• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Preterist interpretation of events?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by npetreley, Jun 21, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

    +2
    I already told you. All of the scriptures in the OT that refer to the regathering of the Jews into a union where Judah and Israel were no longer separate could not have been fulfilled before 1948, because the last time there was an Israel before that, Judah and Israel were separate. They are now one and the same -- there is no distinction between Judah and Israel. That was predicted in some of those regathering prophecies in the OT.
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,937
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Ok, but could you Humor me with a chapter and verse of just "one" of those "regathering" prophesies you believe could only have been fulfilled in 1948?

    Telling me they are there isn't of much help if you can't point me to them specifically.
    Thanks.
     
  3. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

    375
    +3
    Protestant
    Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant by coming in the flesh and giving his life for the sins of humankind on the cross.

    If there are any Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled, then Jesus is not who he said he was and his sacrifice did not fulfill its purpose.

    The promises made to Israel under the Old Covenant are inherited by the Church under the New Covenant.

     
  4. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

    +2
    Sorry - I thought you'd be familiar with these verses, but that was my mistake (and I'm honestly not being critical or sarcastic, in case you suspect that).

    There's at least one or two other places in the OT which make it more clear that Judah and Israel will be united (if I recall correctly, one used a metaphor of a stick that is joined together). But I like this one because it not only predicts that Judah and Israel will be united under one head, but it also places that event AFTER the time of the gentiles. (See Romans 9:26, which quotes from verse 10 to illustrate that although the Jews hadn't expected it, the Bible always said that the gentiles would be saved.)

    Whoops - I forgot to tell you where this is from! Hosea 1:10-11.
     
  5. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

    +2
    I hope you're not saying that the church replaced Israel and the Jews will no longer receive these promises.
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,937
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    When the fleshly covenant-nation was disinherited as God's covenant people in 70, God's wrath against her was finished. After that day, the Jews became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15). And there is not one class (or "race") of man today that is in any sense acepted or rejected by God because of DNA, but all are freely accepted in Christ.

    God is not denying one single Jew free access to the promise, through Jesus Christ. All are accepted.


    The Chuirch did not replace Israel, The Church always was "Israel". True Isreal was always the believing remnant.
     
  7. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Right on the money!

    Hence: "This is He, that was in the church in the wilderness" [God has always had His believing people -the just, finding LIFE through faith]

    davo
     
  8. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

    +2

    According to plain, simple, clear reading of this passage in Romans, Israel isn't the same thing as the church, or else Paul wouldn't be speaking of them separately. And it also seems like there is an unfulfilled prophecy right here.
     
  9. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    They certainly were separate, and as for your: "seems like there is an unfulfilled prophecy right here" -you are correct. What you probably may not have considered is this -it was at THAT time in the process of being fulfilled -and in His Parousia was.

    The Church came in and completed Israel -so all Israel being saved. They were [the Gentiles] not a people, yet when they joined Christ they joined the commonwealth of Israel -inheriting ALL the promises. Now futurists tend to poo-hoo this as "spiritualising" [yet do all the same themselves, variously], but the epistles are full of this. Abraham waited for a city whose builder is God -this speaks of nothing other than salvation -"Abraham saw My day and rejoiced" etc etc etc. This IS the substance [reality-fulfillment] to the shadows prefigured under the old regime.

    When Christ came in His Parousia this was the "turning away ungodliness from Jacob" -salvation complete i.e., RESTORATION. Israel was elected to be the way or mean of salvation in the sense that the Christ was promised through them -they were to be the light to the Gentiles -as Jesus said: "salvation is of the Jews" -Israel Fulfilled her calling for the REMNANT which included the Gentiles was saved.

    The temporary hardening of Israel's heart was working salvation for the Gentiles which in turn was working jealousy for Israel -prompting many Jews to turn to Christ [just read through Acts and note how many were responding in faith -especially from the hierarchhy]. Jesus had said: "I have flock from another fold that I must gather that there be one flock and one Shepherd" -making out of the two ONE NEW MAN.

    Christ's Cross worked salvation for Israel which in turn worked salvation for the whole world. The families of the earth are blessed through BELIEVING [noun] Abraham. While temple sacrifices were being offered [though post cross meaningless] the way into the Holiest of All [SALVATION] was not yet complete. When the Temple came down this would be THE sign ["what will be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age?" -the old covenant age] that so had Christ -filling his Body, the Church with His fulness -God filling all in all.

    davo
     
  10. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Has anyone read Ezekiel 37? It shows perfectly the regathering of the Jews and is I believe the Scripture npetreley is referring to.
     
  11. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    How is it impossible, when Revelation makes it clear?
     
  12. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Babylon is not Jerusalem. God isn't through with Israel as stated in the Scriptures. The 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes in Revelation shows this, as does Romans. Look at the woman with the Child in Revelation, the woman is Israel. Read Ezekiel 37-39, too. After the rapture, God will deal with Israel again, this is when the fulness of the gentile will be complete.
     
  13. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Ezekiel 37 is in deed the "regathering of the Jews" in the "Resurrection" through their acceptance of the New Covenant in Christ -the Remnant. "The Gathering" in Scripture is in fact "The Resurrection."

    davo
     
  14. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +1
    Mandy,

    Who is the child described in Revelations in your opinion? I also have another question. How come Jesus(answer to the previous question) described Jerusalem as having all the righteous blood shed on their necks...then Revelation(Jesus) says that Babylon has all the blood of the prophets etc etc. and there is no possible way in your mind you can connect those two?

    Also what do you mean "God will deal with Israel again"...if He were to allow the Jewish system to be re-instituted(by that I mean, look at it as He used to...because they can re-institute it if they want to) it would go against everything He did in Jesus Christ. He is THE sacrifice that is worthy. He is THE Lamb that brought redemption to you and I. If He annoints any kind of ritualistic offering again in any Temple of God He goes against Himself which we both know can't happen.

    Now I do agree God is dealing with Israel, but I don't believe He ever STOPPED. Israel, the real Israel, continued on after Jesus which one can be a part of not by circumcision of the flesh, but of the spirit. Which includes you and I and anyone else that is born again. The N.T. discusses this metamorphises(sp) time and time again.
     
  15. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

    375
    +3
    Protestant
    Since I reject the whole premise of "pre-trib rapture" (and also the whole premise that Revelation is a "roadmap of history" or a "blueprint of the future"), I'm not the one to ask.

    Ask, instead, one of your radical dispensationalist friends who disagrees with LaHaye's position concerning post-rapture salvation.
     
  16. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

    90
    +0
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Republican
    As I continue to read through the Bible in a year, I've come to the prophet Amos.  Interesting things here, from a preterist perspective.

    Amos 1:2 -- "Amos said: 'The LORD comes roaring out of Zion; from Jerusalem he comes bellowing!  The shepherds' pastures wilt; the summit of Carmel withers.'"

    In context, the LORD is coming in judgment against Damascus, Gaza, Tyre, Edom, Ammon, Moab, and ultimately Judah and Israel. Interestingly enough, all of the judgments contained in Amos 1-2 were fulfilled in the past.  Of this there is no dispute between eschatological camps.

    But here's the kicker: the LORD is said to "come" and his "coming" results in pastures wilting and the mountaintop withering.  Is there any historical record of these things actually happening, or are we to assume that the language is exaggerative and metaphorical?  What are we to think of this "coming" language?  Can we apply the same hermenuetical principle to Christ's description of His own coming, which uses similar language?

    (Remember, hermenuetical principles should not have to change when going to and from the Old and New Testaments.  The same culture, which was extremely familiar with eschatological language, is involved here.)
     
  17. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

    90
    +0
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Republican
    Here's another interesting passage:

     

    Amos 5:2 -- "The young lady Israel [10 northern tribes] has fallen down and will not get up again."

    Any comments?
     
  18. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

    90
    +0
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Republican
    Another good one:

    Amos 5:18 -- "Those who wish for the LORD's day of judgment are as good as dead!  Why do you want the LORD's day of judgment to come?  It will bring darkness, not light."

    This is obviously a reference to a "Day of the LORD."  Since the prophecies in Amos were fulfilled before the time of Christ, is it not reasonable that God has "come" many times to many nations?  Is it not reasonable that each "coming" of God is considered a "Day of the LORD"?

    From the study notes of the NET Bible (p. 1647):

    "The origin of the concept of the LORD's day of judgment is uncertain.  Perhaps it originated in the ancient Near Eastern idea of the sovereign's day of conquest, where a king would boast that he had concluded an entire military campaign in a single day (see D. Stuart, "The Sovereign's Day of Conquest, BASOR 221 [1976]: 159-64).  In the OT the expression is applied to several acts of divine judgment, some historical and others still future (see A. J. Everson, "The Days of Yahwh," JBL 93 [1974]: 329-37).  In the OT the phrase first appears in Amos (assuming that Amos predates Joel and Obadiah), where it seems to refer to a belief in the northern kingdom that God would intervene on Israel's behalf and judge the nation's enemies.  Amos affirms that the LORD's day of judgment is indeed approaching, but he declares that it will be a day of disaster, not deliverance, for Israel."

    Amos 6:14 is also interesting in that the literal, physical method by which the "Day of the LORD" is fulfilled is through the use of another nation's armies.
     
  19. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

    90
    +0
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Republican
    Amos 7:2 -- "When they [the locusts] had completely consumed the earth's vegetation, I said, 'Sovereign LORD, forgive Israel!  How can Jacob survive?  He is too weak!"

    Does this mention of "earth" encompass the entire world, or is it localized?  If so, what about those passages in the Olivet Discourse and other places where the "earth" is mentioned in the context of the spreading of the Gospel or the mourning of the tribes of the earth?

    In the same context as the rest of Amos' prophecies, this is said of the "earth":

    Amos 8:8 -- "'Because of this the earth will quake, and all who live in it will mourn.  The whole earth will rise like the River Nile, it will surge upward and then grow calm, like the Nile in Egypt.  In that day,' says the sovereign LORD, 'I will make the sun set at noon, and make the earth dark in the middle of the day.'" 

    Note the apparent universality here in reference to the earth and "all," even though the prophecy was local according to the context and biblical history!  Note also the sun darkening!!!  Sound familiar?

    Look at this:

    Amos 9:5 -- "He touches the earth and it dissolves; all who live on it will mourn."

    Wow!  All this poetic, apocalyptic language to describe the simple act of judging the 10 northern tribes of Israel, an accomplished act in history wrought by the armies of Assyria (722 BC) and Babylon (605 BC) ...

    I know of no futurist who argues that these prophecies I've mentioned have not yet been fulfilled.  Futurist John Walvoord, in Every Prophecy of the Bible (pp. 290-296), admits that they were fulfilled in the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities.  Think about this.

    Although it's probably coincidence, it's interesting to note that Amos prophesied c. 760 BC.  The acts of judgment against Israel began in 722 BC ... less than 40 years from Amos' predictions ... the length of a biblical generation.
     
  20. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

    90
    +0
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Republican
    Now I'm reading Hosea ...

    Can God reject physical Israel as the chosen people? Certainly: "... you are not my people and I am not your God." (Hosea 1:9)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...