Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I haven't read all the books (up to Apollyon, I think), but where does it show people getting a second chance? As long as you are alive, you are still working on your FIRST chance.Serapha said:The "Left Behind" series teached that people will be given a second chance.... and that's not biblical.
~serapha~
Consider:parousia70 said:Atonement for sins, and therefore salvation, can not be achieved outside of the impution of the righteousness of Christ brought by faith in his saving work on the cross.
If you need further clarification, let me know.
But the Bible does not say that the Jews were rejected as a people, which is what we were discussing.stauron said:Toms777 says that they were not rejected, but the Bible says that they were, Who shall we believe?
Quote me where I said "any", the word which you emphasize. As I have said before, race does not enter into salvation. Just as God did not reject the Jews as a people (contrary to what some preterists appear to say), he also did not reject the Gentiles as a people. Neither did he save either the Jews or the gentiles as an entire race.Please address post #246 You keep trying to say that God did not reject any Jews. You have failed to understand Paul's argument and ignored the context of Romans.
Ah, so then you will agree with me that salvation was available before Jesus died on the cross, not outside of the cross, but through faith in the Messiah to come. The rituals under the OC did not save, but all the OC pointed towards the coming Messiah.No one was saved by the Old Covenant. It was a ministry of death. The primary focus of the Old was condemnation, it gave power to sin. It was not able to make the conscience clean.
Abraham indeed heard the gospel and looked forward to Christ, and he and all the saints longed and anticipated for the Christ as their hope and the fulfillment of the promises.
Just as people who put their faith in the Church or their theological system will find that there is no salvation in either of those, the Jews who put their faith in the rituals rather than Him to whom the rituals pointed are not saved.So, to bring this back on topic, when the Old Covenant ended, those people that continued to put their faith in it rather than the One with whom they covenanted, they were cast out and suffered more than any before or since
Okay, so the OC pointed prophetically towards the coming Messiah and His sacrifice on teh cross. I disagree agree with your definition of salvation. THose who are not saved are destined for hell upon their death, but these folk who were spared hell, but rather went to paradise (part of hades) awaiting the time when <b>part</b> of hades was emptied.parousia70 said:Toms7, no one was saved until Christ's work on the cross.
Some indeed had the promise of salvation, but not the thing itself. After they physically died, They were kept in Sheol, apart from the presence of God, until the parousia in 70 when Hades was emptied and the righteous dead were bodily resurrected into God's presence.
It was at that point, and not before, that they were "Saved".
Suede said:+++In the same conversation, the comments were made about pregnancy.+++
So? So what? Theres also comments about other things in there, that doesnt elminate the only audience which is the disciples.
+++Your Rev 22 must be written different than mine.
Rev 22:3
3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.+++
Actually it isnt. You read the wrong verse. Besides though, the sons of God, Christians, arent under the curse of sin. So, my view is apt either way.
+++Your theology still allows for sin to prevail, thus says that Jesus is not fully in control.+++
Who said sin was going away forever? No one. You still sin, but you are saved, because Jesus IS in control. However, one can only have their sins washed away if they are a believer. But not everyone is a believer, nor will the world ever be entirely Christian.
Only Christians have the benefit of no sin through Jesus, not the entire world. Thats universalism.
Toms777 said:Scripture says that when the final judgement comes, that ther unsaved will spend eternity in hell.
Well, if they were already saved, why did they have to wait?Toms777 said:Okay, so the OC pointed prophetically towards the coming Messiah and His sacrifice on teh cross. I disagree agree with your definition of salvation. THose who are not saved are destined for hell upon their death, but these folk who were spared hell, but rather went to paradise (part of hades) awaiting the time when <b>part</b> of hades was emptied.
Clearly a differentiation was made between those who had faith in the redemption of the coming Messiah and those who did not.
Now that Christ came and established His kingdom on earth, there is no way other than through Christ to appear righteous before God.Toms777 said:Interesting.
How does one become righteous outside of Christ?
So are you saying that there were two ways to be saved - one before the cross and a different way to be saved afterward?armothe said:Now that Christ came and established His kingdom on earth, there is no way other than through Christ to appear righteous before God.
Prior to Christ's advent- there was no kingdom established on earth at that time. Thus righteousness was acreditted to those who were faithful towards God.
Future salvation may have been earned through righteousness in the OT- but was not yet a reality until Christ's work on earth was complete, and perhaps as some believe; preached the gospel to those in Hades. Remember - "No one comes to the father but by me".
Thus, I would propose that Abraham and Noah were declared righteous due to their faith - but had not yet gained a "salvation" of everlasting life in God's kingdom. At least not until Christ unlocked the keys of Hades and stood to judge the dead at his second coming.
-A
Suede said:Toms777,
+++I have no problem with it, but the preterists on here have said that the message is intended exclusively for those who originally heard the message,+++
Well, it's the Bible that says that, so we as Christians must believe that. Remeber, the Bible states it was a PRIVATE conversation.
Why do you always mis-represent what i say by changing teh wording? Could you please try to actually refer to what I actually said? I never said that they were outside the presence of God. How could that be?parousia70 said:Well, if they were already saved, why did they have to wait?
You admit they were not brought into the presence of God, indeed kept apart from Him, yet you argue they had complete salvation.
How does that work exactly?
What were they missing?
You're not much for context are you? Paul is speaking of the nation of Israel. He contrasts the 7000 with the rest of the nation.Toms777 said:But the Bible does not say that the Jews were rejected as a people, which is what we were discussing.
But the Bible clearly says that Israel was rejected. God rejected the gentiles in the selection of Abraham to father the race that would become His people. The Old Covenant was not about salvation and gave the Israelites the special privilege of being God's servant.toms777 said:Quote me where I said "any", the word which you emphasize. As I have said before, race does not enter into salvation. Just as God did not reject the Jews as a people (contrary to what some preterists appear to say), he also did not reject the Gentiles as a people. Neither did he save either the Jews or the gentiles as an entire race.
To them belong the adoption as sons, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises. 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.
I am glad we agree on this point, because this is the whole argument. The Jews believed they were God's people. The remnant believed Christ. The greatest suffering ever of all time, before or since, was those Jews that continued to cling to the dung of the Old Covenant and called themselves the people of God, but were really the synagogue of satan. They killed the Messiah, spurned God's grace and persecuted the 7000. They were hardened and when their judgement came it was the worst ever. So now that we agree on this point let's move on to your other objections.toms777 said:Just as people who put their faith in the Church or their theological system will find that there is no salvation in either of those, the Jews who put their faith in the rituals rather than Him to whom the rituals pointed are not saved.
Agreed.
Yes, and No.Toms777 said:So are you saying that there were two ways to be saved - one before the cross and a different way to be saved afterward?
Toms777 said:Also, the Book of Reveleation was written in 96 AD, AFTER 70 AD.
Toms777 said:For this to be true, then you would have to tell me that the tribulation of the destruction of Jersualem (and yes I have read Josephus from end to end) is worse than the entire holocaust that was initiated under Hitler, and the massacre of 1-2 million Cambodians under Pol Pot.
Having studied the events of the holocaust under Hitler and having watched events through the news unfold in Cambodia under Pol Pot, and having read Josephus from end to end and the area regarding the destruction of Jersalem a number of times, I cannot see any possible way to justify such a position.
.....................................
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?