Pro-Choice?

[MooCar93]

Just out of curiosity, Zeena, how do you feel about women having abortions if a) their own lives are in danger or b) they were victims of rape or incest?

 

[HannahBanana]

And if I decided to MURDER my neighbor?!?!

MY CHOICE, RIGHT?!?!!?!

Let ME weigh the pro's and con's and I'll tell YOU what I decide! =P

Abortion =/= Murder. Murder is illegal and is committed with malice. Abortion is neither of those things. So your analogy makes no sense.

 

[Shemjaza]

And if I decided to MURDER my neighbor?!?!

MY CHOICE, RIGHT?!?!!?!

Let ME weigh the pro's and con's and I'll tell YOU what I decide! =P

This is why the abortion debate is so difficult. Many of us who are pro-choice don't consider a foetus in the early stages of pregnancy to be a person. I believe someone must have experience and identity to be a person.

Likewise many of us believe forcing a woman to carry a child to term against her will to be appalling and tantamount to slavery.

 

[HannahBanana]

It's not so much a matter of a jail sentence, as it is with the hopeful expectation that God would open thier eyes to see this as a sinful act, and themselves as sinners in need of a Saviour!

Not everyone "needs" your god. There are those of us out there who can get through life just fine without him (even with the supposed threat of "Hell"). So I ask you to kindly stop forcing him upon us. Thank you.

 

[loveiseverywhere]

I'm not a Christian, but I definetly despise abortion, today my family had some friends over and I listened in on my brother in law stating he was "pro-choice", when I heard this, I became slightly disturbed, I brought it up with my sister and her response was "well of course, we are all pro-choice", I argued with her that instead of killing the fetus people should consider adoption, her take on it was that 1/10 of every orphan gets adopted and the rest are sent to institutions, therefore she attempted to justify that it woudl be better to abort that unwanted fetus than to let it grow up in an orphaned lifestyle.

This conversation got started because one of my sister's friends is a few weeks pregnant, especially gut-churning was to sit there doing my homework and listen to her conversation "obviously you are not the type of person to get an abortion because you are willing to raise it, for certain people it's okay, for you it's obviously not."

However, for me this just doesn't cut it, my sister claims to believe in "God" but she like most other people twist and rehash things to be more "considerative" and "open minded."

My sister supports homosexuality, I certaintly don't want it banned from the country, and people can practice whatever they want under their free rights, but I don't think "God made them that way" and this is what my sister asserts, she thinks of homosexuality as God's "natural birth control."

The problem with her logic is that if she supports "God's natural birth control" why does she approve of some atrocity as a small living human organism being plucked from the whom with a pair of tweezers? When I told her I disagreed, she mocked me, calling me ignorant and making a joke of my perspective, I, on the other hand, found nothing hillarious at all to do with it, she even thought it was funny to say "the reason I'm pro-choice is because of your existence", I kept my words inside my head, but I wanted to say: "well then, do enjoy the taste of fire and brimstone."

I honestly think my sister is a complete and total idiot, how can anyone who believes in God be so incredibly stupid to approve of abortion? Abortion is exceptional in the rarest of occasions, and I mean, life or death occasions, not a third option for being an irresponsible puke, to try and justify it saying "just because they are aborted doesn't mean that their souls don't go to heaven", HERE'S A BETTER QUESTION: IF GOD TRUELY DOESN'T OPPOSE THIS IDEA WHY PUT THE LIFE IN THE WHOM IN THE FIRST PLACE????

A few times I've tried to embrace Christianity but my family would badily ridicule me for it, if I'm not this "liberalist" or I'm for "pro-choice" I'm ignorant and close minded, I'm a "religious nut, a zealot", why is society deluding itself like this? It's all because of a little thing they call "religious bigotry", even though it's more of a cop out of a person's responsibilities, their actions and the consequences that follow, today I felt great grief for all of the lives that are lost due to the practice of abortional surgery, and, if a creator truely put them there, how evil it is for man to dispense of life like garbage, and to not want to be held accountable.

If you want to take a stand against abortion I would advise reading a couple of books on the subject. That is, if it's important to you. You can get them from the local library: one is called Pro Life answers to ProChoice arguments and the other is a smaller book called ProLife 101, written by Scott Klusendorf, president of BioEthics at Stand to Reason. Excellent book and can be read in an hour.

Sometimes it's not enough to know what you believe. You must know why you believe what you believe. And there are a lot of lies being spread by the proChoice side, specifically about partial birth abortion. I had posted links to articles that were published in the American Medical News about it. Plus, one of the doctors, Dr. Bernerd Nathanson, who co-founded NARAL (national abortion rights action league) wrote a book called The Hand of God, a journey from death to life by the abortion doctor who changed his mind. In it he freely admits that they made up statistics. It's a real eye opener.

 

[Bombila]

And no pro-life advocate has yet explained to me why 49% to 57% of human embryos naturally abort, often before the woman knows she is pregnant.

If the 'soul' gets in at conception, why do half of the souls sent to earth via embryo get sent back so quick, presumably by God, who presumably sent 'em in the first place?

 

[HannahBanana]

If you want to take a stand against abortion I would advise reading a couple of books on the subject. That is, if it's important to you. You can get them from the local library: one is called Pro Life answers to ProChoice arguments and the other is a smaller book called ProLife 101, written by Scott Klusendorf, president of BioEthics at Stand to Reason. Excellent book and can be read in an hour.

Sometimes it's not enough to know what you believe. You must know why you believe what you believe. And there are a lot of lies being spread by the proChoice side, specifically about partial birth abortion. I had posted links to articles that were published in the American Medical News about it. Plus, one of the doctors, Dr. Bernerd Nathanson, who co-founded NARAL (national abortion rights action league) wrote a book called The Hand of God, a journey from death to life by the abortion doctor who changed his mind. In it he freely admits that they made up statistics. It's a real eye opener.

You do realize that pro-life advocates are just as apt to lie as pro-choice advocates are, don't you? Here's proof. That link shows that many photos that are commonly used on your side of the argument are actually fake. And here's more proof: an article describing how Leslie Unruh, the Director of South Dakota's VoteYesForLife group, has lied as well. So why didn't you mention those mistruths along with the others you mentioned? Seems like you're just out to villainize pro-choicers, and that is not okay.

 

[MooCar93]

And no pro-life advocate has yet explained to me why 49% to 57% of human embryos naturally abort, often before the woman knows she is pregnant.

If the 'soul' gets in at conception, why do half of the souls sent to earth via embryo get sent back so quick, presumably by God, who presumably sent 'em in the first place?

Not to mention the whole difficult matter of identical twins. I mean, what happens there? Does the soul that formed at conception just spontaneously split into two souls at some point?

 

[Zeena]

Just out of curiosity, Zeena, how do you feel about women having abortions if a) their own lives are in danger or b) they were victims of rape or incest?

Ecclesiastes 11:5
As thou knowest not what is the way of the wind, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child; even so thou knowest not the work of God who doeth all.

The Word of God stands sure!
Jesus is THERE for these women every bit as He is here for me!

YES, I feel for them, but no, this does not give me nor them a license to sin! =P

Do two wrongs make a right nowadays?!?!

Prochoice =/= proabortion.
Prochoice means letting each individual come to a conclusion about it, using their brains and thought process the same way you did. Anything else wouldn't be prochoice, it would be YOURchoice...imposed on everyone else.

And if I decided to MURDER my neighbor?!?!

MY CHOICE, RIGHT?!?!!?!

Let ME weigh the pro's and con's and I'll tell YOU what I decide! =P

"letting each individual come to a conclusion about it" as quoted by flicka is not a means to a just society! =P
A just soceity built upon laws for the individuals as well as the WHOLE in consideration.

This is why the abortion debate is so difficult. Many of us who are pro-choice don't consider a foetus in the early stages of pregnancy to be a person. I believe someone must have experience and identity to be a person.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

EVERY formed creature has a soul!
A human fetus 'breathes' inside it's mothers womb,
It recieves oxygen from the mothers placenta! =P

Likewise many of us believe forcing a woman to carry a child to term against her will to be appalling and tantamount to slavery.

It's SLAVERY to be a mother now?
Would it not be considered MERCIFUL to have the baby and give it for adoption instead of killing it?!?!

Those of you who consider abortion to be slavery ARE the REAL slaves!

Not to mention the whole difficult matter of identical twins. I mean, what happens there? Does the soul that formed at conception just spontaneously split into two souls at some point?

Each fetus has a soul!
For EACH recieve breath!

Is this not obvious that each have a soul while they are growing up?

 

[MooCar93]

Awesome. So, if the mother has an ectopic pregnancy, she and her baby both need to die because abortion is wrong. And, if a 12-year-old girl is raped by a close relative, she needs to bear that child because the embryo's life is more important than hers.

That's all I really needed to know to remind me of why the pro-life movement frightens me. Thanks.

 

[Zeena]

Awesome. So, if the mother has an ectopic pregnancy, she and her baby both need to die because abortion is wrong. And, if a 12-year-old girl is raped by a close relative, she needs to bear that child because the embryo's life is more important than hers.

That's all I really needed to know to remind me of why the pro-life movement frightens me. Thanks.

You're missing the point! :LOL:

God is in control!
AND He LOVES everyone!!!

Isaiah 57:1
The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.

God is MERCIFUL!

Also, I would exhort you, fear is not from God..

 

[HannahBanana]

You're missing the point! :LOL:

God is in control!
AND He LOVES everyone!!!


God is MERCIFUL!

Also, I would exhort you, fear is not from God..

What about those who do not believe in your god, and will not believe in him no matter what you say to them? Are they allowed to get abortions?

 

[Zeena]

What about those who do not believe in your god, and will not believe in him no matter what you say to them? Are they allowed to get abortions?

Yes they are!

2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Revelation 22:11-21
11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Only the sons of God are chastised

Hebrews 12:8
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

I only originally rebuked the poster(s) who professed the Name of the Lord, everyone here so far, that I've responded to has either been agnostic or a son.

2 Timothy 2:19b
And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[Boltwave]

Awesome. So, if the mother has an ectopic pregnancy, she and her baby both need to die because abortion is wrong. And, if a 12-year-old girl is raped by a close relative, she needs to bear that child because the embryo's life is more important than hers.

That's all I really needed to know to remind me of why the pro-life movement frightens me. Thanks.

I surely never stated myself that if it puts a life in danger to have them both die, I sure hope people would read the entire original post to this thread, I know, that I said for a fact "in rare occasions, when concerning life and death."

I certaintly wouldn't want to take away anyone's rights in America, I personally don't agree with it, but I'm not attuned to forcing people into tight situations where it just causes a bigger problem.

I consider the immorality of abortion due to one primary reason: and that is responsibility, if someone is careless and gets pregnant by their own account and they want to get rid of that fetus, that's murder, plain and simple, I've heard some cases where people have gone and had it done multiple times, and these people later end up regretting they had done such a thing, I don't believe in forcing anything upon someone if the circumstances do not show anything of intention or carelessness, but if it should involve those two, it is an atrocity that only they themselves can be accounted for, perhaps adoption is not the best alternative, but if people really want to go out and do what they want without the responsibility of raising children, you can have your ovaries fixed, sure, it's a lifelong descision, but it was your choice.

I think we could all benefit if social responsibility was stressed just a bit more, granted, not "force" anything upon anyone, as this is a free country, despite society's filth, citizens are independent on their own time, that is to say, 'legally', there are two other alternatives rather than ridding of the fetus when it comes to responsibility, as I see it, adoption, or having your ovary tubes modified, the two would go hand in hand together, and seeing as people are so hung up on the "overpopulating" earth, it'd be better to get it done before dealing with sexual consequences.

On top of this you also have the risk of getting AIDS and STDs, something that you cannot prevent, it demonstrates that no matter what you think of it, life is unfair, but I think it deals idealy with responsibility, even if, it is to come from an irresponsible person to an 'innocent' person, a person's own conciousness and will making that descision, and in that case, I would say, would be murder, if someone got pregnant by rape, it might be considerable, if that person chooses not to have children, get the ovaries fixed, there are all sorts of things, but nevertheless, all things must die, not every fetus will live to see the light of day, that DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT SHOULD NOT GET THE CHANCE TOO JUST BECAUSE OF SOMEONE'S OWN CARELESS IMMORAL STUPIDITY, THAT SIMPLE.

 

[flicka]

....all things must die, not every fetus will live to see the light of day, that DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT SHOULD NOT GET THE CHANCE TOO JUST BECAUSE OF SOMEONE'S OWN CARELESS IMMORAL STUPIDITY, THAT SIMPLE.

Why not? I'm serious. Why doesn't it mean that? You don't have any more evidence of insight about the 'personhood' of a 5 week old fetus than anyone else. Why should YOUR personal view out trump the personal views of those who don't think a 5 week old fetus is a person? I'd really like to know why only your thoughts and ideas should count. Plus it's not just careless immoral people who fall pregnant.

 

[Zeena]

Hey now, it doesn't JUST have to be ovaries..
Men can also have umm, errm, VASECTOMIES!

*CRUNCH*

 

[katautumn]

Why is it that it is highly rare that in discussions about unwed mothers the words "careless immoral stupidity" are uttered? Why is engaging in sex only considered careless, immoral and stupid if the woman gets impregnated and decides to have an abortion? Would it not be the actions that lead to the pregnancy that would be careless, immoral or stupid and not necessarily how the pregnancy is dealt with? I don't hear anyone criticising women who abandon the responsibility to raising their child and giving them up for adoption of being careless, immoral and stupid. So why give such a label to women who have abortions? And where is the man in all of this? You know, the man who claims he can't "feel anything" with a condom on or that he can "pull out in time"?

 

[HannahBanana]

Yes they are!

Only the sons of God are chastised

I only originally rebuked the poster(s) who professed the Name of the Lord, everyone here so far, that I've responded to has either been agnostic or a son.

Okay. That's good to know. Thanks for answering my question. (Note: No sarcasm is meant by this reply.)

 

[levi501]

I hear abortions tickle... so for the sake of entertainment I hope they always remain legal.

 

[Boltwave]

Why not? I'm serious. Why doesn't it mean that? You don't have any more evidence of insight about the 'personhood' of a 5 week old fetus than anyone else. Why should YOUR personal view out trump the personal views of those who don't think a 5 week old fetus is a person? I'd really like to know why only your thoughts and ideas should count. Plus it's not just careless immoral people who fall pregnant.

Goodness no, I never meant that careless people are the ones who always get pregnated and shouldn't have an abortion, I'm talking about the alternatives that can be taken, I mean, just because you get pregnated by accident doesn't mean you have to get an adoption, either raise the child or put it up for abortion, if you don't plan on having kids, then simply get the ovaries done, that's just my take.

And above all, I don't neccessarily conclude that my view is entirely correct and superior above others, this is a free country, and all free countries must have their gutters to be free, otherwise it becomes dictatorship and communism, I am, however sickened by people who just discard a living organism as garbage! I find it extremely heartbraking, but, you know what, I guess everyone gets their due later in time, usually a sexually careless or unaware person is likely open to the infection of sexual diseases, a biological sign, perhaps even.

Why is it that it is highly rare that in discussions about unwed mothers the words "careless immoral stupidity" are uttered? Why is engaging in sex only considered careless, immoral and stupid if the woman gets impregnated and decides to have an abortion? Would it not be the actions that lead to the pregnancy that would be careless, immoral or stupid and not necessarily how the pregnancy is dealt with?

That would be my point, the intentional actions of carelessness lead to consequences that should be accounted for as social responsibility on the person's behalf.

I hear abortions tickle... so for the sake of entertainment I hope they always remain legal.

Oooh......you are clever and funny....yes, you made a funny!

Hey now, it doesn't JUST have to be ovaries..

Men can also have umm, errm, VASECTOMIES!

Good point, I think I might actually get it done concerning kids, in my opinion, for me personally, being sterile would be a blessing.

Yet I don't feel I'm mature enough to make those kinds of situations, so I'm going to remain abstinent, possibly considering fartherhood in the future, but highly doubt it.