Problem of Evil?

[Moral Orel]

But that would cause all of humanity to be in danger of goi g to Hell. Why would God do that?

I dunno. Maybe God has munchausen by proxy.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

How so?

There are many things in the Bible that God ordered that are immoral. Such as genocide and slavery. But lets say I had a 6 yo daughter and I let an adult man rape her while I could have stopped him and gave my reason for this as I did not want to violate his free will or that eventually good will come of this. Would you think I was a good person? This is what God does every day if he exists. So if God exists, I want to know that but that does not mean I would follow him unless he convinces me that he is good as well. Bad things that happen like breaking an arm or losing a job s one thing but these terrible things that happen to people is another and is sufficient evidence to believe God is not good if He does in deed exist.

 

[Larniavc]

In all that God does, he does no one any wrong. God does send calamity into our lives and calamity is not good. But God is good and he does no wrong when he sends calamity into our lives.

But that does not make sense. If God sends a calamity to someone that is a bad thing. How can that be argued otherwise?

 

[Larniavc]

Torment"/punishment does nothing for the person experiencing the punishment. but it can help those still willing to possible accept God's charity to accept God's charity.

So God tortured man A to show man B how charitable God is.

That does not make a shred of sense. If I poke you in the eye to get Bill to like me that make me a jerk.

 

[Tree of Life]

But that does not make sense. If God sends a calamity to someone that is a bad thing. How can that be argued otherwise?

Generally speaking we could imagine many morally sufficient reasons for sending calamity. Perhaps the person deserved it.

 

[Larniavc]

Generally speaking we could imagine many morally sufficient reasons for sending calamity. Perhaps the person deserved it.

Possibly. But imagine the child with leukaemia. Do they deserve it?

 

[bling]

So God tortured man A to show man B how charitable God is.

That does not make a shred of sense. If I poke you in the eye to get Bill to like me that make me a jerk.

I am glad you want to be very logical about this.

Here in lies the problem:

An analogy:

You give your children a list of things you do not want them to do, but how do you convey the fact somethings are much worse to do them other things?

We have different degrees of “discipline” or punishments to convey what is a great offence severity to let them know and understand what is really bad. This is the best way for the child to realize the significance of the offence.

God as a Loving wonderful parent can easily forgive us, but forgiveness is a transaction requiring the receiver of the forgiveness to humbly accept that forgiveness as purely undeserved charity. Also, as a wonderful loving Parent, God needs to see to our Loving discipline if at all possible, for all the benefit disciplining provides. Refusing to humbly accept God’s Loving forgiveness and discipline results in us remaining under the threat of being “punished”.

If you are talking about Christ being tortured, humiliated and murdered, God did not do that, but God was willing to allow a willing Christ to go through all that out of Love for humans, to provide the only way followers could be fairly/justly disciplined for their sins without physically dying (empathetically being crucified with Christ).

If you are talking about children, God Loves, but allows them to go to hell (annihilation with maybe some torture for the really bad individuals), then you need to realize the following:

1. God gives the “punishment” for rebellious disobedience to: show the severity of sin and the Love found in his forgiveness.

2. If sin was not very significant then God’s forgiveness would not be very significant, so those forgiven by God would be forgiven of little and thus have little love.

3. The only way people can obtain an unbelievable huge Godly type Love is by accepting forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt (sins create such a debt), so they can have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

Those who refuse God’s charity to the point of never correctly accepting God’s charity, are beyond God’s helping them, since they refuse His help and God is not going to force His Love on someone refusing, since that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun (not Loving on God’s part nor the love received in such a way is not Godly type Love). These refusers of God’s Love would not be happy in heaven, since heaven is like one huge Love Feast, but only of Godly type Love, which the refuse does not want. There is really no-good place for those who do not like Godly type Love to go after death, but they can go to hell (annihilation) to show others, God is very serious about unforgiven sin and they need to not tarry in their acceptance.

How might you get people of their own free will to humbly accept forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt, so they could have this unbelievable huge Love?

 

[Tree of Life]

Possibly. But imagine the child with leukaemia. Do they deserve it?

No not necessarily. But there are many morally sufficient reasons that a good God might allow evil.

 

[Larniavc]

I am glad you want to be very logical about this.

Here in lies the problem:

An analogy:

You give your children a list of things you do not want them to do, but how do you convey the fact somethings are much worse to do them other things?

We have different degrees of “discipline” or punishments to convey what is a great offence severity to let them know and understand what is really bad. This is the best way for the child to realize the significance of the offence.

God as a Loving wonderful parent can easily forgive us, but forgiveness is a transaction requiring the receiver of the forgiveness to humbly accept that forgiveness as purely undeserved charity. Also, as a wonderful loving Parent, God needs to see to our Loving discipline if at all possible, for all the benefit disciplining provides. Refusing to humbly accept God’s Loving forgiveness and discipline results in us remaining under the threat of being “punished”.

If you are talking about Christ being tortured, humiliated and murdered, God did not do that, but God was willing to allow a willing Christ to go through all that out of Love for humans, to provide the only way followers could be fairly/justly disciplined for their sins without physically dying (empathetically being crucified with Christ).

If you are talking about children, God Loves, but allows them to go to hell (annihilation with maybe some torture for the really bad individuals), then you need to realize the following:

1. God gives the “punishment” for rebellious disobedience to: show the severity of sin and the Love found in his forgiveness.

2. If sin was not very significant then God’s forgiveness would not be very significant, so those forgiven by God would be forgiven of little and thus have little love.

3. The only way people can obtain an unbelievable huge Godly type Love is by accepting forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt (sins create such a debt), so they can have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

Those who refuse God’s charity to the point of never correctly accepting God’s charity, are beyond God’s helping them, since they refuse His help and God is not going to force His Love on someone refusing, since that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun (not Loving on God’s part nor the love received in such a way is not Godly type Love). These refusers of God’s Love would not be happy in heaven, since heaven is like one huge Love Feast, but only of Godly type Love, which the refuse does not want. There is really no-good place for those who do not like Godly type Love to go after death, but they can go to hell (annihilation) to show others, God is very serious about unforgiven sin and they need to not tarry in their acceptance.

How might you get people of their own free will to humbly accept forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt, so they could have this unbelievable huge Love?

You can’t just put the word ‘loving’ in front of the word ‘God’ and expect that to be in anyway and explanation for God inflicting calamity on people.

 

[Larniavc]

How might you get people of their own free will to humbly accept forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt, so they could have this unbelievable huge Love?

Cancel the debt. Problem solved.

 

[Larniavc]

No not necessarily. But there are many morally sufficient reasons that a good God might allow evil.

But not that one, though.

 

[Tree of Life]

But not that one, though.

No probably not.

 

[Tree of Life]

Cancel the debt. Problem solved.

What does it cost to cancel a debt?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

What does it cost to cancel a debt?

The owner of the debt gets to determine that.

 

[Tree of Life]

The owner of the debt gets to determine that.

Doesn’t it cost the amount of the debt? Plus, perhaps, interest? The owner eats the cost if the debt is cancelled.

 

[bling]

You can’t just put the word ‘loving’ in front of the word ‘God’ and expect that to be in anyway and explanation for God inflicting calamity on people.

Out of every tragedy good can and should happen, but if these opportunities are not ceased then the opportunity is lost.

 

[bling]

Cancel the debt. Problem solved.

The "debt" can easily be unconditionally forgiven, but to get the benefit out of the debt being created in the first place the debtor must willingly accept the forgiveness of the debt as pure undeserved charity.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Doesn’t it cost the amount of the debt? Plus, perhaps, interest? The owner eats the cost if the debt is cancelled.

Yep, that is the decision of the debt owner. What does it cost God to forgive our sins without payment? He asks that of us. We are to forgive others without any payment.

 

[Larniavc]

Out of every tragedy good can and should happen, but if these opportunities are not ceased then the opportunity is lost.

But the tragedies where no good happens are simply calamity.

Stating that calamity is to cause a down stream ‘good’ is no good to the person who is singled out by God to make a point to somebody else: that’s evil.

 

[Tree of Life]

Yep, that is the decision of the debt owner. What does it cost God to forgive our sins without payment? He asks that of us. We are to forgive others without any payment.

I think the answer is seen in Christ and him crucified. That is the cost that God himself paid to forgive sinners.