Prison reform; need quicker executions, more jails, and need to increase incarnation to reduce crime

[dogs4thewin]

You release the body to next of kin.

Trouble is you are left with two problems one that is NOT justice, but also if a crime WAS committed that would mean that the person that actually committed it may still be out there.

 

[dogs4thewin]

The cost of having a criminal justice system is that some innocents will be found guilty and a lot of guilty will be released. Unless we know everything, of course we will be wrong. But we still need to execute our system.

Is that true justice though? The country was founded on the idea that it is better for the guilty to go free than the innocent to be incarcerated. I agree with that partly because I feel people should be free unless they ARE guilty and it is proven, but more than that because think about it. If a crime IS committed and the wrong person is incarcerated for it then that means that the person who DID commit the crime is still out there. Whereas if the guilty go free and NO one serves time for the crime then you only have one injustice.

 

[dogs4thewin]

And why is eliminating the death penalty a sign of civility?

The United States is the ONLY first world country to have it and we also have the highest incarceration and crime rate.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What do you mean. I agree we need to drop private prisons which usually house non- violent offenders, anyway.

We need far-reaching reform of the entire criminal justice system. Patching it up won't do.

 

[JustOneWay]

Increasing incarceration does not reduce crime.

 

[dogs4thewin]

We need far-reaching reform of the entire criminal justice system. Patching it up won't do.

I agree, but it is CLEAR as day that we disagree on how to do so. I am a big supporter of inmate rights one of the fairly few areas I am liberal to the core.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Increasing incarceration does not reduce crime.

AMEN thank you. If it did, we would have VERY little crime, which is NOT true.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I agree, but it is CLEAR as day that we disagree on how to do so. I am a big supporter of inmate rights one of the fairly few areas I am liberal to the core.

I too support inmate rights. If I were King of the World crooks would look forward to spending time in my prisons. Unfortunately we cannot afford to provide this level of care right now.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I too support inmate rights. If I were King of the World crooks would look forward to spending time in my prisons. Unfortunately we cannot afford to provide this level of care right now.

Well, we can sure afford better care than many want to admit. Again, it is funny how more rehab leads to a LOWER incarceration rate. Even here, drug court is MUCH cheaper than incarceration, for example.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

AMEN thank you. If it did, we would have VERY little crime, which is NOT true.

Incarceration limits the criminal to crimes within the prison. This is a good thing. Once out many reoffend, which supports incarceration as a means of reducing crime. Police routinely admit that it is the 'small fish' that they catch. The really smart crooks elude capture and continue committing all sorts of crimes.

 

[High Fidelity]

So I guess we shouldn't have jails then, because we jail innocent people too. Do you have a solution for how we can avoid finding innocent people guilty 100% of the time?

Want to tell us how we can prosecute with 100% accuracy?

Why kill them at all?

Jail them for life without parole. Worst case then is that they were wrongfully imprisoned and get released at the end of it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well, we can sure afford better care than many want to admit. Again, it is funny how more rehab leads to a LOWER incarceration rate. Even here, drug court is MUCH cheaper than incarceration, for example.

You are going against the powerful criminal justice establishment, and they will win.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well, we can sure afford better care than many want to admit. Again, it is funny how more rehab leads to a LOWER incarceration rate. Even here, drug court is MUCH cheaper than incarceration, for example.

That's part of the problem. "Cheaper" means less employment (and less political power) for the criminal justice system. Large systems resist change, especially when funded by the government.

 

[TheBear]

There are a lot of cases where new evidence arises, years later, which exonerates a prisoner.

just sayin'.....

 

[OldWiseGuy]

There are a lot of cases where new evidence arises, years later, which exonerates a prisoner.

just sayin'.....

In almost all those cases that 'new evidence' was there from the very beginning, and often known by the prosecutor. If more prosecutors would go to jail for withholding exculpatory evidence there would be fewer wrongly convicted inmates in prison.

It is a great irony that those with the highest levels of education give themselves permission to do the sloppiest work. Plumbers, electricians, carpenters, machinists, and most other tradespeople etc. must do it right all the time. What is a 'learning experience' for the 'mighty' is grounds for termination for the rest of us.

 

[Ringo84]

I don't know why we just do away with the death penalty. Giving any government control over the life and death of its citizens is the very definition of "big government".

We also need to rethink how we punish offenders. I'm not convinced that putting non-violent criminals (or even violent criminals) in prisons, where deprivations there cause disciplinary problems (because nobody likes being cooped up against their will) and otherwise good people who make mistakes learn how to be career criminals, is the best way to handle things.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I don't know why we just do away with the death penalty. Giving any government control over the life and death of its citizens is the very definition of "big government".

Public support of the death penalty runs around 60 percent, year in and year out. If the government is listening more killers would be executed, not fewer. The delightful irony is that most people claim to be liberal, and yet support for the death penalty remains high.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

While, on paper, increasing the prison sentences sounds like it will reduce crime rates (I held that belief myself at one time), mountains of statistical evidence would show us otherwise...which is what ended up changing my mind on the subject.

The link between crime and poverty is an unmistakable one.

I'll preface my next statement with the following stat:
88% of people will end up in the same economic situation as their parents (statistically speaking)

So, if you're a young person living in the inner city, here are essentially your options.
1.) Work hard/study hard and gamble on the odds that you'll be one of the 12% that makes it out.
2.) Give up and resign to the fact that you're going to be poor.
3.) Find a way to get money through less-than-legal means.

Locking people up for longer doesn't address the underlying causes for for why they're choosing option 3 in the first place (Legitimate opportunities are limited; but they don't want to be broke)

The answer is giving them a 4th option. The countries that have given a 4th option (Free college education) have realized 40%+ reductions in their crime rates within 10 years as a result. ...and it's been done in enough countries that we can't say it's a fluke...as to where our system of over-penalizing hasn't dropped our crime rates one bit.

Free education is the one place where I stray from the libertarian platform...because, to me, if Rich Johnny with a 2.5 GPA gets to go to college because of his parents' high income debt fre, but Poor Billy with a 2.5 GPA cannot because of his parents' low income (unless he wants 10 years worth of student loans to pay back), one can't really say that Johnny and Billy had an equal chance to succeed and prosper in life.

***I made sure to mention the 2.5 GPA and the loans aspect since the typical rebuttal to this is "Well, he could've just worked hard and gotten a scholarship", or "He could've just taken on student loans" I wanted to make it apparent that we should be discussing the average scenario, and not the rare cases where a kid has such an exceptional level of intelligence that schools are knocking down there door to get them to go there for free.

 

[Honey Parallel]

The United States is the ONLY first world country to have it and we also have the highest incarceration and crime rate.

Just to ask. Do you see any inconsistencies at all in what is being irrationally at times advocated by the one with whom we are engaging? Not even a debate really.
Thou shalt not murder. Putting an innocent person wrongly convicted to death is murder.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
A life without parole sentence would certainly suffice to incarcerate someone deemed otherwise worthy of death in America. And if they're innocent of the charges and wrongly convicted they are there and alive to be set free eventually. Thank God for the Innocence Project and any others like them. Innocence being the first word in their mission.

We're "arguing" with someone who wants to kill people!

 

[ThatRobGuy]

We also need to rethink how we punish offenders. I'm not convinced that putting non-violent criminals (or even violent criminals) in prisons, where deprivations there cause disciplinary problems (because nobody likes being cooped up against their will) and otherwise good people who make mistakes learn how to be career criminals, is the best way to handle things.

There has to be a balance between punishment and rehabilitation to a degree.

Obviously I agree that we shouldn't be locking up prostitutes and pot smokers...that's a waste of our money. However, we also can't be giving an armed robber a $1,500 fine and immediately be sending them back into society with no detention.

I do agree that many of our sentences are too harsh, and that we lack in the "rehabilitation department" as opposed to nations like Norway where the focus is all about getting them ready to go back to society and turn over a new leaf. ...but there are some people who, we have to acknowledge, can't go back to being a part of our society. For example, the person who's been guilty of multiple murders...releasing them back into the wild presents some elevated risks for the rest of us.