• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Problem of Evil?

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
It tkes an extremely strong commitment every second for as long as the torture is endured.
You seriously believe being tortured for about 7 hours is worse than a Vietnam POW being tortured for years in a prison not knowing if they are going to die or not just because Jesus is dying for bad people all the while knowing he won’t die and will rule the universe forever?

I would also like to add that the torture I will receive from Jesus after I die will be much worse because I cannot stop it and I know it will go on forever.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Larniavc
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Good question because our universe only appears to have time.
God's foreknowledge would suggest He is outside of time, knowing man's future.
It has been show repeatedly with our science that time is relative, so if there was an all powerful God time should be completely relative to Him.
No, time is a property of this universe. It does not appear so it has been demonstrated to be so.

This is all just assertion. Show me it is possible to be outside of time.
 
Upvote 0

Larniavc

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."
Jul 14, 2015
14,727
9,000
52
✟385,322.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
This is the reason God created humans with a very limited amount of autonomous free will.

Normally I would just ask questions but here is what I support at this point in my spiritual growth:

1. Time is relative, God could have created the existence of time for humans, and God is not limited by man’s time.

2. God exist outside of human time, yet exist simultaneously within human present time.

3. God communicates with man in words that fit man’s understanding like the four corners of the earth, the sun rising and setting, and the future for God. In other words, God does not convey the idea of time being relative for God or God being outside of time.

4. There is no reason for time to not be: totally relative to God.

5. God knows what is happening in some distant Galaxy (billion light years away) at the same time knowing what is happening on earth.

6. Just as God knows simultaneous what is happening throughout space instantly, God would also know what is happening throughout time in the Space Time Continuum.

7. God exist throughout time, so His existence at the end of time could “communicate” within Himself to His existence at the beginning of time.

8. History is fixed; nothing can change what has already happened. Even If God wanted to destroy the first Adam and Eve and start over with a second Adam and Eve there would always have been a first Adam and Eve, even if God was the only being to know of them.

9. God’s existence at the end of man’s time would know historically everything that happened throughout human existence.

10. The whole history of humans would be “communicated” back to God at the beginning of time as pure history from God’s existence at the end of time.

11. God from the beginning of human time (when every that was) knows all human future as pure history, so God knows all human’s future.

12. Since God’s existence at the end of human time and knows everything humans did historically, it cannot be changed and God “communicating” that history to Himself at the beginning of time means nothing can change in human existence from the way it “did” happen for God’s existence at the end of time.

13. The moment God decides to make a particular human (which can be at the beginning of human time) that human has a future know as history by God’s existence at the end of time.

14. If God decides never to make a particular human (there could be a virtual infinite number of these) than that never to exist human has no future and thus no history to be known by God.

15. Just because the history of a made choice is known, including a choice already made by God, does not mean that choice was not an autonomous free will choice. We cannot proof a former historic choice was not an autonomous free will choice, just because we now know historically what was chosen.

16. Again, just because God at the end of time knows all human choices as historical, does not mean some of those choices were not autonomous free will choices.

17. It also logically follows: if the existence of God at the end of time communicates to himself at the beginning of time all human history as set in stone, does not mean some human choices made could not be autonomous free will choices by the human.

18. If God is never ever going to produce a specific individual with ability to make just a very few autonomous free will choices, God would not know exactly the choices that specific individual would make if he/she were made, but would only know all the possible choices. That never to be made individual has no future to be known and if the limited choices are truly to be that individual’s autonomous free will choice there is no way to know, unless that individual is going to be made. God would know human seemingly free will choice that are the result of the person’s environment and genes (programming) which are most of what we consider to be free will choices (like the flavor of ice-cream on choses on a specific day), but those are not the choices which matter.

19. Once you agree to the concept of God being outside of time (existing throughout human time) and the definition of autonomous free will, all my ideas logically follow.
That’s a significant amount of assertions. Can you support that with evidence?
 
Upvote 0

Par5

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,013
653
79
LONDONDERRY
✟69,175.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
That is the same God just working from heaven instead of on earth with us. We need Him really close.
I thought Christians believed that their god is everywhere, omnipresent.
How close do you want?
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,812
1,921
✟989,707.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You seriously believe being tortured for about 7 hours is worse than a Vietnam POW being tortured for years in a prison not knowing if they are going to die or not just because Jesus is dying for bad people all the while knowing he won’t die and will rule the universe forever?

I would also like to add that the torture I will receive from Jesus after I die will be much worse because I cannot stop it and I know it will go on forever.
Yes, because the Vietnam POW cannot leave at any time, he is not saying no every second.
BUT, even if there are worse experiences like what some might experience before annihilation in hell, Jesus is not taking the "punishment" a person receives for sinning and refusing to accept God forgiveness, but Jesus is experiencing the discipline of a forgiven child since that is what a child needs along with forgiveness. The Christian is being empathetically crucified with Christ as his discipline for sinning and not his punishment for sinning.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,812
1,921
✟989,707.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No, time is a property of this universe. It does not appear so it has been demonstrated to be so.

This is all just assertion. Show me it is possible to be outside of time.
We do not know much about the Spiritual universe. Even in the universe science exists in does not rule out the existence of worm holes.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,812
1,921
✟989,707.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That’s a significant amount of assertions. Can you support that with evidence?
I am giving an alternative way it “could” work and humans still be able to make some autonomous free will choices and still be consistent with the rest of scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Larniavc

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."
Jul 14, 2015
14,727
9,000
52
✟385,322.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
I am giving an alternative way it “could” work and humans still be able to make some autonomous free will choices and still be consistent with the rest of scripture.
No offence but that means you can’t.
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
We do not know much about the Spiritual universe. Even in the universe science exists in does not rule out the existence of worm holes.
What is the spiritual universe? How do you know it exists?
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Yes, because the Vietnam POW cannot leave at any time, he is not saying no every second.
That makes it worse not better.
BUT, even if there are worse experiences like what some might experience before annihilation in hell, Jesus is not taking the "punishment" a person receives for sinning and refusing to accept God forgiveness, but Jesus is experiencing the discipline of a forgiven child since that is what a child needs along with forgiveness. The Christian is being empathetically crucified with Christ as his discipline for sinning and not his punishment for sinning.
Well, that is your theology, other Christians disagree with you.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,812
1,921
✟989,707.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
But that’s a supposition. Do you have any evidence to support it?
You presented the idea: God can’t ever have that kind of relationship with a human. Any given human was created by God. And God knows every thought and deed that person will ever have and commit at every point in time.

Accordingly, from the perspective of someone who knows what we will think and do before we are aware of it our selves we ARE indistinguishable from preprogrammed robots.
I was just showing how God can be all knowing and humans could still have free will.
 
Upvote 0

Larniavc

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."
Jul 14, 2015
14,727
9,000
52
✟385,322.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
You presented the idea: God can’t ever have that kind of relationship with a human. Any given human was created by God. And God knows every thought and deed that person will ever have and commit at every point in time.

Accordingly, from the perspective of someone who knows what we will think and do before we are aware of it our selves we ARE indistinguishable from preprogrammed robots.
I was just showing how God can be all knowing and humans could still have free will.
No, I get that God can be all knowing but humans still have free will.

But from God’s point of view we are simply automatons behaving and reacting in a way that can never surprise him because he already knows what you will do because from his perspective it has already happened millions of times.
 
Upvote 0