Prevenient Grace

[jimmyjimmy]

God will make himself known to those who really want to know him.

He will do that. The trouble is, no unregenerate man wants to know Him.

 

[HatGuy]

Not the same predicament, in order for you to be pleasing to God you must be in the Spirit not the flesh, so being born again prior to faith makes perfect sense.
If the carnal natural mind is enmity with God, then how can it have faith in Christ?

I think you just don't like the implications to your POV if you start thinking like a calvinist.

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

If the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, how can it obey God's command to repent and believe the gospel of Christ?

But there's no Biblical backing for this whatsoever. You will not find a scripture to support it. You are not indwelt by the Spirit before faith in Christ, but faith in Christ leads to being indwelt by the Spirit.

Your verses quoted (vs 9) refers to those who already believe.

The disciples believed in Jesus but we're only given the Spirit later.

Acts 8 shows us a group of believers that received the Spirit only later.

It's not that I don't like the implications. Your idea is logically consistent, but it has no Biblical warrant.

 

[HatGuy]

The Calvinist isn't in the same predicament. We believe that regeneration precedes faith, so we aren't in the flesh at the time of belief.

See my answer to sdowney

 

[sdowney717]

But there's no Biblical backing for this whatsoever. You will not find a scripture to support it. You are not indwelt by the Spirit before faith in Christ, but faith in Christ leads to being indwelt by the Spirit.

Your verses quoted (vs 9) refers to those who already believe.

The disciples believed in Jesus but we're only given the Spirit later.

Acts 8 shows us a group of believers that received the Spirit only later.

It's not that I don't like the implications. Your idea is logically consistent, but it has no Biblical warrant.

Those who are regenerated are no longer natural men, but spiritually alive to God. They are saved.
They will confess Christ as Lord. God will not allow any He gives to Christ to be lost. Scripture does not describe an in between condition, either you are in the flesh having enmity with God, or in the Spirit having life and peace with God.

John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

And Christ says He will raise all of them up that the Father gives Him, so they are all saved at their regeneration, they are not sealed yet till they believe, but they are saved, all the regenerated learn of the Father and confess Christ as Lord. God will watch over His word to perform this, so they can not physically die until they confess Christ and are sealed.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

All the regenerated belong to Christ, because God has given them to Christ, and all God gives to the Son come to Him.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

All God gives to Christ are Christ's so they have the Spirit inside of them.

 

[Hammster]

But there's no Biblical backing for this whatsoever. You will not find a scripture to support it. You are not indwelt by the Spirit before faith in Christ, but faith in Christ leads to being indwelt by the Spirit.

So I know where you're coming from, what scripture do you have that supports this?

 

[sdowney717]

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.”

God teaches us by His Spirit which indwells His people. We are become His people when we are born again. We are to no longer regard them who are born again according to the FLESH, because they are in the SPIRIT.

2 Corinthians 5:16-18New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

So we have been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ after being born again, and this is of God's purpose and will for us.

NOT in WORDS which man' wisdom teaches, These things of the Spirit of God are taught by the Holy Spirit from His Spirit to our spirit the things of God. As Jesus says, the Father teaches these things to our spirit from His Holy Spirit., because He is in His people. And we learn from the Father and we believe in Christ, and are then sealed in the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our eternal inheritance. Read Ephesians 1.

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Rescued One]

No ... not everyone desires to be saved (i.e. reconciled with God).

But Jesus has made it possible for all men/women to be reconciled to God.

So who gives a person his desire?

 

[HatGuy]

So I know where you're coming from, what scripture do you have that supports this?

John 7
7:37 On the last day of the feast, the greatest day, Jesus stood up and shouted out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me, and 7:38 let the one who believes in me drink. Just as the scripture says, ‘From within him will flow rivers of living water.’” 7:39 (Now he said this about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were going to receive, for the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Belief first, then receiving the Spirit.

Ephesians 1
1:13 And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation) – when you believed in Christ – you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit, 1:14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

Believing in Christ first, then being marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit.

I know of no scripture that ever says we received the Spirit and then believed. I've only ever seen the NT claim it is belief first, then receiving the Spirit. (The disciples believed first, then received the Spirit.) If there is one, let me know so we can discuss it.

 

[HatGuy]

These things of the Spirit of God are taught by the Holy Spirit from His Spirit to our spirit the things of God. As Jesus says, the Father teaches these things to our spirit from His Holy Spirit., because He is in His people. And we learn from the Father and we believe in Christ, and are then sealed in the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our eternal inheritance.

Okay, you have clearly stated here you believe first, and are then sealed in the Spirit.

Therefore, regeneration / born again happens after faith. Not before.

But this means you are contradicting what you said earlier.

 

[Hammster]

John 7
7:37 On the last day of the feast, the greatest day, Jesus stood up and shouted out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me, and 7:38 let the one who believes in me drink. Just as the scripture says, ‘From within him will flow rivers of living water.’” 7:39 (Now he said this about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were going to receive, for the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Belief first, then receiving the Spirit.

Ephesians 1
1:13 And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation) – when you believed in Christ – you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit, 1:14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

Believing in Christ first, then being marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit.

I know of no scripture that ever says we received the Spirit and then believed. I've only ever seen the NT claim it is belief first, then receiving the Spirit. (The disciples believed first, then received the Spirit.) If there is one, let me know so we can discuss it.

Okay, just checking. I think the issue is that you are believing that regeneration and receiving the Spirit or being sealed by the Spitit are the same thing. They aren't.

 

[rjs330]

He will do that. The trouble is, no unregenerate man wants to know Him.

Well that is true to a point I suppose. But Jesus did say that he will.draw all men until him. So there is a place where men get drawn to Christ, even unregenerate ones. But that does not mean they will heed the call. If one heeds the call and seeks after him he will find him. If one looks around and says there is a God because he is evident and seeks to know this God the Spirit will pull him in the right direction and God will be found.

 

[sdowney717]

Well that is true to a point I suppose. But Jesus did say that he will.draw all men until him. So there is a place where men get drawn to Christ, even unregenerate ones. But that does not mean they will heed the call. If one heeds the call and seeks after him he will find him. If one looks around and says there is a God because he is evident and seeks to know this God the Spirit will pull him in the right direction and God will be found.

It is not your seeking God that allows you to find God. It is the other way around.
John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

And then this, can you read with understanding these verses?
Many desired to see what the apostles saw and did not see it and hear and did not hear it. The gospel is hidden from some and revealed to others by God's divine sovereign choice.
The ones who are the true worshippers are those whom Christ wills to reveal God.

Note verse 22.

Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It is not your seeking God that allows you to find God. It is the other way around.

So true. Lost sheep don't find shepherds. Shepherds find lost sheep.

 

[sdowney717]

So true. Lost sheep don't find shepherds. Shepherds find lost sheep.

For some reason, many people have everything reversed from the true reality.
They need to have their minds transformed by God's word, and not try to transform the Word to fit their minds.

 

[A_Thinker]

So who gives a person his desire?

The desire for God ... is from God ...

 

[A_Thinker]

A question ...

Was Paul regenerate when he was knocked from his horse ?

What about before, ... when he was "kicking against the pricks" ?

 

[sdowney717]

A question ...

Was Paul regenerate when he was knocked from his horse ?

What about before, ... when he was "kicking against the pricks" ?

Romans 8:28 applies here. At some point in your life, if you are one of 'the called' you will be born again.
But your whole life is foreknown by God and He began His good work in you on the day of your birth.
Or even back before the foundation of the world when God chose you in Him.
God ordained your steps to bring you to Himself.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Paul tells us it is like this, v16 is when he is regenerated. But the calling was on Paul at his birth. To be revealed in Paul at God's appointed time., but beforehand this was hidden from Paul.
Galatians 1
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who wereapostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

For some reason, many people have everything reversed from the true reality.
They need to have their minds transformed by God's word, and not try to transform the Word to fit their minds.

For 20 years of my Christian life, I did too, so I can't be too harsh on them.

 

[rjs330]

It is not your seeking God that allows you to find God. It is the other way around.
John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

And then this, can you read with understanding these verses?
Many desired to see what the apostles saw and did not see it and hear and did not hear it. The gospel is hidden from some and revealed to others by God's divine sovereign choice.
The ones who are the true worshippers are those whom Christ wills to reveal God.

Note verse 22.

Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

Yes I agree with Scripture. I also agree with this scripture

Seek the Lord when he can still be found; call him while he is yet near.Let the wicked abandon their ways and the sinful their schemes. Let them return to the Lord so that he may have mercy on them, to our God, because he is generous with forgiveness. - Isaiah 55:6-7 Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 55:6-7 - Common English Bible

And this one

When you call me and come and pray to me, I will listen to you.When you search for me, yes, search for me with all your heart, you will find me. - Jeremiah 29:12-13 Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 29:12-13 - Common English Bible

And this one
When I am lifted up I will draw all.men unto me.

I also believe this

So how can they call on someone they don’t have faith in? And how can they have faith in someone they haven’t heard of? And how can they hear without a preacher?And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those who announce the good news.But everyone hasn’t obeyed the good news. As Isaiah says, Lord, who has had faith in our message?So, faith comes from listening, but it’s listening by means of Christ’s message.But I ask you, didn’t they hear it? Definitely! Their voice has gone out into the entire earth, and their message has gone out to the corners of the inhabited world. - Romans 10:14-18 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 10:14-18 - Common English Bible

So there it is, God reaches out to people. He does so in his creation and by his word proclaimed. People then must seek after him to find him. All those who see the creation and all those who hear the word do not believe and do not seek. Only some do. Many are called but few are chosen.

 

[rjs330]

For some reason, many people have everything reversed from the true reality.
They need to have their minds transformed by God's word, and not try to transform the Word to fit their minds.

Boy have you got that right.