Problem of Evil?

[Tree of Life]

It can’t cost God unless he allows it to cost him. How can he be held to cost by his own creation?

Only if he voluntarily and graciously commits himself to his creation in some way. Then he is bound by his own word - which is of course his own choice.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Maybe you’ve never forgiven anyone of anything. I recently had a contractor rob me of $1000 and I decided not to pursue the matter, but to forgive him and let it go. Last I checked, it cost me $1000 to forgive him. Forgiveness hurts!

Yet you got to decide to forgive the debt. How would god be hurt by forgiving our sin. Like I have said three times. God expects us to forgive others without payment, why is he unwilling to do the same?

 

[Larniavc]

Then he is bound by his own word - which is of course his own choice.

Not so. God has changed his mind in the past.

 

[Tree of Life]

Yet you got to decide to forgive the debt. How would god be hurt by forgiving our sin. Like I have said three times. God expects us to forgive others without payment, why is he unwilling to do the same?

I am saying there is no such thing as free forgiveness under any circumstance. “Without payment” means it doesn’t cost the one being forgiven. But it always costs the one doing the forgiving.

 

[Tree of Life]

Not so. God has changed his mind in the past.

How so?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I am saying there is no such thing as free forgiveness under any circumstance. “Without payment” means it doesn’t cost the one being forgiven. But it always costs the one doing the forgiving.

Why could not God have forgiven us without payment from us? How does it hurt God to do this?

 

[Tree of Life]

Why could not God have forgiven us without payment from us? How does it hurt God to do this?

God does forgive us without payment from us. But it costs him.

 

[bling]

That clearly shows how people should forgive the debt of others exactly like the King did (clearly analogous to God as stated by Jesus).

If the King can forgive the debt therefor God can. Yet he does not.

God could have humans become like himself without any effort. My understanding is that God’s power is unrestrained.

I use the parable in Matt. 18 extensively as a proof text to show how forgiveness, Love, atonement, grace, and mercy are not one-sided actions but require action on both the giver and receiver to complete the transaction.

This parable is not explained well by many commentaries.

Is accepting forgiveness as pure charity required to complete the transaction?

What part does man play in his salvation?

How can a person be forgiven by God and still owe God what God forgave?

Christ explains how God’s forgiveness works by giving God’s forgiveness in a Parable form to explain how we are to forgive, but you are going to have think and study what he says:

Matt. 18: 21-35

Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).

I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly and the parable is the follow-up question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).

This Parable will then come out of what is on the hearts of the apostles right after Jesus completes His answer.

As you asked: “ What keeps people from taking advantage of God and in this case you”?

So first you have to figure out what the disciples are going to be thinking with Jesus’ answer?

I would suggest: when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77 they are thinking: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?” (People always think about how it will impact themselves.)

Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.

Here are some questions I have asked in the past:



The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.

The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, for our behavior will later refer, so is it referring to all other humans or just other Christian brothers?)

The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept the forgiveness as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?

The servant is asking to “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back even with 1000 years of time and the servant would know that, so is the servant lying with: “I’ll pay everything back”?

If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love) (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love be seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?

If “unconditional forgiveness” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?

Is there any other debt the servant owes, since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?

Does the servant still owe the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?

In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?

Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?



Christ’s parables address one area of how things work in the Kingdom, but may leave other areas unaddressed (it is only a short story), so we need to be cautious.

Lots of times you need to put yourself into the audience Jesus is addressing and try to be thinking: what they would be thinking about at the time, because Jesus addresses what is on the heart of the individual person(s) and not what has been verbalized (there are a dozen examples of this).



I did not really look at the details of the servant throwing the other servant in prison. There are always limits to parables, but look at the subtle differences between what the servants did and what the master did. The wicked servant only put the fellow servant in prison (no mention of torture this could be like Paul’s imprisonment) while the master had the wicked servant turned over to a person (being) for continuous torture?





Can we start with what we do agree with in this parable, just let me know yes or no:

1. The master is representing God in the Spiritual Kingdom?

2. The “turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” Represents Hell in the spiritual meaning?

3. The millions and millions of dollars represents spiritually the huge debt sin creates?

4. The wicked servant is a sinner?

5. The Master’s forgiveness of the servant’s debt is the same as God’s part in forgiving a sinner’s sins?

6. The servant’s debt was not forgiven, since in the end the master says, he is imprisoned for the debt?

7. The servant is lying when he says “I will pay everything back” since it is totally not possible?

8. The servant was asking for time and not forgiveness and gives no indication He accepted the forgiveness as charity?

If we agree with this we are 90% in agreement. The only question is: “Since the wicked servant still owes the master the huge debt after the master did his part of forgiving the wicked servant, what else must happen for the transaction of forgiveness to be fully completed?

 

[bling]

I don’t understand.

Tragedies are opportunities and we have lots of opportunities. It is not our job to make more opportunities but to secure the good that can come from these opportunities.

 

[bling]

Not for the individual. It’s only function is to motivate people to worship God.

Rather than force debt onto people why did God not encourage good behaviour with positive reinforcement?

Again, I has everything to do with man's objective (the initial objective is to obtain Godly type Love).
There is only one way that happens: "...he that is forgiven much Loves much...". To be forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt requires getting into debt (sinning). God does not like sin, but will allow humans to sin in order to form this huge debt. He is very willing to forgive, if you are willing to accept His forgiveness as pure charity. After you become a Christian sin loses its purpose, since you now have Godly type Love and just need to grow that Love with use.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

God does forgive us without payment from us. But it costs him.

What does it cost him? Jesus "sacrifice" was no sacrifice. He was god before and after his crucifixion. Humans give their lives for others knowing they will die forever. That is more of a sacrifice than what Jesus did. I will ask a fourth time, why does God requires us to forgive others without any penalty but He won't do that himself?

 

[cvanwey]

What does it cost him? Jesus "sacrifice" was no sacrifice. He was god before and after his crucifixion. Humans give their lives for others knowing they will die forever. That is more of a sacrifice than what Jesus did. I will ask a fourth time, why does God requires us to forgive others without any penalty but He won't do that himself?

Yea, this claim from theists seems to not follow logic. God clones Himself, sends the clone to earth. The clone dies, goes to hell, knowing He is already going to leave hell, after a couple days, and then returns where He came from.

Now compare that to an atheist, whom throws them self on top of a grenade to save the rest of their troops.

 

[bling]

Adding ‘lovingly’ in front of words does not make it so.

God is the very best parent and discipline done with Love and the best interest of the child is extremely beneficial (loving). The discipline can be hard to take at the time but accepted correctly results in a stronger relationship between parent and child.
Discipline:
1. is a deterrent to both the child being disciplined and others around the child.
2. shows the child how great the offence is.
3. Lets the child know his parent really Love him/her since negligent parents do not discipline their children properly when they have the chance.
4. It is a wonderful teaching moment especially of the parent goes through the disciplining with the child (like Christ being crucified with us).
5. It allows the child to put the offence behind him (he did the crime and did the time).

 

[bling]

What does it cost him? Jesus "sacrifice" was no sacrifice. He was god before and after his crucifixion. Humans give their lives for others knowing they will die forever. That is more of a sacrifice than what Jesus did. I will ask a fourth time, why does God requires us to forgive others without any penalty but He won't do that himself?

Jesus is 100% God and 100% human.

Yes, people do give up their lives for others and also go through a lot of hardships for others and we remember their sacrifice.

What does it take for a human to be severely tortured, humiliated and murdered by wicked people when at any time in the whole process that person could call and receive a multitude of help and bring severe punishment upon those torturing him? Jesus is not doing this for the “good” people on earth but just to possible help really bad people like the ones torturing Him.

People were saved without His going to the cross, but some of us (like myself) need what Jesus provided with His crucifixion to believe God’s Love is truly that great and I am truly needing help.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Yea, this claim from theists seems to not follow logic. God clones Himself, sends the clone to earth. The clone dies, goes to hell, knowing He is already going to leave hell, after a couple days, and then returns where He came from.

Now compare that to an atheist, whom throws them self on top of a grenade to save the rest of their troops.

They will say the sacrifice was infinite since He is infinite. Seems to me that makes the sacrifice less significant. I don't know.

 

[Tinker Grey]

They will say the sacrifice was infinite since He is infinite. Seems to me that makes the sacrifice less significant. I don't know.

In the thread discussing forgiveness (this one?), there was the assertion that forgiveness costs the forgiver. The analogy was of a theft of $1000. It strikes me (just as you seem to imply) that if I steal $1000 from the single mom on WIC that I'm doing considerable more harm than if I steal $1000 from Warren Buffet. How much less damage is anything I do to a tri-omni deity.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Jesus is 100% God and 100% human.

Yes, people do give up their lives for others and also go through a lot of hardships for others and we remember their sacrifice.

What does it take for a human to be severely tortured, humiliated and murdered by wicked people when at any time in the whole process that person could call and receive a multitude of help and bring severe punishment upon those torturing him? Jesus is not doing this for the “good” people on earth but just to possible help really bad people like the ones torturing Him.

People were saved without His going to the cross, but some of us (like myself) need what Jesus provided with His crucifixion to believe God’s Love is truly that great and I am truly needing help.

I know the theology. It is just not a big sacrifice if it is true in my opinion.

 

[cvanwey]

They will say the sacrifice was infinite since He is infinite. Seems to me that makes the sacrifice less significant. I don't know.

I don't know either. But it makes you wonder what differing set of assertions theists would instead argue for, had a differing set of claims rose above all others in popularity; for which the church decided to adopt and ultimately write about?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I don't know either. But it makes you wonder what differing set of assertions theists would instead argue for, had a differing set of claims rose above all others in popularity; for which the church decided to adopt and ultimately write about?

Right. They are all over the map anyway.

 

[Larniavc]

7. The servant is lying when he says “I will pay everything back” since it is totally not possible?

Disagree. The debt is fabricated by God as a motivation for humans to accept his forgiveness. If God had not fabricated the debt in the first place there would be no debt.