Preterism

[armothe]

Mandy, RKF,

I'm assuming you believe other than what Paul stated in Romans? Was Paul wrong? How do you explain his statement to the Romans?

-A

 

[Mandy]

Within the first generation the church had become an established world-wide fact, however it was the known world at that time. The verses you mentioned are not a fulfillment of Mathew 24:14.
You have to take into consideration context and the fulness of the Gentiles coming in.



Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Don't confuse this Scripture with Luke 21:24

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
These are two different things. One is before the Tribulation and one is during.

Aren't Gentiles still being saved? Aren't you a gentile?

 

[GW]

"FULLNESS" OF THE GENTLES: A DEFINITION

The "FULNESS" of the gentiles is incorrectly translated "full number" in a couple translations, reflecting a futurist slant and leading many bible readers to flawed conclusions. The text doesn't say "number" at all.

The "fullness of the gentiles" (also: "fulness of the nations") can be understood as the same "FULNESS" as used in its other N.T. citations such as in John 1:16, Eph 3:19, and Col 1:19 (Greek = "pleroma"). This fulness, properly understood, is the fulness that came to the gentiles in the first century by being grafted into the pure Olive Tree of true Israel -- that is, the gentiles as a body were becoming partakers in the "pleroma" ("fulness") of the Abrahamic/Christic blessing. They were granted full sonship and inheritance as described in Ephesians chapter 3:1-21. This FULNESS, "pleroma", as in John 1:16, came to the gentiles via Paul's ministry (Acts 26:17-19; Rom 15:16; Eph 3:1-21). By reading the Eph 3:1-21 account in total we get the broad scope of Paul's work to deliver the full inheritance and riches to the gentiles via his ministry "that they might be filled with ALL THE PLEROMA ("fulness") of God" -- Eph 3:19.

GW

 

[Shaggy]

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
This hasn't happened yet.

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
And definitely not this!

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]: and every living soul died in the sea.

The sea is full of life still.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
The mountains are still here.

It is apparent these prophesies have NOT been fulfilled. How can you convince us they have? There is no way.

You have to believe that Christ has not returned yet.
Simple Logic dictates this.

 

[Shaggy]

Can I get a Praise the Lord?

 

[Kelier]

Praise the Lord!

 

[Pericles]

Ok, I have to conclude for Mandy & co. that they apparently think that the Bible is not an innerrant book and that it contains mistakes, especially when Paul claimed that the gospel was preached to "all nations", "all creatures under heaven" and "all world". The lack of answers is an answer in itself.

Originally posted by Mandy
Within the first generation the church had become an established world-wide fact, however it was the known world at that time. The verses you mentioned are not a fulfillment of Mathew 24:14.

Why are the verses I mentioned not a fulfillment of Matthew 24:14? It it just because you don't agree with them, or you have some biblical evidence to show that? They were about the KNOWN WORLD AT THAT TIME? Why is it that Jesus couldn't be talking about the same KNOWN WORLD AT THAT TIME in Matthew 24:14...again, that doesn't fit in your theology, so you have to adjust the Bible instead of your thinking...

 

[Kelier]

A rise in false religion, including an epidemic of persons or systems claiming to be Jesus Himself.
An unprecedented increase in the number of wars.

An unprecedented increase in natural disasters, including famines, pestilences, and earthquakes.

Unprecedented tribulation and mass martyrdom, and universal hatred of Christians.

Mass betrayal, and General Apostasy.

The Gospel shall be preached to all nations.

The Abomination of Desolation will be set up in the reconstructed Tribulation Temple.

Tribulation so great that there has been none like it before, nor none since; in fact, if the days had not been shortened, no flesh would survive.

An increase in false signs and lying wonders.

Immediately after the Tribulation of those days, there will be great atmospheric/astronomic disturbances.

Coincident with this, the "sign of the Son of Man" will appear in the heavens, and "all tribes of the earth" will see Jesus' mighty Second Advent.

Coincident with this, the saints of God will be gathered together from the four corners of the earth.

 

[GW]

Originally posted by Shaggy

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
The mountains are still here.

It is apparent these prophesies have NOT been fulfilled. How can you convince us they have? There is no way.

It is easy to convince the unbiased and logical mind that they have.

First, if in fact EVERY mountain and island flees in Revelation 16:20 then how is there a Harlot in Revelation 17:9 that sits on SEVEN MOUNTAINS?

Next, if you believe that EVERY island and mountain will flee then how could any life be sustained on the planet? Which leads to the next question...Revelation 6:12-16 says that stars of the heavens will fall to earth like a fig tree that casts her untimely figs shaken in a mighty wind! Could planet earth survive even ONE SINGLE STAR like our SUN hitting planet earth much less hundreds that fall when a fig tree casts forth untimely figs in a mighty wind? And 6:14 says heaven departs and every mountain and island is moved out of place...yet then men are seen hiding in the dens and in the rocks of mountains saying "hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne"??? What mountains are left? What people are left? What planet is left? They've already been obliterated.

I greatly look forward to your answer, because the fact is you've misunderstood the symbols of the book and you've not taken seriously John's opening statement to his 1st century Churches to whom he urgently sent the memo:


Revelation 1:1,3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS...Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.


John's vision was for the first century and was not literal in the way you are reading it. You are missing his O.T. references and are reading the book like a 21st century American instead of as a 1st century Jew.

You must come to grips with this sooner or later. You are making some fundamental errors in your reading of the Book of Revelation. Jesus promised his apostles that THEY would see all those events come to pass within their generation (Matthew 24:33-34; Matt 23:36). John agrees all throughout Revelation and even sends Christ's promise to come upon the 1st century Church of Sardis as a "Thief in the Night."

 

[Shaggy]

GW,
First lets address Rev.17:9
"Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits."

[Read Rev. 17 in it's entirity]

The mind which has wisdom possesses divinely aided spiritual understanding, which is a mind receptive of God's truth.(Rev.1:3) The clause may possibly be connected with verse 8 rather than verse 9 and may refer specifically to wisdom in understanding who the beast is. It may also refer to the following verses, the interpretationof the heads, the beast, the horns, and the Woman.

The seven heads of the beast symbolize both seven mountains and seven kings.

Since the word mountains also mean hills in Revelation 14:1.

However, seven mountains may also refer to successive world empires, since mountains are typically symbols of earthly kingdoms or empires.(see Ps. 30:7; Jer. 51:25; Dan. 2:44,45).

 

[Shaggy]

That was my bad, by previously saying literally mountains were still here. Sorry.

 

[GW]

Originally posted by Shaggy
GW,
First lets address Rev.17:9
"Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits."

I'm sure you realize that a majority of scholars see this as a reference to Ancient Rome with its famous seven hills. This is how Rome is connected to the book, along with the list of its Caesars that ruled up to the one present at the time John is writing:

The beast the Harlot rides has seven kings.

- "five have fallen"
1. Julius
2. Augustus
3. Tiberius
4. Gaius
5. Claudius

- "one is" (at the time of John)
6. Nero


- and one is yet to come to "continue a short space."
7. Galba -- who reigned for a grand total of 6 short months


So I'm very reluctant to interpret those hills as somehow NOT speaking of Ancient Rome.


Furthermore, you are arguing for 16:20 to be "EVERY literal mountain and island" passing away and not being found. This is absurd, and the passage is clearly parallel to Rev 6:14-16 which is only the 6th seal. Yet men are seeking refuge in mountains there and a great many numbers of stars like are sun have just obliterated the planet (Rev 6:13), so there simply is no story left to be told -- game over, book over.

I repeat that I believe you are not reading the book right. St. John says the book was for his times (Rev 1:1; 1:3; 22:6-7; 22:10-11; 3:1-3; 2:23-25) and there is no reason to doubt St. John who had already declared the last hour had come:

1 John 2:18-19,
Children, it is THE LAST HOUR!; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that IT IS THE LAST HOUR!

 

[Shaggy]

GW, my mountain statement earlier was a bad example as I just explained the possibility of other meanings of mountains. Either way we determine, the mountains are not a good base for argument.

Lets try these:

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:


Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Can you show me where this has already taken place?

I do applaud you, you know your bible well, lets see if we can set you in the right direction on it's true meaning and interpretation.

And people let's try to address one verse or idea at a time, or we lose focus.

 

[Shaggy]

quoted by GW1 John 2:18-19,
Children, it is THE LAST HOUR!; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that IT IS THE LAST HOUR!

GW: This is not a literal hour, The whole point is that NO ONE would know when Jesus would come back, even Jesus said no one would know the hour or the day. The disciples had no idea WHEN He would return.

 

[GW]

Hiya Shaggy:

I have started a thread on the Marks in the book of Revelation --CLICK HERE!

Finally, the meaning and interpretation of scripture comes from scripture itself which we must use to interpret scripture. It is not wise to use today's newspaper headlines to get at the meaning of things spoken by jews of the 1st century who clearly stated that THEY (not you and I), were the last days generation (Heb 1:1-2; 1 Cor 10:11; James 5:3; 1 Peter 1:20; Acts 2:15-17).

All those millions of dollars made by the Hal Lindseys, Impes, Hagees, peddling doom and gloom is nothing but tabloid journalism done by Christians. And just like the tabloids those men have amassed the big buck$$$ -- all off of the flocks of God. Sad. Time for the Church to rise up against false teachers whose track record of predictions have been 100% false for the last 4 decades.

God bless you with all power and riches in Christ Jesus,
GW
GW

 

[Shaggy]

OK GW, but if what you say is true, what is next for us, please show something that addresses these horrible times.

 

[GW]

Originally posted by Shaggy
GW: This is not a literal hour, The whole point is that NO ONE would know when Jesus would come back, even Jesus said no one would know the hour or the day. The disciples had no idea WHEN He would return.

The "last hour" means a very very short time:

John 13:1
Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

How long was this? A week at most?


Revelation 3:10
Because you kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the HOUR of testing that which is to come on the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth

How long is this 'hour'? Most say the tribulation period is between 3.5 and 7 years max.

St. John, citing the emergence of the antichrist heresy in his later ministry period, confirms the sign and claims that it was proof that the last hour had come (1 John 2:18-19). We are living way, way beyond the endtimes and beyond St. John's last hour.

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by GW
It is not wise to use today's newspaper headlines to get at the meaning of things spoken by jews of the 1st century who clearly stated that THEY (not you and I), were the last days generation
GW

GW, You interpret this literally, and yet other scriptures you say are just symbolic. You can't just pick and choose what you want to fit your doctrine.

 

[Shaggy]

Yeah and GW, I will happily engage you in your other thread but I would still like you to elaborate on my question above in this thread as it is pertinent to preterism.
Thanks

And try to be brief, show scripture, so that we may maintain a focused discussion.

 

[Kelier]

Hour:
5610 hora ho'-rah

apparently a primary word; an "hour" (literally or figuratively):--day, hour, instant, season, X short, (even-)tide, (high) time.

I find it very interesting that preterists make literal those things that were not meant to be completely literal and yet spiritualize the things that were meant to be literal.