Preterist interpretation of events?

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Here is a classic example of the interpretive error known as apocalypticism, that is, in the words of N.T. Wright, the exploitation "of apocalyptic language to express a non-biblical dualism in which the heavenly world is good and the earthly bad." In its proper biblical context, apocalyptic language is used (by Paul, Peter, John and the synoptic authors) to draw attention to the heavenly significance of earthly events. In other words, the full significance of seemingly ordinary "events" is often explained with the language of cosmic cataclysm. For what fallen human beings may see as ordinary or mundane, God sees as literally shaking the earth and the heavens to their very foundation.

Which book in the bible did N.T. Wright author again? Your non apocalyptic contention is not consistent with the magnitude in which God says these events will be witnessed.

Even if Jesus will not be seen by every eye literally, He will be seen by many and the Bible is clear that Jesus will return physically in glory. He wouldn't need to return "spiritually", because we have the Holy Spirit.
 
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Mandy

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Originally posted by Patmosman_sga


Here is a classic example of the interpretive error known as apocalypticism, that is, in the words of N.T. Wright, the exploitation "of apocalyptic language to express a non-biblical dualism in which the heavenly world is good and the earthly bad." In its proper biblical context, apocalyptic language is used (by Paul, Peter, John and the synoptic authors) to draw attention to the heavenly significance of earthly events. In other words, the full significance of seemingly ordinary "events" is often explained with the language of cosmic cataclysm. For what fallen human beings may see as ordinary or mundane, God sees as literally shaking the earth and the heavens to their very foundation.

For instance, when the seventy-two returned to Jesus proclaiming, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!" (Luke 10:17), Jesus responded, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven" (v. 18). In other words, in preaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God, healing the sick and casting out demons, the seventy-two were participants in the ongoing cosmic battle of which, from the foundation of the world, Jesus is the victor and Satan is the vanquished. The actual "events" themselves may have looked rather tame (although casting out demons can cause quite a stir), but the ultimate reality behind these temporal "events" was and is the final victory of God in Christ over Satan and the forces of evil--a victory decreed from eternity and seen in the temporal sphere every time a sinner repents, every time a disease is healed, every time a demoniac is delivered. That is, every time the Gospel of God's kingdom of redemption and wholeness is proclaimed, Satan's kingdom of bondage and brokenness is destroyed.

When Scripture employs apocalyptic language to describe "the coming of the Son of Man," it should likewise be understood to be describing an ultimate reality from the perspective of heaven. Indeed, if we read Matthew 24-25 as a complete unit we find, in the parable of the Last Judgment (25:31-46), that "the Son of man" will judge each and every one of us according to how we responded to his "coming" to us as one of "the least of these." To be "ready" for his coming is not to have our eyes fixed permanently on the sky (the Apostles were rebuked for this very thing), but to train our eyes so as to be able to see his glory in the face of a beggar asking for food and drink or the stranger seeking shelter for the night. We must look for the parousia in the minutiae of everyday life. We dare not risk standing in judgment only to find that the One sitting on the throne is that poor stranger we turned away one cold winter night.

Luke 10:18 is referring to when Satan will be cast out of heaven. Many of us do not keep our eyes trained to the sky, because we believe in the rapture and do not know when He will take us up, and furthemore, we believe in occupying until He does. I find it rather fascinating how plain Scripture, can be so misunderstood and made into confusing and illogical doctrine. Scripture is not quite as symbolic as the preterists make it. Do you not consider that God knew that people today would be reading His word and wouldn't make everything as difficult as the preterists do? Yes there are symbolisims, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a physical reality to them, like Luke 10:18.
 
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Originally posted by Manifestation1*AD70


If it is so easy, as you said please show my as I have asked where does the OT prophets distinguish between "a coming in redemption" versus "a coming in judgment?" This king of language is not used by the Jewish prophets. (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2, 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6) Since it is so easy fore you please show me from the Old Testament.

I'll give it a shot later when I've got time to gather the references. I doubt if you'll agree, but I have no problem with that if you don't.
 
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Patmosman_sga

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Those who are fixated on apocalypticism (the denigration of apocalyptic language) draw a false dichotomy between "physical" and "spiritual" reality. Scripture draws no such dichotomy. Rather, it draws a dichotomy between the "natural" and the "spiritual." That which is "spiritual" is no less "physcial" than that which is "natural." The difference is that the "spiritual" is oriented toward God and the things of his kingdom while the "natural" is oriented toward the flesh and the things of this world.

To interpret the Scriptures from a "spiritual" perspective means to interpret them in a posture of absolute yieldedness to the same Holy Spirit who inspired them to be written. It is to inquire into the very mind of God, seeking his wisdom so as to understand his Word as he intended it to be understood.

Our "natural" inclination, however, is to force upon Scripture our own mindset and worldview, assuming that we 21st century Westerners are somehow better qualified to interpret the Scriptures than were the Spirit-inspired 1st century Easterners who originally wrote them. This is a shortcoming of both futurists and preterists.

Contemporary writers such as N.T. Wright and Ben Witherington are reminding us of the necessity of getting back in touch with the original biblical worldview before we, on the one hand, go out proclaiming that the earth is "soon" to be destroyed or, on the other hand, that the final consummation has "already happened" and everything is hunky dory with the world. We would do well to consider their caveat, whatever our eschatological opinion may be.
 
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Originally posted by Patmosman_sga

To interpret the Scriptures from a "spiritual" perspective means to interpret them in a posture of absolute yieldedness to the same Holy Spirit who inspired them to be written. It is to inquire into the very mind of God, seeking his wisdom so as to understand his Word as he intended it to be understood.

Our "natural" inclination, however, is to force upon Scripture our own mindset and worldview, assuming that we 21st century Westerners are somehow better qualified to interpret the Scriptures than were the Spirit-inspired 1st century Easterners who originally wrote them. This is a shortcoming of both futurists and preterists.

Very well said, although I'm not sure the western/eastern thing is that big of an issue.
 
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Mike Beidler

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Originally posted by npetreley
I keep checking my history books, but I still haven't found that event recorded anywhere, and that just doesn't seem like the kind of thing people would gloss over and forget to write about. ;)

Interesting you mention historical records. Isaiah 13 predicts the destruction of the kingdom of Babylon, which was accomplished by Cyrus the Persian in 539 BC. Here is a description of that event:

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, cruel, with fury and burning anger. The make the land [of Babylon] a desolation; and He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light; the sun will be dark when it rises and the moon will not shed its light. ... Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken from its place at the fury of the LORD of hosts in the day of His burning anger. (Isaiah 13:9-10, 13)

As I mentioned above, this destruction of Babylon occured over 2500 years ago; yet, strangely enough, there is no record of eclipses, falling meteors, and earth-shattering quakes to accompany this event. "This is still future," you might say. Well, verse 17 ("Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes [i.e., Medo-Persian empire] against them ...") mitigates against that view.

What say you? These events (as described) don't appear in any history book I've ever read ...
 
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Auntie

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Originally posted by Mandy

Do you not consider that God knew that people today would be reading His word and wouldn't make everything as difficult as the preterists do?

Exactly, Mandy. The scriptures were written for us to understand, without having a PHD in Bible Studies. Even little children in Sunday School can memorize and understand scripture, because they take the Word as it is written.
 
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Mike Beidler

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Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


Exactly, Mandy. The scriptures were written for us to understand, without having a PHD in Bible Studies. Even little children in Sunday School can memorize and understand scripture, because they take the Word as it is written.

Name for me one 5-year-old that can fully explain dispensationalist End Times chronology. "Jesus is coming back and sending that bad, bad Anti-Christ :mad: to Hell" won't cut it.

If dispensationalist End Times chronology is so easy to pull (read: tear) out of Scripture, why has Tim LaHaye been reduced to writing an End Times book with pictures? Isn't quoting Scripture enough for us adults? Or should I just ask my 2-year-old daughter for help? :help:

(On a more serious note, she already knows that Jesus is God. The stranger thing is this: we never taught her that. She's gonna be Daddy's little theologian ... :D )
 
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davo

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Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
Those who are fixated on apocalypticism (the denigration of apocalyptic language) draw a false dichotomy between "physical" and "spiritual" reality. Scripture draws no such dichotomy. Rather, it draws a dichotomy between the "natural" and the "spiritual." That which is "spiritual" is no less "physcial" than that which is "natural." The difference is that the "spiritual" is oriented toward God and the things of his kingdom while the "natural" is oriented toward the flesh and the things of this world.

I would say this "false dichotomy between "physical" and "spiritual" reality" is rife in our modern church -this idea that 'the spirit is good and the flesh is evil' -it was once called gnosticism. As for the inclination toward either God -"the Spirit" or "the flesh" and how that fits with "this world," I think if we look at it through 1st century eyes, much of what Paul wrote about "the flesh" and its incumberances he in fact wrote about The Law i.e., the Old Covenant, the dead 'body' of Judaism -that which the 1st century believers were being raised out of [that progressive work of "Christ being formed in you"].

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
Contemporary writers such as N.T. Wright and Ben Witherington are reminding us of the necessity of getting back in touch with the original biblical worldview before we, on the one hand, go out proclaiming that the earth is "soon" to be destroyed or, on the other hand, that the final consummation has "already happened" and everything is hunky dory with the world. We would do well to consider their caveat, whatever our eschatological opinion may be.

"and everything is hunky dory with the world." This is an oft assumed impression of what covenant eschatology teaches, it is a misunderstanding and quite wrong. The preteristic approach denies none of the "earthly trouble" etc and has no "rose-coloured glasses." It simply declares that salvation is complete through Christ's literal [read: NOT physical] Parousia as He promised in the 1st century generation. We reject as unbiblical the notion that after His Return the world was to take on a re-made utopic state devoid of the presence of sin or evil. Rev 22 should be evidence enough of this. The "New Heaven and Earth" wherein dwells righeousness has "leaves of healing for the nations" -presupposing sickness, therefore sin, therefore death. This healing is obviously for those "outside" the city [outside of covenant with God] -the gates being open 24/7 to recieve the repentant always -hence the Gospel being "everlasting" Rev 14:6 -no limited tenure! And not forgetting the "last enemy to be destroyed is death" is already cast long into the Lake of Fire. There is NOTHING that separates one from God EXCEPT one's decision not to accept His restoration.

The New Heaven and the New Earth is apocalyptic covenantal language of the New Covenant IN CHRIST:

2Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

davo
 
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Originally posted by Mike Beidler

As I mentioned above, this destruction of Babylon occured over 2500 years ago; yet, strangely enough, there is no record of eclipses, falling meteors, and earth-shattering quakes to accompany this event. "This is still future," you might say. Well, verse 17 ("Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes [i.e., Medo-Persian empire] against them ...") mitigates against that view.

What say you? These events (as described) don't appear in any history book I've ever read ...

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you implying that because Babylon was destroyed once that it cannot be destroyed again? Did you know that Israel did not exist for nearly 2000 years? If I had posed to you 100 years ago the idea that some prophecy regarding Israel was in the future, you would have chuckled over my stupidity because there was no Israel for the fulfillment of any such prophecy. Yet here it is today.

Or are you saying that the destruction of Babylon predicted in Revelation and sandwiched between events that preterists say occurred in 70AD actually occurred a half millenium earlier but somehow waited to be fulfilled in 70AD?
 
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Auntie

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Originally posted by Mike Beidler

On a more serious note, she already knows that Jesus is God. The stranger thing is this: we never taught her that.

Mike, that's amazing! Your little precious one proves my point! The things that are important, the things that matter, God will write those things upon our heart! Your daughter is proof of that! Praise God, only the Holy Spirit could have told her that.
 
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Mike Beidler

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Originally posted by npetreley


I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you implying that because Babylon was destroyed once that it cannot be destroyed again? Did you know that Israel did not exist for nearly 2000 years? If I had posed to you 100 years ago the idea that some prophecy regarding Israel was in the future, you would have chuckled over my stupidity because there was no Israel for the fulfillment of any such prophecy. Yet here it is today.

Or are you saying that the destruction of Babylon predicted in Revelation and sandwiched between events that preterists say occurred in 70AD actually occurred a half millenium earlier but somehow waited to be fulfilled in 70AD?

In your first paragraph, you've completely sullied the futurist doctrine of the imminent return of Christ. "Israel has to be reborn in order for Christ to return." So there are things that have to be fulfilled for Christ to return again??? All these millennia, people have been deceived into thinking Christ could return at any moment???

As for the destruction of Babylon in Revelation, I'm saying to you that Babylon in that book is not the literal Babylon, but rather a derogatory term used of Jerusalem. If you'd like, I can take the time to prove without a doubt that the Babylon referenced in Revelation is, indeed, Jerusalem. (Just don't expect anything soon. I may be leaving for another week of at-sea training tomorrow.)
 
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Patmosman_sga

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Originally posted by Mike Beidler


Name for me one 5-year-old that can fully explain dispensationalist End Times chronology. "Jesus is coming back and sending that bad, bad Anti-Christ :mad: to Hell" won't cut it.

If dispensationalist End Times chronology is so easy to pull (read: tear) out of Scripture, why has Tim LaHaye been reduced to writing an End Times book with pictures? Isn't quoting Scripture enough for us adults? Or should I just ask my 2-year-old daughter for help? :help:

Dispensationalists are the true architechts of confusion in the Church. They don't even agree with each other on some of their most "fundamental" points. Tim LaHaye is in hot water with other dispy's because he says people can be saved "after" the rapture. I thought all good dispy's knew that was impossible! :D
 
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Mandy...

I don't have proof, but from the description of the babylon of Revelation...it appears it could be no other but Jerusalem(Israel)...

We begin with John(Jesus) describing Babylon as the "great Harlot...with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication." Jerusalem in the O.T. is described as God's wife or bride turned to harlotry..."You spread your legs to every passerby to multiply your harlotry" Ezekial 16:25...There are other places in Ezekial and Isaih the describe Jerusalem as a harlot...this may not convince you, but another description is the clincher for me...

First "Mother of harlots...drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus" and Second, "in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth"...this could only be Jerusalem in my opinion...and it coincides with one of Jesus' condemnations/indictments he laid down during his time on earth as a human...
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, that upon you may fall ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth...Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!"
 
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Originally posted by Mike Beidler

In your first paragraph, you've completely sullied the futurist doctrine of the imminent return of Christ.

I hope so. ;) I don't see any evidence whatsoever for that doctrine, myself.

Originally posted by Mike Beidler

"Israel has to be reborn in order for Christ to return." So there are things that have to be fulfilled for Christ to return again??? All these millennia, people have been deceived into thinking Christ could return at any moment???

Yes, if that's how long it's been. IMO the doctrine of imminence is more recent than most people think. A hymn comes to mind, for example (It is well with my soul) that describes the fact that we'll see the celestial events of the Day of the Lord. This not only contradicts pre-trib rapture, it contradicts imminence. So not everyone has believed that for all time.

And by the way, I'm not saying Israel had to be reborn for Christ to return. All I'm saying is that prophecy states that Israel would be scattered to all the nations (which happened about 130AD) and that they would be regathered (which is happening now). So prophecy is being fulfilled before our very eyes. I personally think that this has to happen before Christ returns, but that's not what I was saying.

Originally posted by Mike Beidler

As for the destruction of Babylon in Revelation, I'm saying to you that Babylon in that book is not the literal Babylon, but rather a derogatory term used of Jerusalem. If you'd like, I can take the time to prove without a doubt that the Babylon referenced in Revelation is, indeed, Jerusalem. (Just don't expect anything soon. I may be leaving for another week of at-sea training tomorrow.)

You may be right that Babylon is not the literal Babylon. But it may not be Jerusalem, either. (I don't see at all how it could be Jerusalem, but I could be wrong.) But for the umpteenth time, why is it that you think it is being consistent to take words like "GENERATION" and "YOU" and say that you can only interpret them ONE way, yet you can assign just about any meaning you want to words like "SEE" and "BABYLON"? I'm not asking you to see things my way, just to consider the possibility that there are...well, other possibilities! ;)
 
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parousia70

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Originally posted by npetreley


All I'm saying is that prophecy states that Israel would be scattered to all the nations (which happened about 130AD) and that they would be regathered (which is happening now). So prophecy is being fulfilled before our very eyes.

All the prophecies about the dispersion and return of the Jews to their own land were fulfilled at the end the Babylonian Captivity in 457 B.C.,— not 1948 when the State of Israel was formed.

"In all your dwelling places the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places desolate . . . ye shall be scattered among the countries . . . among the nations whither they shall be carried captives . . . all the house of Israel shall remove and go into captivity . . . I will scatter them among the nations" (Ezekiel ch. 6–12).

This was the Diaspora. . . . And now the re-gathering of the Jews to their own land 70 years later:

"For thus saith the Lord, that after 70 years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you . . . and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations . . . and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive" (Jeremiah. 29: 10-14).

Not one single verse in the Old Testament, or New, written after the Babylonian Captivity mentions any other dispersion and re-gathering of the Jews.
 
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Originally posted by parousia70

All the prophecies about the dispersion and return of the Jews to their own land were fulfilled at the end the Babylonian Captivity in 457 B.C.

...

Not one single verse in the Old Testament, or New, written after the Babylonian Captivity mentions any other dispersion and re-gathering of the Jews.

No? How about this one? (Luke 21)

23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

There are prophecies about the regathering of Jews to their land, but the various prophecies have one very distinct difference. Some of them speak about the regathering of Judah and Israel to their former states, and other prophecies talk about the regathering of Judah and Israel into ONE state where there is no distinction between Judah and Israel. The latter NEVER happened until 1948. When what we now know as Israel was destroyed in 130AD, there were still two states (provinces, whatever you want to call them), Judah and Israel. Today there is only one -- Israel, and there is no distinction anymore.

So the "plain and simple meaning" of these prophecies makes it pretty clear that there is more than one regathering from dispersal -- there are at least two.
 
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parousia70

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As I said,
Not one single verse in the Old Testament, or New, written after the Babylonian Captivity mentions any other dispersion and re-gathering of the Jews.

Luke 21 indeed mentions a dispersion.

What is the scripture that prophesies the regathering in 1948 from the dispersion in Luke 21??
 
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