Preterism

[GW]

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


GW, You interpret this literally, and yet other scriptures you say are just symbolic. You can't just pick and choose what you want to fit your doctrine.

We know from the lips of Jesus himself how we are to interpret the time statments concerning the end -- very seriously! Jesus said...

"See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'THE TIME IS NEAR.' Do not go after them (NASB - Luke 21:8)

Jesus gives us clear warning here; saying "the time is near" is to be understood LITERALLY as a very short timeframe -- many deceivers would say that too early. Only the apostles had the authority to say "THE TIME IS NEAR" and have support from Jesus that end time indeed had come. Well, what did the apostles of our Lord say a few decades after the resurrection?


PETER:
"But the end of all things IS AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7)


JAMES
"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord... be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord IS NEAR...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. (James 5:7-9)


PAUL:
"But I say this, my brothers, THE TIME IS SHORT; and from now it will be wise for those who have wives to be as if they had them not " (1 Cor 7:29)

"for yet A VERY VERY LITTLE [WHILE], He who is coming will come, and will not tarry" (Hebrews 10:37)

"Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, AND THE DAY IS NEAR." (Rom 13:11-12)


JOHN
"Dear children, THE LAST HOUR IS COME; and as you once heard that there was to be an anti-Christ, so even now many anti-Christs have appeared. By this we know that THE LAST HOUR IS COME." (1 John 2:18)

"This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things WHICH MUST HAPPEN SOON ... Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written in it, FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND." ( Revelation 1:1,3)



Futurists, of course, don't take any of the apostles' time statments LITERALLY. Yet Jesus said that those who would say 'THE TIME IS NEAR' were not to be followed by the apostles. The only ones who had the authority to determine the true time of the end of the age was the apostles -- yet they all declared 'THE TIME IS NEAR.' Since Jesus takes the statement 'THE TIME IS NEAR' to be a LITERAL declaration that the endtime has come, then futurists cannot take allegorically all the apostles statements saying 'THE TIME IS NEAR'. This presents two dilemmas for futurists:

(1) If the apostles said 'THE TIME IS NEAR' when the time was not yet even close, then they were the very false ones specified by Luke 21:8!

(2)If the apostles said 'THE TIME IS NEAR," and Jesus takes that statement to mean literally that the endtime has come, then futurists must ALSO take such statements by the apostles to mean the time has indeed come and must believe the apostles on the issue of TIME or else declare them false prophets. The option of allegorizing time statements away is not permitted by Luke 21:8, for Jesus takes such statements to mean the end has indeed come.

Which option do you choose?

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by Kelier
I find it very interesting that preterists make literal those things that were not meant to be completely literal and yet spiritualize the things that were meant to be literal.

Hey Kelier, I posted almost the same words only minutes before you--the Holy Spirit is at work here!


My Post:
"GW, You interpret this literally, and yet other scriptures you say are just symbolic. You can't just pick and choose what you want to fit your doctrine."

 

[Kelier]

LOL! How very interesting!

 

[GW]

Originally posted by Kelier
Hour:
5610 hora ho'-rah

apparently a primary word; an "hour" (literally or figuratively):--day, hour, instant, season, X short, (even-)tide, (high) time.

I find it very interesting that preterists make literal those things that were not meant to be completely literal and yet spiritualize the things that were meant to be literal.

Hi Kelier,

As I just showed in my last post to Auntie, preterists are literalists on the numerous N.T. statements that Christ's coming was "near," "soon," and "at hand" in the apostles time because Jesus Christ himself told them to take such statements LITERALLY as meaning the end had come! Like here:

Luke 21:8
And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'THE TIME IS NEAR.' Do not go after them.

Jesus is taking this phrase "THE TIME IS NEAR" in its literal sense to mean that the end had come. The apostles, the only ones authorized by Jesus to make these staments and NOT be false prophets, made them within 40 years after the resurrection!


James 5:8-9
for the coming of the Lord IS NEAR...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.

 

[Kelier]

GW,
What Bible version do you use?

 

[GW]

Originally posted by Kelier
GW,
What Bible version do you use?

Mostly NASB and KJV, but also Young's Literal. Are you doubting that the apostles said what they clearly said?


PETER:
"But the end of all things IS AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7)


JAMES
"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord... be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord IS NEAR...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. (James 5:7-9)


PAUL:
"But I say this, my brothers, THE TIME IS SHORT; and from now it will be wise for those who have wives to be as if they had them not " (1 Cor 7:29)

"for yet A VERY VERY LITTLE [WHILE], He who is coming will come, and will not tarry" (Hebrews 10:37)

"Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, AND THE DAY IS NEAR." (Rom 13:11-12)


JOHN
"Dear children, THE LAST HOUR IS COME; and as you once heard that there was to be an anti-Christ, so even now many anti-Christs have appeared. By this we know that THE LAST HOUR IS COME." (1 John 2:18)

"This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things WHICH MUST HAPPEN SOON ... Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written in it, FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND." ( Revelation 1:1,3)


Remember, Jesus Christ teaches us that these time statements are to be understood LITERALLY as signalling the end had come (see Luke 21:8). We have the apostles breaking out in unified voice together that indeed the Lord's return was "NEAR" -- and they did so within 4 decades after the crucifixion and resurrection.

It's time to start believing the bible, folks. The Holy Spirit is indeed at work here. He is working to get his people to believe what He said through the holy INSPIRED apostles . Christ's return was back in the 1st century as the apostles said under inspiration of the Holy Ghost and they could not err. Do not doubt, but be believing.

 

[Shaggy]

C'mon GW, if this stuff has already taken place, where are we now? The end will be the end, in order for these scriptures to take place ALL people on Earth will witness it. Where do we stand? Is there a 3rd coming?

 

[Kelier]

GW,
I think that some of verses in the Gospels were in reference to 70AD (for instance the first few verses of Matt chapter 24, but from verse 15 on it is dealing with the Great Tribulation), but definately not all of them. I think though that you are blurring things. I believe in the broad spectrum of things the time was short and it must be considered that Jesus made a big deal about keeping watch and waiting because no one would know the time. Answer these at least, Do preterists believe that Jesus came a second time, and if so, what did He do, what was the point of it? Did every eye see Him? If the tribulation is already past, why wasn't it documented? I am no great debater and I won't even pretend to be, but I know what I believe.

 

[Auntie]

Gw, I understand that you must interpret those scriptures the way you do, or else it would leave a big whole in the preterist theory. The problem is you then try to convince everyone that the whole Bible was written allegorically(sp?), saying that was the way they wrote in those days, including Jesus. I understand that some things in the Bible are symbolic and some literal. But anyone can call anything literal or spiritual. But I've noticed especially with the preterists, if something doesn't fit they make it a spiritual/symbolic thing.

 

[GW]

Originally posted by Shaggy
C'mon GW, if this stuff has already taken place, where are we now? The end will be the end, in order for these scriptures to take place ALL people on Earth will witness it. Where do we stand? Is there a 3rd coming?

Shaggy,

What did Jesus say in Luke 21:8? He said that the statement "THE LORD IS NEAR" is to be understood literally as a declaration that the end had come.

What did his holy inspired apostles say before their generation had ended?

Are you doubting that the apostles said what they clearly said?


PETER:
"But the end of all things IS AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7)


JAMES
"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord... be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord IS NEAR...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. (James 5:7-9)


PAUL:
"But I say this, my brothers, THE TIME IS SHORT; and from now it will be wise for those who have wives to be as if they had them not " (1 Cor 7:29)

"for yet A VERY VERY LITTLE [WHILE], He who is coming will come, and will not tarry" (Hebrews 10:37)

"Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, AND THE DAY IS NEAR." (Rom 13:11-12)


JOHN
"Dear children, THE LAST HOUR IS COME; and as you once heard that there was to be an anti-Christ, so even now many anti-Christs have appeared. By this we know that THE LAST HOUR IS COME." (1 John 2:18)

"This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things WHICH MUST HAPPEN SOON ... Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written in it, FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND." ( Revelation 1:1,3)


Remember, Jesus Christ teaches us that these time statements are to be understood LITERALLY as signalling the end had come (see Luke 21:8). We have the apostles breaking out in unified voice together that indeed the Lord's return was "NEAR" -- and they did so within 4 decades after the crucifixion and resurrection.

It's time to start believing the bible, folks. Christ's return was back in the 1st century as the apostles said under inspiration of the Holy Ghost , and they could not err.

 

[Auntie]

The preterist say ALL has been fullfilled, including the 2nd Coming of Christ. I think they say Christ's 2nd Coming was like a spiritual thing, correct me if I'm wrong there, GW.

 

[GW]

Originally posted by Kelier
GW,
I think that some of verses in the Gospels were in reference to 70AD (for instance the first few verses of Matt chapter 24, but from verse 15 on it is dealing with the Great Tribulation), but definately not all of them. I think though that you are blurring things. I believe in the broad spectrum of things the time was short and it must be considered that Jesus made a big deal about keeping watch and waiting because no one would know the time. Answer these at least, Do preterists believe that Jesus came a second time, and if so, what did He do, what was the point of it? Did every eye see Him? If the tribulation is already past, why wasn't it documented? I am no great debater and I won't even pretend to be, but I know what I believe.

Before we all move on I just want to make sure you all don't go blowing by this. We're dealing with the Holy inspired Word of God here.

Jesus Christ demanded that the phrase "THE LORD IS NEAR" be taken literally as a declaration of the end.


"See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'THE TIME IS NEAR.' Do not go after them (NASB - Luke 21:8)


All of the apostles make this precise declaration before the close of THEIR generation. They could not err -- it is time for futurists to start believing the bible.

They were working within the timeframe that Jesus Christ was to return before the end of their generation to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple as Jesus promised them to their faces (Matthew 24:33-34/Matt 23:36). They knew how to tell time. Why don't futurists?

God bless,
GW

 

[Kelier]

Originally posted by GW


Before we all move on I just want to make sure you all don't go blowing by this. We're dealing with the Holy inspired Word of God here.

Jesus Christ demanded that the phrase "THE LORD IS NEAR" be taken literally as a declaration of the end.


"See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'THE TIME IS NEAR.' Do not go after them (NASB - Luke 21:8)


All of the apostles make this precise declaration before the close of THEIR generation. They could not err -- it is time for futurists to start believing the bible.

They were working within the timeframe that Jesus Christ was to return before the end of their generation to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple as Jesus promised them to their faces (Matthew 24:33-34/Matt 23:36). They knew how to tell time. Why don't futurists?

God bless,
GW

How do you know that Jesus was speaking just to his disciples?

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by GW


"See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'THE TIME IS NEAR.' Do not go after them (NASB - Luke 21:8)

That was Jesus warning us about people saying he had returned when he hadn't yet! Surely you can see this GW! I will warn you--don't believe that Jesus has returned yet!

-- it is time for futurists to start believing the bible.

Are you saying futurists don't believe the Bible? Because if you are, you are out of line.

 

[Shaggy]

it is time for futurists to start believing the bible.

Darn, with your intelligence I was hoping you wouldn't stoop to saying nonsense like this, obviously we believe, we just interpret it different than you!

Maintain man, if we are to get anything out of this!

 

[Auntie]

GW, the problem is your theories won't stand the test of time. As more prophecy continues to be fullfilled, you will ultimately be forced to question your doctrine. I truely hope you "see the light", and very soon, as we truely are in the last days NOW. GW, as a Christian, you are commanded to look for the return of our Lord. I'm sorry you have adhered to a false doctrine, which has robbed you of looking for the glorious return of our Savior. I will pray for you.

Good night all. It is late at my house.

 

[Kelier]

Good night Auntie!

 

[GW]

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
I truely hope you "see the light", and very soon, as we truely are in the last days NOW.

Auntie,

We know exactly when the last days were. The scriptures have not left us in the dark on this crucial topic. The apostles claimed THEY were the last days generation -- They explicitly state so:


James 5:3,8
Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. IT IS IN THE LAST DAYS THAT YOU HAVE STORED UP your treasure!...for the coming of the Lord is near.

Hebrews 1:1-2
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these LAST DAYS has spoken to us in His Son

Acts 2:15-17
"For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; BUT THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN OF THROUGH THE PROPHET JOEL: AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for OUR instruction, UPON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE AGES HAVE COME

..."upon whom the ends of the ages HAVE COME."


Christ's richest blessings be upon you.

G'night,
GW

 

[armothe]

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um

That was Jesus warning us about people saying he had returned when he hadn't yet! Surely you can see this GW! I will warn you--don't believe that Jesus has returned yet!

Auntie, Auntie...please, read this passage again. It does not say what you stated.

"See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'THE TIME IS NEAR.' Do not go after them (NASB - Luke 21:8)

Jesus, explicitly states to HIS DISCIPLES that many will come pretending to be HIM and that the time is NEAR.

Please! where does it state the Jesus warns all readers of the Bible to be on guard against those in the future that say He has already come.

Auntie, as a fellow Christian I am imploring you to be more dilligent when quoting and interpreting scripture.
I hope your misinterpretation wasn't intentional.

-A

 

[Pericles]

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
GW, the problem is your theories won't stand the test of time. As more prophecy continues to be fullfilled, you will ultimately be forced to question your doctrine. I truely hope you "see the light", and very soon, as we truely are in the last days NOW. GW, as a Christian, you are commanded to look for the return of our Lord. I'm sorry you have adhered to a false doctrine, which has robbed you of looking for the glorious return of our Savior. I will pray for you.

Good night all. It is late at my house.

The problem with your futurist theories, is that time works against you. How many times will you be able to say "this is the last generation"? How many thousands of years will have to pass before you realize you are wrong? How many times will you make Christianity look bad in the eyes of non-believers? In 10,000 years from now futurism will be all gone and forgotten. Our Savior already returned...that is a GOOD thing...not a bad thing.