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Pro-Lifers Read.

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Trashionista

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It grieves me to know that you think that abortion being wrong is a "BS answer". That kind of response gives an effect that makes me assume you do not take this subject as serious as it really is. I hope you do take it very seriously, however, there are human lives being destroyed on a whim.

And abortion has no disastrous effects? The human life that is lost, as well as the psychological effects on the women (and families) involved, are those effects not as disastrous as the mutilation of a house cat? One of the greatest commandments is to love our neighbor, not his cat. Where are the priorities? (I'm asking you that as a Christian)

And, as best I recall, I never stated that mass murder and abortion were one in the same. mass murders are often done by sadistic motives, while abortion is done (for the most part) as a method to "fix" a problem. And society has done a great job in making it out to be some simple 'procedure' rather than the atrocity that it truly is.

I just want the truth. Give me your reason, as a professing Christian, one who knows God, why you think abortion is o.k.

God bless.
Guess what? A lot of people prefer their cat to their neighbour. Its not that uncommon. So, yes. Personally, I can't think of any animal I've encountered whom I've disliked, but plenty of humans whom I have.

Second of all, a fetus is not the same as a citizen. The killing of a citizen by a serial killer who started out practising on housepets, resonates far deeper than a confused woman who may choose abortion. The likelihood is that that confused woman will not go out of her way to open fire in a public park, but that person who mutilated the cat may grow up to one day.

Thirdly, the government has a job to protect its citizens. The fetus is again, not the same as a 21 year old. The case of the 30 year who started mutiliating cats two decades before is going to present a much bigger risk to society than the woman who got the abortion. The citizen is more of a concern for the government than the fetus. If you have such an issue with that, don't vote for a pro-choice candidate then. But if society has voted for that pro-choice leader and abortion stays - fine. No-one's saying you have to get one, but it is there for a reason. Maybe to fix something you don't see as a problem, but its very different when you're a woman in that situation.

Fourth, I do take the subject seriously - as I'm still sitting here debating it. But I will say if one's entire argument is religious-based, it is a weak argument, if not entirely a BS-one.

And it was this standard tripe of an answer:

Quirk said:
"My goodness. Can't believe I didn't realize it before. Abortion has to be wrong in all cases"

That I consider to be BS.

Which I further explained:

Quirk said:
I didn't miss the point... I just didn't give you the "My goodness. Can't believe I didn't realize it before. Abortion has to be wrong in all cases" BS answer.

I may be "missing the point", but you don't seem to actually be reading what you're responding to, either.
 
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Jet_A_Jockey

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Guess what? A lot of people prefer their cat to their neighbour. Its not that uncommon. So, yes. Personally, I can't think of any animal I've encountered whom I've disliked, but plenty of humans whom I have.
So because "a lot" of people prefer their cat to their neighbor, it makes the value of their neighbors lives less important? It's not about liking and disliking people, its about the value of life. On that value you are placing a human fetus at a expendable level, and I don't think God has given anyone the authority to do that.

Second of all, a fetus is not the same as a citizen. The killing of a citizen by a serial killer who started out practising on housepets, resonates far deeper than a confused woman who may choose abortion. The likelihood is that that confused woman will not go out of her way to open fire in a public park, but that person who mutilated the cat may grow up to one day.
whats your point? Does that make the life of a fetus less valuable? Thats the point I was trying to make.

Thirdly, the government has a job to protect its citizens. The fetus is again, not the same as a 21 year old.
So who is your God, the government or the God of the bible? Because a fetus is not out of the womb yet makes it not "worthy" of citizenship, in this case, life? You are still making the same argument that a xx year old human is worth more than a fetus, but on that same note, you do not point out that there is no one forcing a choice to be made. It's not like if a child lives then the mother dies. Yes it happens very rarely, but i'm speaking of the majority of cases on this point. The situation is not a choose one and lose one. In most cases its just a devaluing of human life to the point as to where it can be destroyed due to being inconvenient. Society has helped with the issue by making it seem like a simple medical procedure that doesn't hurt anyone or anything, and that is just wrong.
The case of the 30 year who started mutiliating cats two decades before is going to present a much bigger risk to society than the woman who got the abortion. The citizen is more of a concern for the government than the fetus. If you have such an issue with that, don't vote for a pro-choice candidate then. But if society has voted for that pro-choice leader and abortion stays - fine. No-one's saying you have to get one, but it is there for a reason. Maybe to fix something you don't see as a problem, but its very different when you're a woman in that situation.
Once again, who do you represent, the government or Christ? If society allowed something you considered to be an atrocity, then would you be against it or not?k

Fourth, I do take the subject seriously - as I'm still sitting here debating it. But I will say if one's entire argument is religious-based, it is a weak argument, if not entirely a BS-one.
It's not totally religion based. Belief in God only gives extra reason as to why it is wrong. There are plenty of pro-life people that are not Christian. However, I'm not one of them, and I don't feel like I need to argue for them. On that note, I wasn't aware that I was supposed to be making a secular humanist argument for pro-life, so to call my argument weak only shows the weakness of your ability to rebut it.


I may be "missing the point", but you don't seem to actually be reading what you're responding to, either.
I've read everything you've written thus far. What I cannot grasp is that you claim to be a catholic yet you do not listen to any God-based argument that I put across. Do you follow God? If not, then your icon has been confusing me, and totally throwing my posts off. If you do not claim Christianity then you have every right to do so, I just will know not to debate with you using God as a reference point. Have a good one, take care!
 
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Phinehas2

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Dear Quirk,
Yours is biased because it only relies upon one source - the Bible.
Yours is biased because it doesnt. But infact there is no life that can develop without conception and life will naturally develop after conception, so your view is not only biased against the Bible, but biased against reality in my opinion.:)
But again, even if you arent as a Christian just committed to word of God in the Bible, where are your Biblical verse to show abortion is a choice for us?
 
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Trashionista

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I person who is known to God from conception.
That is the only fact that matters
You can't really prove that.

People have differing views as to when life actually starts. Using that as an argument against abortion for an entire female population isn't the most suitable.
 
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Trashionista

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Dear Quirk,
Yours is biased because it doesnt. But infact there is no life that can develop without conception and life will naturally develop after conception, so your view is not only biased against the Bible, but biased against reality in my opinion.:)
But again, even if you arent as a Christian just committed to word of God in the Bible, where are your Biblical verse to show abortion is a choice for us?
Its a legal issue. Not just a biblical one.

The people who are religious can choose to not have abortions.
Why should the unreligious or those who don't believe in Christianity be held to the same standard?

Religion has no place within politics. And as its a political issue, the opinion of the Bible isn't needed when writing up legislation.
 
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Phinehas2

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Dear Quirk,
Its a legal issue. Not just a biblical one.
Well its both


The people who are religious can choose to not have abortions.
that’s true and in the
UK doctors can opt out of performing abortions, but equally why should anyone who doesn’t like a law have to obey it?

Why should the unreligious or those who don't believe in Christianity be held to the same standard?
They aren’t, the pro-life unreligious odnt want to be held to the same standard as the pro-abortion unreligious.

You are mixing two different things.

Religion has no place within politics.
In a democracy of course it does, politicians can be religious and introduce laws which reflect religious views. What you are thinking of is a totalitarian state or dictatorship with a non-religious leader, but you are forgetting the dictator might be religious... your view seems incredibly biased when it comes to politics.
 
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NDNgirl4ever

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but equally why should anyone who doesn’t like a law have to obey it?
As far as I know there is no law (at least in the US) that forces any individual to have or perform abortions. No one is being forced to do anything against their will.

Your argument can also be used by the pro-choice side. If abortion were to be made illegal again, why should we who are pro-choice have to obey that law? Why should we force a woman to carry a pregnancy against her will(and no, agreeing to sex is NOT the same as agreeing to a pregnancy!)?
 
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Trashionista

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Dear Quirk,
Well its both

that’s true and in the UK doctors can opt out of performing abortions, but equally why should anyone who doesn’t like a law have to obey it?
They aren’t, the pro-life unreligious odnt want to be held to the same standard as the pro-abortion unreligious.
You are mixing two different things.

In a democracy of course it does, politicians can be religious and introduce laws which reflect religious views. What you are thinking of is a totalitarian state or dictatorship with a non-religious leader, but you are forgetting the dictator might be religious... your view seems incredibly biased when it comes to politics.
The religious aren't forced into abortions.
I don't particularly care if someone from a strict, religious upbringing choose not to get an abortion.
That's their right. Nor should they be forced into it.

However, why should a religious agenda represent an entire female population?
Why shouldn't a woman be allowed to get one?
There's absolutely no real reason the state shouldn't provide that service.
Besides the faith based one.
Which is why the faithful can choose not to get one.
The not so faithful can choose to.

Its very simple.
 
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Phinehas2

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Dear NDNgirl4ever,
Your argument can also be used by the pro-choice side.
Yes of course that’s the point.


If abortion were to be made illegal again, why should we who are pro-choice have to obey that law?
Why should we who aren’t have to obey it? Why should I have to drive according to the speed limit when I dont want to?
 
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Phinehas2

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Dear Quirk,
The religious aren't forced into abortions.
I don't particularly care if someone from a strict, religious upbringing choose not to get an abortion.
A strict religious upbringing is no guarantee that a person follows Jesus Christ.
That's their right. Nor should they be forced into it.
Who says what people’s rights are. If it is a religious person they may point out that we have no rights, but for Jesus Christ we all die in sin.


However, why should a religious agenda represent an entire female population?
Why not? Obviously those of us who believe abortion is terminating life don’t want it. I am sure paedophiles would like the choice to do what they wish, why should you stop them.

There's absolutely no real reason the state shouldn't provide that service.
There is no real reason it should as it terminates life God has created.

Besides the faith based one.
The only reason for it is a secular one, which is a pretty poor reason.
 
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Trashionista

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Dear Quirk,
A strict religious upbringing is no guarantee that a person follows Jesus Christ.
Who says what people’s rights are. If it is a religious person they may point out that we have no rights, but for Jesus Christ we all die in sin.

Why not? Obviously those of us who believe abortion is terminating life don’t want it. I am sure paedophiles would like the choice to do what they wish, why should you stop them.
There is no real reason it should as it terminates life God has created.
The only reason for it is a secular one, which is a pretty poor reason.
Well, I completely disagree.

We're in a secular world. The secular viewpoint has to be applied.

Its quite simple.
If you believe abortion to be wrong, don't get one.
But don't force a religious agenda upon those who don't agree.

Also that paedophile argument is weak.
Sexual abuse of children will have negative effects upon society.
Those who are abused are much more likely than those who weren't abused to become abusers themselves.
Abortion isn't comparable to paedophilia or animal abuse.
 
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lincolngreen50

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You can't really prove that.

People have differing views as to when life actually starts. Using that as an argument against abortion for an entire female population isn't the most suitable.
Dear Quirk, Of course people have differing views because we are all imperfect in sin.
The point I was trying to make was that our Lord being ever knowing,knowing our every move throughout life from conception,through our bodily life through to our spiritual life.
He Knows our past present and future.
He wove us all together in the womb.He knows where all the cells go
A collection of cells that seem disorganized to us imperfect sinning humans is designed by Him our perfect Lord.
It just seems so incredible dosn`t it that God has a purpose for each unique person created in God`s image but that is the Truth.
 
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Trashionista

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Dear Quirk, Of course people have differing views because we are all imperfect in sin.
The point I was trying to make was that our Lord being ever knowing,knowing our every move throughout life from conception,through our bodily life through to our spiritual life.
He Knows our past present and future.
He wove us all together in the womb.He knows where all the cells go
A collection of cells that seem disorganized to us imperfect sinning humans is designed by Him our perfect Lord.
It just seems so incredible dosn`t it that God has a purpose for each unique person created in God`s image but that is the Truth.
Again, you can't prove it.
An atheist could easily just as claim lack of god = lack of life at conception due to lack of involvement by supreme being in creation of life.
Therefore, making the argument against abortion null and void.
Which would make abortion the removal of a fetus that is unequal to a human infant.

Its so easy to say when life starts.
Regardless of where your beliefs lie.
 
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Phinehas2

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Dear Quirk,
Well, I completely disagree.

We're in a secular world. The secular viewpoint has to be applied.
No we are in a world that God has created, the secular is the disbelief in God. But what do you mean you completely disagree? You disagree that a strict religious upbringing is no guarantee that a person follows Jesus Christ? You think it is?
You disagree that Jesus Christ said we all die in sin but for repentance?
You disagree that paedophiles don’t desire for what they do to be accepted?
But life begins at conception, its common sense to me, if there is no conception there will be no life… so..

If you believe abortion to be wrong, don't get one.
Ah ok on the same basis if one believes paedophilia is wrong just don’t do it ourselves and if people want to they can?

But don't force a religious agenda upon those who don't agree.
But the law in a democracy reflects the society as a whole, why would you are a religious person want religious views not refpected?


Also that paedophile argument is weak.
Sexual abuse of children will have negative effects upon society.
Abortion is much worse, an abused life can recover, a terminated life cant.
 
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Archivist

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But life begins at conception, its common sense to me, if there is no conception there will be no life… so..


And you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Those who disagree might find as much "common sense" to support their opinions.

For the record, the Roe v. Wade decision doesn't get into the issue of when life begins. Instead it creates a balancing test between the rights of the pregnant woman vs. those of the fetus.

Ah ok on the same basis if one believes paedophilia is wrong just don’t do it ourselves and if people want to they can?

Paedophilia is an entirely different matter as it involves the rights of another person in being. Abortion does not.
 
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Trashionista

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Ah ok on the same basis if one believes paedophilia is wrong just don’t do it ourselves and if people want to they can?

Well, besides what Archivist said...

And I've already responded to this inane, off-the-wall, illogical comment but I'm going to again.

Abusers are more likely than the non-abused to become abusers themselves.
Making this a danger for the entire community.
Women who get abortions don't go on murderous rampages.
Its between a woman and her doctor.
It doesn't concern the community.
Therefore, this comparison is not applicable.
 
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Phinehas2

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Dear archivist,

And you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Those who disagree might find as much "common sense" to support their opinions.
Ok can you give me an example of where life occurs apart from conception of sperm and egg? At least my opinion matches all observable instances.


For the record, the Roe v. Wade decision doesn't get into the issue of when life begins. Instead it creates a balancing test between the rights of the pregnant woman vs. those of the fetus
Does the fetus have the right to abort the woman? Balancing is hardly the word is it.


Quote:
Ah ok on the same basis if one believes paedophilia is wrong just don’t do it ourselves and if people want to they can?

Paedophilia is an entirely different matter as it involves the rights of another person in being. Abortion does not.
On the contrary abortion does! Paedophilia is a different matter but for the logic of the argument made if one believes paedophilia is wrong just don’t do it ourselves and if people want to they can.


Abortion is much worse, an abused life can recover, a terminated life cant.
 
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