Pro-Aborts Commit Violence Too

[Ave Maria]

I consider anyone who places anything before our founding pricipals to be an enemy. We don't have to go to war, but we will never be friends.

That's alright and is not a problem. Acquaintances is fine with me.

 

[CSmrw]

That's alright and is not a problem. Acquaintances is fine with me.

Nevermind.

 

[Ave Maria]

I consider anyone who places anything before our founding pricipals to be an enemy. We don't have to go to war, but we will never be friends.

Nevermind.

Okay.

 

[JGG]

So are we done with the pro-choicers are scum thread?

 

[Ave Maria]

So are we done with the pro-choicers are scum thread?

Sure, unless someone else wants to add something. I am rather tired of this thread anyway.

 

[CSmrw]

That's alright and is not a problem. Acquaintances is fine with me.

Okay.

You wanted to know if we could get along. No, appearently we cannot. Hope this helps.

 

[quatona]

Pro-Abortions Commit Vilence too:

• 880 homicides and other killings
• 86 attempted murders
• 23 arsons and bombings
• 787 assaults
• 1,798 sex crimes
• (including 169 rapes)
• 59 kidnappings
• 420 cases of vandalism
• 270 drug-related crimes
• 1,577 medical crimes

Extreme pro-lifers are not the only ones guilty of violence against the opposition.

Out of interest: Is the above statistic about pro-choice extremists who comitted these crimes as part of their political strategy? Or is it more like people who had comitted crimes were asked their opinion and abortion?

I don´t know what a pro-abort is. I´m sure the people listed here haven´t labeled themselves so.

I disapprove of murder an rape etc., no matter the political or societal opinion of the perpetrator.
The fact that extreme anti-abortionists commit crimes is not among my reasons for being against prohibition of abortion.
My opinion on abortion is independent of what people do who advocate the right or are against it.

However, if people who keep raving about the value of life to no end at the same time advocate killing women and doctors, I sense a certain incoherence.

A free CD here:

http://www.abortionviolence.com/av_order_form.php

Ad hominem propaganda? No, thanks. It´s not an argument, even if true.

 

[imind]

Pro-Abortions Commit Vilence too:

• 880 homicides and other killings
• 86 attempted murders
• 23 arsons and bombings
• 787 assaults
• 1,798 sex crimes
• (including 169 rapes)
• 59 kidnappings
• 420 cases of vandalism
• 270 drug-related crimes
• 1,577 medical crimes

Extreme pro-lifers are not the only ones guilty of violence against the opposition.

A free CD here:

http://www.abortionviolence.com/av_order_form.php

link to these stats?

And I repeat, there are very few, if any, sane people who are actually pro-abortion. I am pro-choice not because I like the idea (I find abortion to be detestable if done due to irresponsible sex practices and out of convienience and most unfortunate when it's required to save the life of the mother, as it was with my own abortion) but because I do not think merely outlawing abortion will help.

why is the mothers life worth more than the fetus?

 

[CSmrw]

Because the fetus lives in her.

 

[lioninoil]

Of course the pro-abort crowd commits violence.

They kill babies -- quite deliberately, and quite consciously.

And those that don't kill babies support the ones which DO.

Romans 1:32 Those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with those who practice them.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine.

Rev 21:8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Well -- we know what THEY'RE going to get, don't we?

 

[CSmrw]

Of course the pro-abort crowd commits violence.

They kill babies -- quite deliberately, and quite consciously.

And those that don't kill babies support the ones which DO.

Romans 1:32 Those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with those who practice them.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine.

Rev 21:8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Well -- we know what THEY'RE going to get, don't we?

Abortions

 

[TricksterWolf]

link to these stats?

why is the mothers life worth more than the fetus?

What? You're kidding, right?

Possibly because the mother is cognizant and able to protest her own death, has an extended social network of people who would seek retribution for her death, and her suffering would be manifestly more obvious, and likely more profound as she actually knows what's happening to her. And those are just the ones off the top of my head.

Trickster

 

[TricksterWolf]

Of course the pro-abort crowd commits violence.

"Of course, some abortion advocates commit violence."

They kill babies -- quite deliberately, and quite consciously.

"Some of them deliberately and knowingly abort fetuses."

And those that don't kill babies support the ones which DO.

"People who support abortion, support abortion, even if they do not abort fetuses personally."

Romans 1:32 Those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with those who practice them.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine.

Rev 21:8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

"Here are a bunch of bible verses that have absolutely nothing to do with abortion."

Well -- we know what THEY'RE going to get, don't we?

"I am happy that people who disagree with my point of view will be tortured for all eternity. (Insert glib smiley.)"

Trickster

 

[Lynden1000]

Of course the pro-abort crowd commits violence.

They kill babies -- quite deliberately, and quite consciously.

And those that don't kill babies support the ones which DO.

Romans 1:32 Those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with those who practice them.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine.

Rev 21:8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Well -- we know what THEY'RE going to get, don't we?

So those who have abortions go to Hell even if they ask Jesus to forgive them? I thought one's afterlife depended not on one's actions but on one's beliefs.

 

[gladiatrix]

If you live inside another person you have only the rights the host gives you. Everything else is candy.

An unborn child is not a parasite.

The medical literature and the biology of pregnancy contradicts your contention, HolyMary.....

Part 1-Why An Internal Pregnancy is Considered a Form of Parasitism
There is a common misconception that a parasite MUST be of a different species and always harms the host. As much as it may pain folks, the relationship between an embryo/fetus and the mother is a parasitic one and is so described in the medical literature. I will frame my arguments against an antichoice site that also tries to argue that the fetus isn't a parasite.

(From THIS ANTI-CHOICE SITE)

1.a) A parasite is defined as an organism of one species living in or on an organism of another species (a heterospecific relationship) and deriving its nourishment from the host (is metabolically dependent on the host). (See Cheng,T.C., General Parasitology, p. 7, 1973.

The pretense that the above definition is the only form of parasitism recognized is nothing more than an attempt to escape the unpleasant reality presented by an internal pregnancy...it IS a form of parasitism. Actually the above article is loaded with half truths (so typical of anti-choice sites), beginning with this definition. What the writer of this piece doesn't tell you is that the above definition refers to the most common type of parasitic relationship, but is not the ONLY form of PARSITISM which is defined more generally as follows:

From PARASITES AND PARASITISM
Parasitism. Classical definition - intimate relationship between two organisms in which one (the parasite) lives on, off or at the expense of the other (host).

There are a number of different types of parasitism that are defined according to the the host/parasite interaction, so I recommend that readers consult this site to find out just what types of relationships there are. The bottom-line is that a well-adapted parasite shouldn't kill the host outright and does as little harm as possible (the longer the host lives the better for the parasite, even if death may eventually result). Also realize that parasitism is a very successful survival strategy and more than 50% of all species go through some parasitic stage during their lifetime (this word has a lot of unnecessarily pejorative baggage).

As a matter of FACT the medical profession DOES view an internal pregnancy as a form of parasitism as is EVIDENCED here:

From THIS SITE
Biology students often ask whether the developing embryo (and later the fetus) within the uterus is parasitic on its mother. Under a strict definition of symbiosis, the parasite and its host typically belong to different species. However, under a general definition of a parasite, the embryo derives sustentance from the host (mother). Although the mother is not usually harmed, there are cases when the pregnancy causes serious (life threatening) complications. R. N. Nesse and G.C. Williams (Why We Get Sick, 1994) discuss the parasitic nature of the human fetus in their chapter on pregancy (pp. 197-200).

• The fetus (and placenta) secrete several potent hormones into the mother's blood stream in order to benefit itself at the expense of the mother's health. Human placental lactogen (hPL) ties up maternal insulin so that blood glucose levels rise and provide more glucose to the fetus. If the mother happens to be deficient in her production of glucose, this can cause gestational diabetes, possibly fatal to the mother.
• The placenta also makes several substances that can constrict arteries throughout the mother's body. High blood pressure during pregnancy is called preeclampsia when it gets severe enough to damage the kidneys.
• During the early stages of pregnancy, the developing placental tissue destroys uterine nerves and arteriolar muscles that adjust blood flow, and this makes the mother unable to reduce the flow of blood to the placenta.
• Human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) is another hormone secreted by the fetus. It binds to the mother's luteinizing receptors and stimulates the continued release of progesterone from the mother's ovaries. This hormone blocks menstruation and lets the fetus stay implanted on the wall of the uterus

(edited for easier reading)

And again from PARASITES AND PARASITISM

1. Parasitism is, like most other animal associations defined in terms of two different species, who form a regular association, although this seems sensible, and it does exclude consideration of the mammalian foetus as being parasitic upon its mother, there are some very interesting immunological parallels between the mechanisms the foetus uses to avoid being rejected by the immune response of its mother and the ways in which the parasites of mammals seek to avoid their hosts immune response.

As a matter of fact should the woman's immune system becomes "aware" of the pregnancy, it can take steps to terminate the pregnancy (one of the reasons the risk of miscarriage increases with each pregnancy..the woman's immune system becomes "sensitized" to fetal proteins. Also seeTHIS ARTICLE for more general information about fetal cells in the maternal blood stream) and HERE for more info on the pathology of miscarriage. A less extreme example of this sort of immune response against the embryo/fetus is erythroblastosis fetalis. This is a severe anemia that develops in a fetus/infant because the mother produces antibodies (an immune response by the mother) that attack the fetus' red blood cells (RBCs). The antibodies are usually caused by Rh incompatibility between the mother’s blood type and that of the fetus (that is, the mother and baby have different blood types). This is because a small number of fetal cells (including RBCs) are transferred to the woman's blood.

This can also be as unfortunate for the woman as well as the fetus because fetal cells (known as microchimeras) transferred to the maternal bloodstream can provoke a autoimmune response directed against the woman, resulting in a crippling autoimmune disease known as systemic sclerosis (PDF file). What is the bottom-line for mentioning this? It underscores the FACT that the woman's body treats the fetus as a parasite/invader, should her immune system become "aware" of it's presence.
More on the fact that in medical terms, a pregnancy qualifies as a form of parasitism can be seen here in the the pre-eminent Obs/Gyn textbook in North America, Williams Obstetrics, from in Chapter 1 (2):

In pregnant women with profound iron-deficiency anemia, for example, the iron stores of the fetus are normal; in pregnant women with severe folic acid deficiency causing severe anemia, the fetal hematocrit is normal. Fetal villious syncytiotrophoblast is remarkably efficient in extracting and sequestering essential nutrients from maternal circulation. The fetus is a demanding and efficient parasite! Thus..the demands of the embryo are met at whatever cost to the maternal organism.

If you read the literature of medical professionals in the area of fetal/maternal nutrition, the way the fetus acquires nutrients from the mother is routinely referred to a "fetal parasitism". Here is an article that illustrates this common usage:

Supplement: Nutrition as a Preventive Strategy against Adverse Pregnancy Outcomes
The Risk of Maternal Nutritional Depletion and Poor Outcomes Increases in Early or Closely Spaced Pregnancies
Also remember that before the turn of the 20th century, the leading cause of death for a woman was death during childbirth and/or as the result of disablility associated with repeated, uncontrolled pregnancies/miscarriages (average lifespan of woman was 46 years as opposed to 49 years for a man). This is a classic outcome of a harmful parasitic relationship (a parasite may not kill the host outright, but more often debilitates the host in some way). I notice that this article completely glosses over this fact. Some of the harmful effects of pregnancy: (credit goes to PK and cc from ProChoice Talk for compiling these lists)

Normal, frequent or expected temporary side effects:

• exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
• altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
• nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
• heartburn and indigestion
• constipation
• weight gain
• dizziness and light-headedness
• bloating, swelling, fluid retention
• hemmorhoids
• abdominal cramps
• yeast infections
• congested, bloody nose
• acne and mild skin disorders
• skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
• mild to severe backache and strain
• increased headaches
• difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
• increased urination and incontinence
• bleeding gums
• pica
• breast pain and discharge
• swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
• difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
• inability to take regular medications
• shortness of breath
• higher blood pressure
• hair loss
• tendency to anemia
• curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
• infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
• extreme pain on delivery
• hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
• continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

Here are normal, expectable, or frequent permanent side effects:

• stretch marks (worse in younger women)
• loose skin
• permanent weight gain or redistribution
• abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
• pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life)
• changes to breasts
• varicose veins
• scarring from episiotomy or c-section
• other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
• increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
• loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis==> origin of the old saying "one baby, one tooth" or the loss of calcium cost the woman her dental health)

Here are occasional complications and side effects:

• hyperemesis gravidarum
• temporary and permanent injury to back
• severe scarring requiring later surgery (especially after additional pregnancies)
• dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses---11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
• pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
• eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
• gestational diabetes
• placenta previa
• anemia (which can be life-threatening)
• thrombocytopenic purpura
• severe cramping
• embolism (blood clots)
• medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
• torn abdominal muscles
• mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
• serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
• hormonal imbalance
• ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
• broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
• hemorrhage and
• numerous other complications of delivery
• refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
• aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
• severe post-partum depression and psychosis
• research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
• research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
• research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

Here are some less common (and serious) complications

• peripartum cardiomyopathy
• cardiopulmonary arrest
• magnesium toxicity
• severe hypoxemia/acidosis
• massive embolism
• increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
• molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
• malignant arrhythmia
• circulatory collapse
• placental abruption
• obstetric fistula

Here are a few more permanent side effects:

• future infertility
• permanent disability
• death.

The above is not an exhaustive listing, but you should get the idea. Biologically, the fetus does have a parasitic relationship with the woman whether you like it or not. It is our misfortune that the continuation of our species (and that of many others) is necessitated by this form of parasitism. This unpleasant biological fact is something that many people can't face, preferring into instead to just pretend that it doesn't exist and/or cloak the facts in what I call "every baby a Gerber baby" (pregnancy is so wonderful, a woman's duty/function in life, babies are God's gift, yadah, yadah) imagery.

Let's examine THIS ANTI-CHOICE SITE'S LIST is more detail and show just how dishonest (half-truths, statements out-of-context) most of these statements are (continued in Part 2)

 

[gladiatrix]

Part 2-Why An Internal Pregnancy is Considered a Form of Parasitism
Let's examine THIS ANTI-CHOICE SITE'S LIST is more detail:

From THIS ANTI-CHOICE SITE'S LIST
b) A human embryo or fetus is an organism of one species (Homo sapiens) living in the uterine cavity of an organism of the same species (Homo sapiens) and deriving its nourishment from the mother (is metabolically dependent on the mother). This homospecific relationship is an obligatory dependent relationship, but not a parasitic relationship.

"Obligatory dependent relationship"? Anti-choicer Newspeak for fetal parasitism as can be PLAINLY seen from a perusal of both the medical literature and the considerable physical, mental, and emotional downside that can accompany a pregnancy.

From THIS ANTI-CHOICE SITE'S LIST3.a) A parasite is generally harmful to some degree to the host that is harboring the parasite.
[...]
7.a) A parasite is generally detrimental to the reproductive capacity of the invaded host. The host may be weakened, diseased or killed by the parasite, thus reducing or eliminating the host's capacity to reproduce.

b) A human embryo or fetus is absolutely essential to the reproductive capacity of the involved mother (and species). The mother is usually not weakened, diseased or killed by the presence of the embryo or fetus, but rather is fully tolerant of this offspring which must begin his or her life in this intimate and highly specialized relationship with the mother.

If the lists in Part 1 aren't "harm" then I don't know what harm is. That of course doesn't also include the other costs of an unwanted pregnancy (the mental, emotional, financial and social costs). One other thing to remember is that some pregnancies can so damage a woman's reproductive system and/or health that she can't have future children which is characteristic parasitic behavior (injury to host cripples or pre-empts the ability of the host to reproduce, thus insuring that future resources will be devoted to parasite's welfare)

From THIS ANTI-CHOICE SITE'S LIST
b) A human embryo or fetus developing in the uterine cavity does not usually cause harm to the mother, although it may if proper nutrition and care is not maintained by the mother.

Allow me to repost the quote from this again to underscore just what a half-truth this is.

More on the fact that in medical terms, a pregnancy qualifies as a form of parasitism can be seen here in the the pre-eminent Obs/Gyn textbook in North America, Williams Obstetrics, from in Chapter 1 (2):

In pregnant women with profound iron-deficiency anemia, for example, the iron stores of the fetus are normal; in pregnant women with severe folic acid deficiency causing severe anemia, the fetal hematocrit is normal. Fetal villious syncytiotrophoblast is remarkably efficient in extracting and sequestering essential nutrients from maternal circulation. The fetus is a demanding and efficient parasite! Thus..the demands of the embryo are met at whatever cost to the maternal organism.

From THIS ANTI-CHOICE SITE'S LIST
4a) A parasite makes direct contact with the host's tissues, often holding on by either mouth parts, hooks or suckers to the tissues involved (intestinal lining, lungs, connective tissue, etc.).

4b) A human embryo or fetus makes direct contact with the uterine lining of themother for only a short period of time. It soon becomes isolated inside its ownamniotic sac, and from that point on makes indirect contact with the mother only by way of the umbilical cord and placenta.

Unless the something has changed since I studied anatomy, the uterus is part of the woman.

• The placenta invades this lining which is PART of the uterus and is the medium through which the embryo/fetus acquires nutrients from the woman's body and disposes of wastes(often to her detriment...or as the old saying illustrates "one baby, one tooth").
• This placenta is no different from the mouthparts, hooks or suckers of the your "standard" parasite because it serves the same function as mouthparts/hooks, suckers, which are used for feeding and to anchor the "standard" parasite within the host.
• The placenta also serves to protect the fetus from the mother's immune system just like the cysts that some parasites form around themselves as they feed. The placenta is just a more sophistocated version (has the feeding and anchor functions built in) of the cyst (now a "triple threat" strategy==>feeding, anchorage, protection).

Furthermore, I’d like to point out that not only does the fetus exhibit parasitic tendencies, the human placenta does so in spades. Most species seem to be engaged in a sort of coevolutionary arms race between the different sexes, one that is reminiscent of how parasites and their hosts typically adapt to each other, generation aftergeneration. THIS ARTICLE from Discover explains how and why this comes about.

From THIS ANTI-CHOICE SITE'S LIST
5a) When a parasite invades host tissue, the host tissue will sometimes respond by forming a capsule (of connective tissue) to surround the parasite and cut it off from other surrounding tissue (examples would be Paragonimus westermani, lung fluke, or Oncocerca volvulus, a nematode worm causing cutaneous filariasis in the human).

5b) When the human embryo or fetus attaches to and invades the lining tissue of the mother's uterus, the lining tissue responds by surrounding the human embryo and does not cut it off from the mother, but rather establishes a means of close contact (the placenta) between the mother and the new human being.

With regard to a) the formation of a capsule around a parasite is NOT a common response (if it were, parasites wouldn't be as big a problem as they are). This should not be confused with cyst formation by some parasites as a strategy to evade the host's immune system.

With regard to b) "the lining tissue responds by surrounding the human embryo and does not cut it off from the mother"==>This makes is sound like the uterus "welcomes" the embryo, but NOT. The lining serves to protect the uterus from the deleterious effects of placental formation. No part of the lining forms part of the placenta in humans. The lining simply closes over the wound made in the lining by the invading trophoblast as it's digests in way inside and in the process encases the primitive placenta which will re-erupt from underneath that lining as soon as the embryo reaches any size. If you don't believe me the go to this site which actually discuss the formation of the placenta:

From Development of the Placenta The structure actively concerned in the process of excavation is the trophoblast of the ovum, which possesses the power of dissolving and absorbing the uterine tissues. The trophoblast proliferates rapidly and forms a network of branching processes which cover the entire ovum and invade and destroy the maternal tissues and open into the maternal blood vessels, with the result that the spaces in the trophoblastic network are filled with maternal blood; these spaces communicate freely with one another and become greatly distended and form the intervillous space.

The point is that the "covering" around the embryo comes from specialized cells that are part of the embryo known as the trophectoderm or "trophoblast"as can be seen below.

KEY:
1.The "ICM" (inner cell mass) are the source of stem cells. The ICM develops into an embryo IF blastocyst or zygote implants.
2. The blastocoel cavity in the center is marked as "C"
3. The trophectoderm cells that will form the placenta surround the cavity - one is marked with a "T"

In short the uterine lining does NOT "welcome" the invading embryo or blastocyst as the zygote is know at this stage, contrary to what the article claims. The lining simply protects the uterus from the worst effects of the implantation Sometimes this is not the case IF the trophoblast erodes the lining too deeply and invades the muscle of the uterus. At birth, the evacuation of such a placenta will tear away a piece of the uterine muscle and the woman may bleed to death (depending on how much damage is done). In many cases the damage to the uterus may be extensive enough to warrant a hysterectomy to save her life (the bleeding is uncontrollable). The damage to the uterus may be so extensive that further pregnancies are either very dangerous or impossible, even though the damage didn't necessitate an immediate hysterectomy. In the light of the above, consider this passage from the list:

From THIS ANTI-CHOICE SITE'S LIST
A parasite is an organism that associates with the host in a negative, unhealthy and nonessential (nonessential to the host) manner which will often damage the host and detrimentally affect the procreative capacity of the host (and species).

If one observes that some pregnancies can actually destroy a woman's ability to have future children, then that just underscores the parasitic nature of pregnancy to start with.

From THIS ANTI-CHOICE SITE'S LIST
6a) When a parasite invades a host, the host will usually respond by forming antibodies in response to the somatic antigens (molecules comprising the bodyof the parasite) or metabolic antigens (molecules secreted or excreted by theparasite) of the parasite. Parasitism usually involves an immunological response on the part of the host. (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 8.)

6b) New evidence, presented by Beer and Billingham in their article, "The Embryo as a Transplant" (Scientific American, April, 1974), indicates that the mother does react to the presence of the embryo by producing humoral antibodies, but they suggest that the trophoblast -- the jacket of cells surrounding the embryo -- blocks the action of these antibodies and therefore the embryo or fetus is not rejected. This reaction is unique to the embryo-mother relationship.

Perhaps you would care to explain the FACT that the woman's body WILL form antibodies (a HUMORAL RESPONSE) against the embryo/fetus (how do you explain erythroblastosis fetalis?) The fact that the placenta sequesters the fetus from most attacks is CLASSIC parasitic behavior and is not unlike the following:

From Parasitic Strategies to Evade Immune Mechanisms:
1. Some parasites conceal themselves in order to avoid immune responses. For example, Entamoeba and Trichinella develop cysts that are resistant to immune attack. Other parasites (malaria, toxoplasma, leishmania) attempt to protect themselves from immune system by living inside certain host cells. Many have evolved the ability to inactivate the killing mechanisms of phagocytes.

2. Some parasites (e.g., Schistosomes) disguise themselves by acquiring an outer coat of the host's own proteins to mask themselves from immune surveillance. NOTE: When the trophoblast starts digesting the endometrium, the damage will induce the other cells of the uterine lining to grow over the invader and "close" the wound. The embryo, thanks to the efforts of the trophoblast, has now acquired a coating of host membrane and protein that conceals the embryo from immune surveillance as it completes a permanent connection (formation of the primitive placenta) to it's host, the woman.

One of the classic characteristics of virtually all internal parasites is that they develop strategies for evading the host immune system, otherwise, they 'd be toast and yesterday's news.
Continued in Part 3....

 

[gladiatrix]

Part 3-Why An Internal Pregnancy is Considered a Form of Parasitism

From THIS ANTI-CHOICE SITE'S LIST
8a) A parasite is an organism that, once it invades the definitive host, will usually remain with host for life (as long as it or the host survives).

8b) A human embryo or fetus has a temporary association with the mother,remaining only a number of months in the uterus.

What you may not know is how disingenuous the above is. The first part (a) is true of SOME parasites who need a SPECIFIC host to reach adult maturity and where they reproduce. However this is NOT true of ALL parasites as the the passage implies by the juxtaposition with the fetus has "has a temporary association with the mother" in (b). Ticks, for instance, are adult parasites that don't stay with the host throughout their life-spans, but only long enough to acquire the blood meal they need to produce eggs. The association is "temporary". (NOT equating a fetus with a tick, so don't go there...this analogy used to show the dishonesty of this passage).

If we take the "it's just temporary, so tolerate it" argument implies here to it's logical conclustion, just because a tick's association with you would be "temporary" and wouldn't necessarily harm you physically, would you tolerate that tick? I doubt it.....

From THIS ANTI-CHOICE SITE'S LIST
A human embryo or fetus is a human being that associates with the mother in a positive,healthful essential manner necessary for the procreation of the species.

And an example of how the embryo/fetus "associates" with the mother in a "positive, healthful, essential way" would be??? (what health benefits does the woman reap for a pregnancy?) If she doesn't want to have a baby and can't support it, then she certainly isn't going to derive any emotional/mental benefits either. One can see how this would be a true statement IF the woman wanted to have a baby (she will still face all the risks associated with that pregnancy, however much she may want a baby). Internal pregnancies may be needed for the continuation of our species (many vertebrates in general), but it is NOT essential to the well-being of the woman (host).

In addition, a pregnancy CAN be very deleterious/destroy the continued reproductive capacity of the woman if that particular pregnancy damages her uterus and/or results in permanent deleterious changes that make other pregnancies dangerous (diabetes, cardiomyopathy etc.) So the above is simply more anti-choicer bovine scatology. While an embryo/fetus may not be a parasite, using the most common definition (one species "sets up shop" as it were in a foreign species), the relationship between the woman and the embryo/fetus is a form of parasitism.

If that offends your rose-colored version of motherhood, then so be it. The biological facts speak for themselves, despite anti-choicer attempts to avoid the unpleasant truth about human reproduction.

The bottomline here is that any endopregnancy (internal pregnancy) and mammalian reproduction in general is a parasitic one==>we are all started in a parasitic relationship with momma, so it's a good thing that there is such a thing as parental love to overcome that unfortunate fact. Unfortunately for a large number of humans they are neither loved nor wanted, so this unpleasant biological fact is never "overcome".

It is a human being. It is a person with rights!

And your evidence for the above claim would be what? I am pro-choice for a hosts of reasons and can argue my case. Here are some links that dispute your claims that what is being aborted is always a "person". IMO such a designation can be most objectively gauged by fetal development.

1) Post #66/PART 1--The Personhood Argument

2) Post #67/PART2--The "Life Begins at Conception" Myth (Is there any Scientific Basis?)

3) Post #68/PART 3-The "Life Begins at Conception" Myth (Historical Aspects) You might be surprised to learn that this definition of "life" is a recent one.




4) Post #272-The Implications for Anti-choice for the Woman Perhaps you will tell us just what plans you have to support all those children that you plan on forcing women to have?

A) Post #114-More on Why Adoption is a Canard (Why it's doomed to failure as a remedy)​

5) Post #208-Why the only real "pro" in the "pro"-life (what false advertising, IMO) movement is just "pro" -punishment (also why the decision to have an abortion is a responsible one).

 

[Silent Bob]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to gladiatrix again.

If there was a thread archive in the E&M forum this should be in it!

 

[CSmrw]

Allow me...

 

[cobaltburrito]

I think holymary believes "parasite" is a negative term. It is not, it simply describes a symbiotic relationship.