written by grown-up mature adults in their thinking?Need I say more?
"Do not personally attack (insult, belittle, mock, ridicule) other members or groups of members on CF. Address only the content of the post and not the poster."
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