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Preterist interpretation of events?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by npetreley, Jun 21, 2002.

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  1. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    My goodness ... I've never read Hosea through preterist glasses, but I'm seeing so much of this book fulfilled in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, that great day when Christ returned for His Bride!!!  Hallelujah!!!  :clap:
     
  2. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    Interesting ... Hosea's prophecy about the imminent judgment of Israel for her idolatry contains the following:

    "Therefore the land will mourn, and all its inhabitants, the birds of the sky, and even the fish in the sea will perish."  (Hosea 4:3)

    Did this literally happen?  Were the entire population of the northern 10 tribes of Israel completely destroyed?  Or is this simply another example of apocalyptic, exaggerative language common in the Near East?
     
  3. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

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    It would be more accurate to translate this as "the grass of the land." The Hebrew word is more often used as "land" than "earth." The same word is used in Amos 8:8 and 9:5.

    0776 'erets {eh'-rets}
    from an unused root probably meaning to be firm; TWOT - 167; n f
    AV - land 1543, earth 712, country 140, ground 98, world 4, way 3,

    You can't make a direct word-for-word comparison because it's Hebrew vs. Greek. The root word used in Luke 21:35, where Jesus wraps up the prophecy by saying it will be a snare for the whole earth, is "ge." It's the same root for "Gaia," or "mother earth" to the Greeks. This alone wouldn't force it to mean the whole earth. But Luke 21:35 precedes the word with "pas" which means "all." So it would be exceedingly hard to argue that this does not mean the whole earth.

    1093 ge {ghay}
    contracted from a root word; TDNT - 1:677,116; n f
    AV - earth 188, land 42, ground 18, country 2, world 1, earthly + 1537 + 3588 1; 252
    1) arable land
    2) the ground, the earth as a standing place
     
  4. davo

    davo Member

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    Absolutely

     


    I think there isn't too much difference between your Amos scriptures and Luke 21:35 they both contain:

    Amos 8:8, 9:5 ths ghs   =the land

    Luke 21:35 ths ghs   =the land 

    pas indeed means "all" -as you have 'Pan-American' i.e., all-American etc. So Luke IS simply saying the whole Land.

    davo
     
  5. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    Ah! Nice to see someone with the LXX at their fingertips! Are there any interlinear Old Testaments out there with Hebrew, Greek, and English?
     
  6. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

    +2


    Wow. You'll take a Greek translation of the Hebrew, compare another greek word to Pan in Pan-American, and use these third cousins twice removed from the original languages to explain away the problematic words "pas" and "ge" translated as "the whole earth."

    And why do you do this? In order to protect your private interpretation of words like "this" and "you" which you claim OTHERS have twisted and explained away.

    I never thought I'd say this, but I can see why this board gave up on preterists and booted them out of the eschatology forum. I give up, too.
     
  7. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

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    Actually, pas does mean "all" or "every" depending on the word modified. In the case of the singular noun ge, it would mean "all the earth," or "the whole earth."
     
  8. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

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    Considering the context, "the whole earth" is apocalyptic jargon for the fallen realm, that is, "all those who dwell on the face of the earth" means, literally, the whole company of the rebellious. It is those whose hearts are "weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life" who will be surprised by "that day." Jesus' instructions to his disciples are very clear: they are not to be numbered among such persons. They are to "be always on the watch and pray[ing] that [they] may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that [they] may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

    The contrast between the rebellious and the redeemed is even more stark in Revelation, where such phrases as "the whole earth" and "those that dwell upon the earth" are consistently used in a negative context. As M. Robert Mulholland has observed:

    This does not mean that the alternate translation, "land," is altogether invalid. Apocalyptic writing, in particular, often utilizes such linguistic tricks as using words with more than one meaning. In this way, neither its original meaning to its original audience nor its meaning for ongoing history at any particular moment is lost or confused. The "land" upon which first century Jerusalem stood was corrupted by sin and thus bore the brunt of God's wrath. Likewise, the sins of "those who dwell upon the earth" have, over the course of history, called down the wrath of God in numerous times and places. The message to the first century Church, however, is the same message to us today: we have been "redeemed out of the earth" and are to have nothing to do with its corruption, for it leads only to death and destruction. Rather, we are to be the ongoing incarnation of the presence of Christ in the world, proclaiming to "those who dwell upon the earth" that there is a better way, the way of Christ, which leads to life and wholeness.
     
  9. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    Now on to Micah ...

    Here, the prophet is foretelling the destruction of Samaria that occurred in 722 BC by the armies of Assyria.  What's interesting is the language used to describe this destruction.  Futurists, pay attention ...  ;)

    Micah 1:3-4

    For, look, the LORD is leaving his dwelling place and he will descend and march on the earthÂ’s mountaintops.  The mountains will disintegrate beneath him, and the valleys will be split in two.  The mountains will melt like wax in a fire, the rocks will slide down like water flows down a steep slope.

    Wow!  Sounds like a "coming" of the LORD in judgment!  This passage also possesses similar language to that given in the NT when describing the return of Christ.

    So, did history record the physical fulfillment of these things???  Or is this language simply figurative of God's judgment?  If the answer is "yes," then why interpret similar language in the NT differently?
     
  10. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    You misunderstand, npetreley. Our removal from the eschatology forum was not for disciplinary reasons. It was because the administrators designed the eschatology forum to discuss futurist issues, not preterist issues. It wasn't because they "gave up" on us or wanted to "boot" us (clearly, because they allow preterists and futurists to discuss the same issues here).

    Davo's whole interprative process does not hinge on his "Pan-American" example, so I hope you're not to hard on him for that.


    Mike, I think I need a smack;  I've been pronouncing your name incorrectly. :eek: 


    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  11. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    I'll let it slide ... once.   :(

    Next time, you won't be so lucky!!!  :mad:
     
  12. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Whew -  thanks for the leniency.  Although, as a Marine, I don't think I'd allow a squid or a flyboy to lay the smackdown on me...regardless what kind of jedi powers you think you have. :mad:

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5 
     
  13. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    Is it just me, or is the above boasting totally contrary to Acts' closing "In Christ"???  :scratch:

    He he he he he ... :wave:

    ... "little brother" ...  ;)
     
  14. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    He he he ;)

    How's this...

    In Christ AND the Marines

    Acts6:5
     
  15. rainbow promise

    rainbow promise New Member

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    npetreley,

    I am not a preterist in no way shape or form.

    Matt. 24:29... Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:....There are referrences to this event all thru the old testament.

    Immediately after what tribulation. from 538 AD to 1798 AD. The Papacy ruled the conscience of man. During this time they persecuted people in the most horrible ways, that didn't follow their teachings. This went on for 1260 years. It ended when it received its deadly wound, when the Pope was captured and died in captivity.

    Matt. 24:29 says this will happen IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days. No matter when this event was prophecied it was prophecied in the same exact order.
    Under the 6th seal of Rev. 6:12, 13 we read the same event. One extra thing is added. A gian earthquake. It is listed before the sun and star thing. Meaning it would happen first, right after the TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.

    Following the reformation in 1755 the Lisbon earthquake ocurred. This was the largest one ever recorded and covered 4,000,000 million miles. It shook Europe, Africa, and North America. There has not been one that big ever in history even up to this day. ..

    In May 19, 1780 was the DARK DAY. This covered all of New England. In the day the sun became suddenly dark and it was like night out. After nightfall the darkness was quite terrifying. After midnight the darkness left and the moon was blood red.

    November of 1833 a very intense meteor shower ocurred. Meteor showers aren't all that unusual. What made this one so different is the intenseness of it. The most intense one ever recorded. Nearly all of North America witnessed it.

    These I happened to run accross yrs. ago when I had encyclopedias. I used to just leaf thru the pages till I ran across something that caught my eye. I didn't really pay them any attention at the time. It wasn't until I had started studying the Bible that my mind went back to what I had read.

    Besides filling the prophecy about them, they also happened in the exact order. .(The rest of the 6th seal by the way is still future as it relates to the events at the return of Jesus).

    There is still, according to other chapters of Rev., prophecies that have to be fulfilled before the return of Jesus. ...... Jesus said after those signs would be the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.....Matt. 24:30...He doesn't tell exactly how long after tho. It could be next year or somewhere in the next thousand or 10 thousand( tho I don't believe we actually have to awful long for that day to come) As soon as the rest of the Prophecies fulfill He will be here.
     
  16. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Yeah Rainbow, I read that book too. the one that spells out all of what you just posted, almost verbatim

    A co-woker of mine lent it to me...isn't it SDA in origin?

    One thing stuck out to me.

    Where in the Bible does it say  New England would be the only place of "darkness"?

     

    If it was indeed the fulfillment of Bible prophesy, what prophesy did it fulfill?
     
  17. Hi Mike   The question would be what culture, was extremely familiar with the eschatological language that is involved here?  Everyone christian today knows the Bible was only written to me, me, me, me, me, me, me, us, us, us, us, us, us, us, me.

    And you know there was on such people in the first century called christian, who know about any of these things.  And what about this principle call hermenuetical, Will you also know I don't know how to us it, so there is no such thing in the Bible to me.   So all your good biblical proof in Amos 1:2 means nothing to me. :p

    Does this sound like people we all love and know?
     
  18. davo

    davo Member

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    One thing is for sure, when prophecy is reefed and ripped out of its biblical time frame and context and crassly applied according to our world view and time in history, then indeed it can and does [look at all the evidence] mean anything. In the days of Oliver Cromwell they were living, as they believed and interpreted, in the "Fifth Monarchy" of Daniel.

    davo
     
  19. Hi davo

    Why I am so amazes is the Bible, is the only book, they ripped out of its biblical time frame.  When they read any other book about our history no one rips the pages out of there intended context and runs around says that is me, me, me.  

    They have no idea, that the Bible is God's story to us, to show us, how men sinned and was put out of His presence.  And how Christ Jesus placed us back into the very presence of God.  Sadly all they can see in the Bible is the traditional teaching of men which rips the scripture out of it biblical time frame, and places it in the newspaper head lines and world views.
     
  20. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    One of the biggest problems Christians, in general, have today is that they forget there is such thing as the Old Testament, that the OT is completely irrelevant to the interpretation of the New Testament.  They erroneously think that while the OT can use poetic, exaggerative language with voluminous amounts of metaphoric language, the NT does not.

    People fail to realize that the NT authors borrowed from, alluded to, quoted from, and saw typological fulfillments in the OT, and that the borrowed language needs to be read in the same light as it was originally used.

    Little do Christians understand that Revelation borrows so heavily from the OT that you very well could stick it amongst the Prophets and not realize the difference if it weren't for the mention of Jesus Christ.  Once the key to the OT is turned, Revelation opens itself so wide you can't help but fall through the door!

    Instead, people rip headlines from the news and paste them amongst the words of Christ and the Apostles.
     
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