Problem with Borderline Personality disorders

[Radrook]

The problem is that the person suffering from such a disorder tends not to identify himself as having any disorder at all. That means that suggestions that he or she seek treatment will often be met with a stiff resistance because they are perceived to be insults or unwarranted criticisms of a mere idiosyncrasy.

For they professional it's like trying to identify a transitional merging area as either too white or too black or even as being grey at all. Where does indeed variety become abnormal? Where it interferes with a person's ability to function productively in society?

Unfortunately, that rule can't be used because there are borderlines who are very productive in society while being obnoxious. So their success might reinforce their idea that they are OK and that the ones who are striving to help them are simply irrational nitpickers motivated by envy.

In contrast a full blown obsessive person knows that something is wrong and will be more prone to seek help and to appreciate the help that is being offered or suggested.

 

[stephen583]

In contrast a full blown obsessive person knows that something is wrong and will be more prone to seek help and to appreciate the help that is being offered or suggested.

Someone suffering from a "full blown" psychosis isn't aware of much of anything at all. They aren't even coherent, or aware of their surroundings. It's like the old saying goes, "Neurotics build castles in the air, and psychotics live in them". So expecting any co-operation in treatment from a "full blown" psychotic is pretty hopeless, which is why they are customarily involuntarily committed to psychiatric institutions in most states. Although there are lot's of them incarcerated in jails nowadays as well.

Full blown psychosis is actually pretty rare. Most schizophrenics are "borderline" cases, meaning they are subject to "episodes" in which schizophrenic behavior is more pronounced, such as hearing voices or vocalizing thoughts.. but at other times they may appear to be quite normal, even without medication.

A "full blown" schizophrenic is the old guy walking around day after day, in circles in a supermarket parking lot with no shirt on, mumbling to himself, completely unaware of his surroundings. He's going to do the same thing whether it's night or day, or whether it's snowing, or not. They are about one in a million.

 

[Radrook]

Someone suffering from a "full blown" psychosis isn't aware of much of anything at all. They aren't even coherent, or aware of their surroundings. It's like the old saying goes, "Neurotics build castles in the air, and psychotics live in them". So expecting any co-operation in treatment from a "full blown" psychotic is pretty hopeless, which is why they are customarily involuntarily committed to psychiatric institutions in most states.

Full blown psychosis is actually pretty rare. Most schizophrenics are "borderline" cases, meaning they are subject to "episodes" in which schizophrenic behavior is more pronounced, such as hearing voices or vocalizing thoughts.. but at other times they may appear to be quite normal, even without medication.

A "full blown" schizophrenic is the old guy walking around day after day, in circles in a supermarket parking lot with no shirt on, mumbling to himself, completely unaware of his surroundings. He's going to do the same thing whether it's night or day, or whether it's snowing, or not. They are about one in a million.

You are giving more meaning to the term full blown than I intended.

 

[DaisyDay]

Psychosis is something else altogether. Borderlines are not psychotic (or if they have an episode, that may not necessarily be related). Schizophrenia is also different.

Maybe I'm just going by the BPD in my life, but it seems to be more of an emotional disregulation than a mental disorder. And I believe that Radrook is correct that there is a spectrum to this disorder.

The problem is that the person suffering from such a disorder tends not to identify himself as having any disorder at all.

Not only that, but there is also the hypersensitivity to criticism such that any mild remark may be interpreted as condemnation and a reason to abandon them...It's a challenge.

 

[Alice the Sister]

Maybe I'm just going by the BPD in my life, but it seems to be more of an emotional disregulation than a mental disorder. And I believe that Radrook is correct that there is a spectrum to this disorder.

Emotional dysregulation is at the center of a lot of mood disorders, which are very much mental.

There is definitely various intensities by which BPD presents itself. That's one of the things I learned in trying to get disability and having Borderline.

A lot of Borderline people have a hard time getting diagnosed for two reasons. Some Docs are hesitant to diagnose people with it because they know it is almost like a death sentence, and other docs won't want to work with them. Second, because sometimes you're dissociating so heavily and feel so empty inside you have a really hard time conveying to your doctor anything is even wrong because you distance yourself from your feelings and can't relay them to a doctor when the time comes.

 

[bhsmte]

The problem is that the person suffering from such a disorder tends not to identify himself as having any disorder at all. That means that suggestions that he or she seek treatment will often be met with a stiff resistance because they are perceived to be insults or unwarranted criticisms of a mere idiosyncrasy.

For they professional it's like trying to identify a transitional merging area as either too white or too black or even as being grey at all. Where does indeed variety become abnormal? Where it interferes with a person's ability to function productively in society?

Unfortunately, that rule can't be used because there are borderlines who are very productive in society while being obnoxious. So their success might reinforce their idea that they are OK and that the ones who are striving to help them are simply irrational nitpickers motivated by envy.

In contrast a full blown obsessive person knows that something is wrong and will be more prone to seek help and to appreciate the help that is being offered or suggested.

Very good description, I lived with a borderline for a long time.

Borderline's do come in all shapes and sizes, with specific dominant behavioral traits that are unique to each, while still having the core traits to identify them as borderlines.

You are also correct, that borderlines are much less likely to acknowledge and seek help for the havoc they tend to create in the lives of those close to them. They have a habit of "therapist shopping". They can actually fool therapists for a period of time, in getting them to acknowledge they are the actual victim. When the therapist figures out the truth though, the borderlines leaves that therapist and finds another one, that will believe their story. The person I knew, went through 8 therapists in less than 2 years.

 

[bhsmte]

Psychosis is something else altogether. Borderlines are not psychotic (or if they have an episode, that may not necessarily be related). Schizophrenia is also different.

Maybe I'm just going by the BPD in my life, but it seems to be more of an emotional disregulation than a mental disorder. And I believe that Radrook is correct that there is a spectrum to this disorder.

Not only that, but there is also the hypersensitivity to criticism such that any mild remark may be interpreted as condemnation and a reason to abandon them...It's a challenge.

In general, borderlines have an extremely difficult time, acknowledging responsibility for their own actions. It is far too painful to be accountable, so some will manufacture their own reality, to place blame on others.

 

[Sheep4Christ]

Someone suffering from a "full blown" psychosis isn't aware of much of anything at all. They aren't even coherent, or aware of their surroundings. It's like the old saying goes, "Neurotics build castles in the air, and psychotics live in them". So expecting any co-operation in treatment from a "full blown" psychotic is pretty hopeless, which is why they are customarily involuntarily committed to psychiatric institutions in most states. Although there are lot's of them incarcerated in jails nowadays as well.

Full blown psychosis is actually pretty rare. Most schizophrenics are "borderline" cases, meaning they are subject to "episodes" in which schizophrenic behavior is more pronounced, such as hearing voices or vocalizing thoughts.. but at other times they may appear to be quite normal, even without medication.

A "full blown" schizophrenic is the old guy walking around day after day, in circles in a supermarket parking lot with no shirt on, mumbling to himself, completely unaware of his surroundings. He's going to do the same thing whether it's night or day, or whether it's snowing, or not. They are about one in a million.

Hi. What does vocalizing thoughts mean?

 

[bhsmte]

Psychosis is something else altogether. Borderlines are not psychotic (or if they have an episode, that may not necessarily be related). Schizophrenia is also different.

Maybe I'm just going by the BPD in my life, but it seems to be more of an emotional disregulation than a mental disorder. And I believe that Radrook is correct that there is a spectrum to this disorder.

Not only that, but there is also the hypersensitivity to criticism such that any mild remark may be interpreted as condemnation and a reason to abandon them...It's a challenge.

Your last statement is one of the classic signs of a borderline. They can interpret the most meaningless comment, as a personal insult to themselves.

They have radar that is highly tuned and working overtime. This is why, they will one week put someone up on a pedestal and the next week they are calling them evil. It takes very little, to drastically alter their perception of someone.

 

[DaisyDay]

In general, borderlines have an extremely difficult time, acknowledging responsibility for their own actions. It is far too painful to be accountable, so some will manufacture their own reality, to place blame on others.

Yeah, I think that's the reflex, and BPDs have it in spades. I think we all have it to some extent until we grow up.* When they get a better sense of self and become less fearful, they can overcome this, but it takes conscious effort.


*I used to sit next to someone working the IT help desk, and it was funny how so many people would tend to lie and not answer the most prosaic questions about what led up to problem they were calling about so it could be fixed - because they didn't want to be held responsible (even though no one was going to try).

 

[bhsmte]

Yeah, I think that's the reflex, and I think we all have it to some extent until we grow up.* When they get a better sense of self and less fearful, they can overcome this.


*I used to sit next to someone working the IT help desk, and it was funny how so many people would tend to lie and not answer the most prosaic questions about what lead up to problem they were calling about so it could be fixed - because they didn't want to be held responsible (even though no one was going to try).

Yes, we all have the "denial" reflex that engaged to protect our own psyche. The difference between people with normal psyches vs a borderline, is normal people will quickly come to realize, it is too painful to keep denying this, when it is so obvious what reality is.

With a borderline, they never get to the point, of it being too painful to maintain denial of reality and this is why they have to create their own version of reality and why their psychological defense mechanisms, are so robust.

 

[Radrook]

Very good description, I lived with a borderline for a long time.

Borderline's do come in all shapes and sizes, with specific dominant behavioral traits that are unique to each, while still having the core traits to identify them as borderlines.

You are also correct, that borderlines are much less likely to acknowledge and seek help for the havoc they tend to create in the lives of those close to them. They have a habit of "therapist shopping". They can actually fool therapists for a period of time, in getting them to acknowledge they are the actual victim. When the therapist figures out the truth though, the borderlines leaves that therapist and finds another one, that will believe their story. The person I knew, went through 8 therapists in less than 2 years.

A borderline multiple personality disorder condition is especially problematic. The shift is equally as dramatic but doesn't involve the person losing a total sense of consciousness or identity. One moment you are interacting with a person who is docile and jovial and totally reasonable and the next you are dealing with a veritable Satan himself vehemently contradicting or disclaiming all that was previously stated before all within the span of an hour. Such persons can go unnoticed and it can be attributed to simple mood swings. The difference is that a mood swing doesn't involve such a drastic denial of all recent things that were so fervently stated. Of course the difference is for a professional to determine but one living with such an individual, such as children and husband know that iot is far more than just a swing of a mood.

 

[stephen583]

Hi. What does vocalizing thoughts mean?

It's one of the main symptoms of borderline schizophrenia. You've no doubt walked past an individual on the street who is compulsively talking out loud to "no one" in particular. It's similar to "OCD".

A persistent thought is continuously expressed verbally, even when no one else is listening. Sometimes expressing a paranoid delusion, but not in every case. Occasionally the rant is completely incoherent, like "Mary, I told you not to let those chickens get out" !.. Not all borderline schizophrenics manifest this behavior, but many of them do.

Schizophrenia can involve "episodic" behavior. On any given day a schizophrenic may present a very normal demeanor, but when the condition becomes aggravated, or the individual goes off medication.. a schizophrenic episode can become full blown.

It's rare that a "borderline" schizophrenic remains in a permanent "episodic" state, which is why their condition is clinically referred to as being "borderline".

 

[stephen583]

The reason many people suffering from mental illness stop taking their prescribed medication is this. There actually is no "Happy Pill". Anti-depressants and mood stabilizing drugs leave a patient emotionally "flat".

They don't suffer from manic depression, violent and combative behavior and the like, but they aren't able to feel "happiness" or contentment either. Their underlying emotional problems are masked, rather than resolved by psychotherapy. It's like removing all the color from the world, so everything is only seen in various shades of grey. That would be a pretty horrible way to live, wouldn't it ? You essentially become a zombie.

Some psychiatric patients even choose "self medication" with street drugs as an alternative to taking prescribed "mood stabilizers". It's well known that Freud himself was a strong advocate for using cocaine to treat mental illness.

Used periodically, strong drugs, such as acid, cocaine and methamphetamine can have the effect of overwhelming the synapses of the brain to the extent they create a sort of a "reset" condition.

In a recent American Medical Association (AMA) study, psilocybin acid (like that found in mushrooms) administered in very small doses under medical control was found to eliminate depression in chemotherapy patients by 80 percent. Same principle.

The problem with "self medicating" by using street drugs, is that they are highly addictive in their purest form, and in some cases they may even contain poisonous additives like arsenic. Meth dealers for instance are known to add "Raid" bug spray to some of their cheaper recipes. Prolonged use of this kind of meth eventually results in complete liver and kidney failure.. Killing the addict.

 

[Armoured]

The problem is that the person suffering from such a disorder tends not to identify himself as having any disorder at all. That means that suggestions that he or she seek treatment will often be met with a stiff resistance because they are perceived to be insults or unwarranted criticisms of a mere idiosyncrasy.

For they professional it's like trying to identify a transitional merging area as either too white or too black or even as being grey at all. Where does indeed variety become abnormal? Where it interferes with a person's ability to function productively in society?

Unfortunately, that rule can't be used because there are borderlines who are very productive in society while being obnoxious. So their success might reinforce their idea that they are OK and that the ones who are striving to help them are simply irrational nitpickers motivated by envy.

In contrast a full blown obsessive person knows that something is wrong and will be more prone to seek help and to appreciate the help that is being offered or suggested.

The difference between neurosis and psychosis

 

[stephen583]

The difference between neurosis and psychosis

I agree. Vladimir Putin is a classic case of "Megalomania" (a god complex) mixed with "narcissism" (simply defined as self love).

He exhibits a grandiose opinion of his own talents, and has a need to have others affirm this belief. He's also obsessed with his own physical appearance, and has been photographed on various occasions "shirtless" to show off his muscular form.

The scary thing about this particular mixture of psychosis is that if you look it up, you often as not find it accompanied by a picture of Adolf Hitler who shared some of these same characteristics.

 

[Sheep4Christ]

It's one of the main symptoms of borderline schizophrenia. You've no doubt walked past an individual on the street who is compulsively talking out loud to "no one" in particular. It's similar to "OCD".

A persistent thought is continuously expressed verbally, even when no one else is listening. Sometimes expressing a paranoid delusion, but not in every case. Occasionally the rant is completely incoherent, like "Mary, I told you not to let those chickens get out" !.. Not all borderline schizophrenics manifest this behavior, but many of them do.

Schizophrenia can involve "episodic" behavior. On any given day a schizophrenic may present a very normal demeanor, but when the condition becomes aggravated, or the individual goes off medication.. a schizophrenic episode can become full blown.

It's rare that a "borderline" schizophrenic remains in a permanent "episodic" state, which is why their condition is clinically referred to as being "borderline".

I've seen people do what you've described. Thanks for your explanation and responding to my question.

 

[stephen583]

There actually is no "Happy Pill".

The reason I made this statement was to inform and perhaps console those whose family members suffer from anxiety and manic depression there is a solution other than drugs.

Medication alone (like Prozac, Lexapro Lithium and Fluoxetene) are not "cure alls" for mental illness. Without psychotherapy to address the underlying cause of these disorders medication alone is inadequate.

I suffered myself from manic depression and a "passive-aggressive" personality disorder my entire life. I took all the medications listed above without being cured. BTW. A passive-aggressive disorder is where someone puts out a "submissive" demeanor (head down, no direct eye contact,inviting mistreatment by a perceived bully), and then I would retaliate violently, and naturally the crowd cheers. That's how PA works.

After a suicide by cop attempt in my house that involved a loaded handgun and a standoff, I was forced into psychotherapy by the court for one year. My psychiatrist worked through the underlying cause of my mental illness. A psychotic break occurred when I was around nine years old, when I discovered my older brother was sexually molesting my younger sister.

The psychiatrist explained that's why I was looking for monsters, only to destroy them. I was punishing my brother over and over again, family and society for being unjust.

During my last week of therapy, my psychiatrist "Michael" said our remaining time was short and he had something important he wanted to show me. I asked him "what" ? He held up a mirror in front my face, and asked me what do you see ? Of course I dismissed the trick and said, "Nuth'in.. just my face".

Mike said, "This is the real monster you've been trying to kill all these years.. You are the monster Steve, you're not the hero. You were only nine years old, and if no one would listen to you, there was nothing you could have done to save your sister from what your brother did". "Let it go".

I left the psych's office that day and stopped at a church where I took a solemn vow never again to raise my hand in vengeance against another human being. The demon was defeated and immediately fled. I was healed. In the last 20 years, I never again experienced manic depression, suicidal ideations, or a passive aggressive episode.. and I flushed all the mood stabilizing drugs down the toilet. I no longer needed them and haven't needed them since.

Mental illness does not have to be permanent, or end in institutionalization, or death. Recognize the demon. Take responsibility for giving him control over your life.. and repent. That's the cure, not medication.

 

[bhsmte]

The reason I made this statement was to inform and perhaps console those whose family members suffer from anxiety and manic depression there is a solution other than drugs.

Medication alone (like Prozac, Lexapro and Lithium) are not "cure alls" for mental illness. Without psychotherapy to address the underlying cause of these disorders, medication alone is often inadequate.

I suffered myself from manic depression and a "passive-aggressive" personality disorder my entire life. I took all the medications listed above without being cured. BTW. A passive-aggressive disorder is where someone puts out a "submissive" demeanor (inviting mistreatment by a perceived bully), and then retaliates violently, and naturally the crowd cheers.

After a suicide by cop attempt in my house that involved a loaded handgun I was forced into psychotherapy by the court for one year. My psychiatrist worked through the underlying cause of my mental illness. A psychotic break occurred when I was around nine years old, when I discovered my older brother was sexually molesting my younger sister. The psychiatrist explained that's why I was creating monsters, only to destroy them. I was punishing my brother over and over again, family and society for being unjust.

During my last week of therapy, my psychiatrist "Michael" said our remaining time was short and he had something important he wanted to show me. I asked him "what" ? and he held up a mirror in front my face. He asked me what do you see ? Of course I dismissed the trick and said, "Nuth'in.. just my face".

Mike said, "This is the real monster you've been trying to kill all these years.. You are the monster Steve, you're not the hero. You were only nine years old, and if no one would listen to you, there was nothing you could have done to save your sister from what your brother did". "Let it go".

I left the psych's office that day and stopped at a church where I took a solemn vow never again to raise my hand in vengeance against another human being. The demon was defeated and fled immediately. I was cured. In the last 20 years, I never again experienced manic depression, suicidal ideations, or a passive aggressive episode.. and I flushed all the mood stabilizing drugs down the toilet. I no longer needed them.

Mental illness does not have to be permanent, or end in institutionalization, or death. Recognize the demon. Take responsibility for giving him control over your life.. and repent. That's the cure, not medication.

In general, mental health conditions that are driven by brain chemistry issues, do much better with the right medications.

Conditions such as borderline personality disorder and many other conditions, are typically not treated with medication.

 

[stephen583]

I too believe there are brain chemistry issues that can be treated with medication. However, psychic breaks like the one I experienced at age nine require psychotherapy rather than drugs.

Actually what happens with a psychic break at such a young age is that the maturity process becomes frozen. I was essentially a 30 year old man operating with the emotional capacity of a nine year old. At least that's the way my psychiatrist explained it to me.

Without treatment, and with time, the psychosis can become an integral part of an individuals personality. That is to say it becomes "chronic". It's true when they say we are "the sum of our experiences".. but I also believe that psychotherapy and faith can change all that. At least to the extent the psychosis is under control without the need for constant medication. .