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Preterism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mandy, May 23, 2002.

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  1. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7


    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

    Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


    What exactly is your interpretation of these verses? Particularly the verse in bold. There is still death, sorrow, tears and pain.
     
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  2. Shaggy

    Shaggy Member

    150
    +0
    These times are probably more filled with sin than any other time in the worlds history!

    How can it be that anyone can think we are living in the Garden of Eden now? Isn't it obvious Christ hasn't returned yet?

    Just look at the world, can you not see signs of things written in John and Revelation seeming to be coming to pass?

    I don't understand I guess.
     
  3. Shaggy

    Shaggy Member

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    Do Preterists believe the time is at hand?

    Gods timeframe is different than ours, I believe the time is at hand now, soon, maybe even in our lifetime we will see the return of God.
     
  4. Shaggy

    Shaggy Member

    150
    +0
    Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    How can you argue with this? The world is STILL full of pain and sorrow! More so than ever before.
     
  5. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

    428
    +1
    Christian
    Hello Mandy, thank you for participating :)

    I will provide two answers to your questions. Again, I have written a detailed article on the meaning of Heavens, Earth and Sea in Revelation 21. You can read this article here There is no evidence that Revelation 21:1 and subsequent verses talks about the physical heavens and earth. Ironically, in Isaiah 51:14, God himself says that the establishment of Jerusalem is the establishment of Heaven and Earth..believe that...symbolic language used in the Bible... :)

    “I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’” Unless God created two sets of heavens and earth, I would like you to explain this passage...

    The second point, about pain and suffering, I believe that has been accomplished by Christ 2,000 years ago. A physical expectation of your quotes is greatly misguided. In fact, I would like to ask you...do you think that God will actualy have physical hands and will go around to physically wipe people's tears away? If so, why not? That's what the verse says right?
     
  6. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    So the answer then is to spiritualize Revelation?
     
  7. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

    428
    +1
    Christian
    To be fair, let's try to go "back and forth" I believe I answered quite a few of your questions, and you left quite a few of mine unanswered :)
     
  8. Shaggy

    Shaggy Member

    150
    +0
    "Shadow of my hand" man! C'mon give us something to chew on!
     
  9. Shaggy

    Shaggy Member

    150
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    [Revelation 22:2]In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

    Is this what you are talking about? Could it not be worded as symbolism so that ALL peoples may understand it's meaning?
    I believe it is quite obvious what it is saying.
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    Brother Shaggy,

    Pause a minute and re-read what you just said. Do you really know your history well enough to say this? I don't believe you do, because you are not at all correct here. The ancient world in which Jesus lived was infinitely more wicked than today, and only Israel had an enlightened system of justice among all other nations that were entirely shut off from the Covenant.

    Furthermore, if you just do a quick comparison of the justice system in the Christianized West of today and compare that to the Asian countries you will see an enormous difference. What has made the difference in the way countries have progressed? Christianity. Everywhere the Kingdom of God has spread and become entrenched, the ice melts, people are set free, and a great many barbarisms are destroyed/made obsolete as Christian representation and leadership takes over. This is what has happened over the course of 20 centuries and it is what will continue to happen provided evangelicals stop heading for the hills and abdicating their Kingdom responsibilities.

    At the time of Christ only a tiny geographic region had any knowledge of God's covenant. That land of Israel is smaller than Ohio. The rest of the planet was darkened. Since the Messianic Covenant began, the gospel of the Kingdom has spread and taken root and changed whole civilizations. For goodness sakes, the leader of the free world is an Evangelical Christian!

    Finally, what was the greatest crime that could ever be committed by any generation in history? Clearly to kill God incarnate was the greatest crime ever committed in history. That action required the greatest judgment upon that generation (1 Thes 2:14-16; Matt 23:32-38).


    Jerusalem fell, the Temple was destroyed, and Israel entered its eternal New Covenant Age. The Parousia has happened. The Kingdom of God came right on time (Mark 1:14-15).

    Revelation was a vision that was for St. John and his contemporaries. All the events contained therein were to come to pass shortly in their generation (Rev 1:1; 1:3; 22:6-7; 22:10-11; 3:1-3; Matthew 24:33-34). And the book of Revelation is a vision with much symbolism.

    God bless, brother. Be of good cheer, Christ has overcome the world.

    GW
     
  11. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    In that article, it was stated: "The simple fact that John presents the sea as being separate from earth should be our first clue that John is not talking about the physical seas and oceans that cover plant Earth. The phrase “the first earth passed away” should be enough to encompass all seas and oceans."

    In Rev 21, John saw a new heaven and earth, apparently there will not be a sea.

    There are many verses that say that heaven and earth will indeed pass away and/or there will be a new heaven and earth.
    Matt 24:35
    Isaiah 65:17
    Isaiah 66:22

    The verse I quoted about how God will wipe away there tears doesn't mention hands. Yes ultimately Jesus did accomplish victory over these things, yet they still exist. Right now we can say "Oh Death where is thy sting" because we have been redeemed and will have eternal life, yet there is still physical death. So these things still exist and according to Rev 21, there will come a time when they no longer will.
     
  12. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7


    Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come


    This hasn't happened yet.
     
  13. Shaggy

    Shaggy Member

    150
    +0
    Well if Christ has overcome the world and already returned, and there was more sin back then, then why is there still:
    Satanism (in full strength I might add)
    Homosexuality(same gender marriages!)
    Pedophilism
    Open and culturally condoned Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
    Buddism
    Hinduism
    Taoism
    Pollution
    Pain
    Suffering
    Global persecution of the most recognized church in history, one I might add is a beacon for a good majority of the world
    War and rumors of War
    Terrorism
    The mass misinterpretation of Biblical scripture

    The list goes on....

    If Christ has already overcome the world, why is it in a shambles? If he has already overcame, boy we sure need him to overcome again!

    I am of good cheer! I know my Lord is coming for me!

    God Bless you!!
     
  14. Shaggy

    Shaggy Member

    150
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    Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come

    Look at the world..could this have possibly happened yet?
    No way!
     
  15. Shaggy

    Shaggy Member

    150
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    A Great crime? Yes but God returned in the flesh so that the world may have salvation, this was necessary and planned by God, destined to take place, it did not only happen by the free will of men, but as a divinely prepared plan for mans salvation.

    I believe there are far greater sins being committed today solely by the hands and minds of free willed men.
     
  16. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
    Christian
    Married
    #1- Somehow get Christians to stop looking for Christ's return.

    #2- Somehow get Christians to stop believing Satan is seeking whom he may devour.

    #3- hmmm....#1 & #2 are adequate to accomplish all of Satan's schemes. End of Top Ten List.
     
  17. Shaggy

    Shaggy Member

    150
    +0
    Good list Auntie!
     
  18. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
    Christian
    Married
    Thanks!:)
     
  19. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    GW'S CLIFF'S NOTES COMMENTARY*

    We notice that Hebrews 12:18-29 is a passage that talks about the shaking and removal of heavens and earth. Right? In that passage the Old that is removed is the Old Covenant. The New that remains is the New Covenant Kingdom. Pretty straightforward.

    This idea is repeated by Jesus who, discussing the destruction of Temple Judaism in Mark 13, says: "heaven and eartth will pass away; but MY WORDS will never pass away." Jesus is thus contrasting the New Covenant Universe based on HIS WORDS with the Old Covenant Universe based on the Mosaic Temple system -- Moses' words.


    GW'S CLIFF'S NOTES COMMENTARY*

    Who is the "bride adorned for her husband"? It is the bride of Christ, The Church. This bride is the exact same bride of Revelation 19:7-8, right? It's also the same bride of Rev. 21:7-8, right? So we recall that the Church was being prepared to be the lamb's wife in 2 Cor 11:2 and Eph 5:25-32. So here in Revelation 21:2 and Rev 19:7-8 the Church is depicted as Christ's wife and a NEW Jerusalem that is a heavenly one. Paul had taught clearly that this NEW Jerusalem is the New Covenant Nation of God (see: Gal 4:22-31), contrasting it to the Old Covenant and its earthly Jerusalem. Paul taught we have already come into New Jerusalem in Hebrew 12:22-24.


    GW'S CLIFF'S NOTES COMMENTARY*

    2 Corinthians 6:16
    For you are the temple of the living God; AS GOD SAITH: I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

    Matthew 1:23
    ...they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    Don't those passages seem awfully familiar to one another? Like, exactly the same?



    GW'S CLIFF'S NOTES COMMENTARY*

    First, compare 21:4 to the martyrs who came out of the great tribulation and are in heaven in Revelation 7:13-17. Notice that they are the same descriptions of relief? There's part of the answer.

    Next, compare Rev 7:16-17 to John 4:14 and John 6:33-35. Notice they are the same? Exactly the same. There's part of the answer.

    Finally, read the book of LAMENTS in the Old Testament (i.e., Lamentations) and give praise to our God that the Church has not one time had to suffer God's harsh desolating judgments! You have never had to boil any children and eat them to survive God's harsh judgments as the jews did in Lamentations 4:10-11 -- God promised such horrors would come upon them due to disobedience against God's Covenant (see Jeremiah 19:7-9 and Deut 28:53-58). That's the final part of your answer.

    (1) Heaven.
    (2) The Bread and Water of Life.
    (3) No more Covenant death and desolations by God against his Covenanted people!


    Can I get an AMEN?
     
  20. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    I disagree with those interpretations, to me that is simply spiritualizing away those passages. Also what about 2 Peter 3:10? What about Matt 24:14? The gospel wasn't preached to all nations by 70AD, and even now there are some that have not heard it.
    And why is there still death and sorrow and tears, when Rev 21 says those things will be no more?

    Do preterists believe that Jesus came again literally around 70AD?
     
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