Preterism ends now ...but futurists are not right either

[Reborn-Adopted]

Starting in chapter 17, there is a lot that sounds like it could be related to a pre-rendering of modern politics, especially if you equate it with some of the prophecy in Daniel, but what do I do with the previous 9 chapters then?

full preterists get on my nerves trying to say the mother of harlots was Jerusalem. Was Jerusalem ever compared to babylon? Yes, of course ...but Revelation is Talking about a dead Jerusalem waiting to become New Jerusalem after 70 A.D. ...and then that New Jerusalem turning into the woman riding the beast ...babylon.

Jerusalem didn't have a shipping port!!!​

Revelation 18:17-18 KJV — For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Revelation 18:19 KJV — And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Catholics had plenty:​

Does This really sound like Jerusalem to you?:

Revelation 18:11-13 KJV — And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

Physical Jerusalem was a daughter of babylon corruption ...not the mother itself.

Jeremiah 51:33 KJV — For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon is like a threshingfloor, it is time to thresh her: yet a little while, and the time of her harvest shall come.

Zechariah 2:7 KJV — Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.

was physical babylon a daughter of babylon corruption? yes​

[Isaiah 47:1,3,5-7 KJV] Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate.
[3] Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.
[5] Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms.
[6] I was wroth with my people, I have polluted mine inheritance, and given them into thine hand: thou didst shew them no mercy; upon the ancient hast thou very heavily laid thy yoke.
[7] And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it.

[Jeremiah 9:1-2 KJV] Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!
[2] Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men.

[Jeremiah 14:16-17 KJV] And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.
[17] Therefore thou shalt say this word unto them; Let mine eyes run down with tears night and day, and let them not cease: for the virgin daughter of my people is broken with a great breach, with a very grievous blow.

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Are you a futurist waiting for modern day Jews to be surrounded in The City of Jerusalem ...when they currently don't even own the Land of the whole City?

Premills love to talk about This:

[Zechariah 14:4 KJV] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

but they leave out the rest of The Chapter:

Zechariah 14:2 KJV — For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

the usa backs modern day Israel ...this is never going to happen.

Last i checked, JESUS is already The King of Earth:

[Zechariah 14:9 KJV] And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Lamentations 5:11 KJV — They ravished the women in Zion, and the maids in the cities of Judah.

Isaiah 13:16 KJV — Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

....was The Bride ravished to become the woman that rides the beast? the roman government figured out how​

[Ezekiel 23:17-22 KJV] And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.
[18] So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.
[19] Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.
[20] For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.
[21] Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.
[22] Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;

i think Jerusalem became a widow ...and then it happened again for The Blood Covenant​

[Lamentations 1:1-3 KJV] How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!
[2] She weepeth sore in the night, and her tears are on her cheeks: among all her lovers she hath none to comfort her: all her friends have dealt treacherously with her, they are become her enemies.
[3] Judah is gone into captivity because of affliction, and because of great servitude: she dwelleth among the heathen, she findeth no rest: all her persecutors overtook her between the straits.

[Revelation 17:2 KJV] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
[Revelation 17:16 KJV] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

[Jeremiah 51:7 KJV] Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

[Jeremiah 7:30 KJV] For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
[Jeremiah 7:34 KJV] Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.

[Jeremiah 25:10 KJV] Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle.

[Jeremiah 33:5 KJV] They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.

[Revelation 18:2 KJV] And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

[Jeremiah 51:37 KJV] And Babylon shall become heaps, a dwellingplace for dragons, an astonishment, and an hissing, without an inhabitant.

[Jeremiah 50:29 KJV] Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.

[Revelation 18:4 KJV] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
[Revelation 18:6 KJV] Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
[Revelation 18:7 KJV] How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

[Isaiah 47:8-9 KJV] Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:
[9] But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments.

is there still mass government run catholics today?:

[Revelation 18:8 KJV] Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

[Isaiah 47:10-11 KJV] For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.
[11] Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.

[Isaiah 47:12 KJV] Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail.
[Isaiah 47:15 KJV] Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee.

[Revelation 18:11 KJV] And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

[Revelation 18:17-19 KJV] For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
[18] And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
[19] And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

There is THE WAY to be Delivered out of babylon:

[Micah 4:9 KJV] Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.
[Micah 4:10 KJV] Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Flee from the desolation of abomination ...the great falling away ...catholics​

[Jeremiah 51:6 KJV] Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.

[2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 KJV] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

"catholic" means "universal" ...unify. if you know anything about constantine, unity is all he cared about.​

[Genesis 11:4 KJV] And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

all i see is people being seduced into using satan's artifical way. Babylon fornication. free will, sin nature, imputed Righteousness, sin-repent cycle, and unlimited forgiveness is getting in bed with her. adultery.

it's getting in bed with The Dead Advocate. The LORD Is LIVING!!! A Living LORD doesn't continue to Forgive your new sins.

 

[David Kent]

You are trying to cut catholics out of Revelation ...there is just no way. they started the trinity nonsense. are you pretending they didn't murder people for over a thousand years because they didn't bow to them? are you pretending they didn't sell the ability to sin?

the introduction of the trinity was the abomination of desolation. a church for a son of perdition that is using satan's designed Narrow Way. many heard him say your old self doesn't have to die so you gladly received the mark of the beast. their way is the bottomless pit ...no Relationship Foundation.

Matthew 24:15 KJV — When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 KJV — Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This proves The Great Commission was modified by man to try to make a Trinity happen. JESUS Is THE HOLY SPIRIT, stop the madness.

[Acts 2:38 KJV] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 24:47-48 KJV — And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.

Why Word It like This when the other Two Scriptures don't?:
[Matthew 28:19 KJV] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Doesn't sound like The HOLY SPIRIT Is Its Own Person to me:
[John 16:13 KJV] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

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the artificial father (dragon) had 7 heads (before the beast) before he was forced to use religion:

[Revelation 12:3 KJV] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12:13 KJV — And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

those heads could have been roman emperors or the 7 king herods before and during 70 A.D. but now that satan has to work within the church the beast has 7 heads ...7 churches that babylon sits on.

[Isaiah 4:1 KJV] And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.​

[Lamentations 1:10-11 KJV] The adversary hath spread out his hand upon all her pleasant things: for she hath seen that the heathen entered into her sanctuary, whom thou didst command that they should not enter into thy congregation.
[11] All her people sigh, they seek bread; they have given their pleasant things for meat to relieve the soul: see, O LORD, and consider; for I am become vile.

we already knew satan dwells in one of the 7 churches:

[Revelation 2:13 KJV] I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

the false church tries to explain this Verse away by saying It is about an altar to Zeus at Pergamum.

All the churches were in pagan land ...asia minor ...what nonsense ...they all had false idols in their towns.

[1 Corinthians 5:12 ESV] For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?

We are Told to Overcome the 7 Churches, Here is one Example of the Seven Times He Told us (Each Letter to a Church):

[Revelation 3:5 KJV] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Why Tell Philadelphia to Overcome when they had a good Report Card?
Revelation 3:12 KJV — Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Lamentations 4:12-14 KJV — The kings of the earth, and all the inhabitants of the world, would not have believed that the adversary and the enemy should have entered into the gates of Jerusalem. For the sins of her prophets, and the iniquities of her priests, that have shed the blood of the just in the midst of her, They have wandered as blind men in the streets, they have polluted themselves with blood, so that men could not touch their garments.

Jeremiah 7:30 KJV — For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.

satan's church is food for fallen angels:

Jeremiah 7:33-34 KJV — And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away. Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.

Revelation 19:17 KJV — And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Revelation 19:21 KJV — And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 18:23 KJV — And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

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it was a wh0r3 of babylon because it was government run religion. the worldly government was fine with the false church as long as they offered a way into The Kingdom with unlimited forgiveness.

catholics, protestants, and hebrew roots have something in common ...they all designed their own Narrow Way to get into New Jerusalem.

John 10:1 KJV — Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Jeremiah 3:17 KJV — At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

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Full Preterists can't answer what satan being loosed after The Thousand Years is. Scripture Says he had to be loosed ...GOD doesn't have to do anything. satan was loosed to start a new dead church ...protestantism.

I am not trying to cut Catholics out of Revelation, indeed the great tribulation in Revelation is mainly by Rome Pagan and Papal. But if is also in many other lands as well. As Jesus said
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

In the World we would have tribulation. There are many parts of the world where Christian are suffering tribulation.

But the Abomination of Desolation was on the Jews and Jerusalem, "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know its desolation is near."

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

I am not trying to cut Catholics out of Revelation, indeed the great tribulation in Revelation is mainly by Rome Pagan and Papal. But if is also in many other lands as well. As Jesus said
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

In the World we would have tribulation. There are many parts of the world where Christian are suffering tribulation.

But the Abomination of Desolation was on the Jews and Jerusalem, "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know its desolation is near."

"All the world" was not literal ...the Roman empire was not the literal whole world ...just look at a map of the boundaries.

Luke 2:1 KJV — And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Acts 11:28-29 KJV — And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:

the nonsense of The End being after The Gospel is preached to the literal-physical world is nonsense.

Matthew 24:13-14 KJV — But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 10:23 KJV — But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Who do you think came to an end?

1 Corinthians 10:11 KJV — Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Ethiopia is where the queen of Sheba is from ...do you realize how close Ethiopia is to Israel?

[Luke 11:31 KJV] The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Was there a famine in North America at the time? Scripture does not mean the whole globe.

Genesis 41:56 KJV — And the famine was over all the face of the earth: And Joseph opened all the storehouses, and sold unto the Egyptians; and the famine waxed sore in the land of Egypt.

 

[David Kent]

"All the world" was not literal ...the Roman empire was not the literal whole world ...just look at a map of the boundaries.

Luke 2:1 KJV — And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Acts 11:28-29 KJV — And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:

the nonsense of The End being after The Gospel is preached to the literal-physical world is nonsense.

Matthew 24:13-14 KJV — But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 10:23 KJV — But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Who do you think came to an end?

1 Corinthians 10:11 KJV — Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Ethiopia is where the queen of Sheba is from ...do you realize how close Ethiopia is to Israel?

[Luke 11:31 KJV] The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Was there a famine in North America at the time? Scripture does not mean the whole globe.

Genesis 41:56 KJV — And the famine was over all the face of the earth: And Joseph opened all the storehouses, and sold unto the Egyptians; and the famine waxed sore in the land of Egypt.

I know that but Christians are still suffering tribulation all through the world, in some countries they are still being by Romanists.

So I agree that it has been carried on mainly by Rome, but also N Korea, China, many Arab countries. The Inquisition was not only in the area covered by Roman empire, but through most of the world. Inquisitors were even appointed for Tartary, (China) and the Americas. There are photos of victims of the inquisition in Mexico who were walled up alive, the skeletons being exhibited in the museum at Mexico city. The city of the Seven Hills by Henry Grattan Guinness c1892 pp158, 300p00-302

John says
Rev 1:9. I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I consider that to be addressed to all Believers who are suffering tribulation.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

[Revelation 20:9 KJV] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

[Psalm 109:3 KJV] They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.

[Revelation 20:8 KJV] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

[Psalm 109:5 KJV] And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.

[Psalm 109:6 KJV] Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

[Revelation 13:16 KJV] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

[Psalm 109:7 KJV] When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

a prayer from a son of perdition is separation in The Relationship with GOD. if your old self isn't on a Cross, then GOD doesn't hear your prayers.

the false church (babylon?) has a hard time like Adam plowing the fields:​

[Psalm 109:8 KJV] Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
[Psalm 109:9 KJV] Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
[Psalm 109:10 KJV] Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
[Psalm 109:14 KJV] Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.

[Psalm 109:15 KJV] Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.

[Revelation 14:10 KJV] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

[Psalm 109:18 KJV] As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.
[Psalm 109:29 KJV] Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.

delusion, curse

They had mortality because they couldn't have Eternal LIFE until He Returned. What is your excuse?

2 Corinthians 5:1-4 KJV — For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

you can't FOLLOW CHRIST if your old self is still alive. Those in The NT had to fight their flesh until He Returned ...you claim you still have to do that ...because you are likely a premill son of perdition headed for a Final Judgment that you could have avoided ...but no, you loved satan's free will too much.

everyone claims they have done This:

Romans 6:4-8 KJV — Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

...but their defense of free will shows they have not.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

If Isaiah 65 is New Jerusalem for The Resurrection of The Just ...how do they have offspring? The point being, New Jerusalem is right now.​

Isaiah 65:23 KJV — They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

We already know GOD Ended the offspring of babylon being in The Relationship. So are you offspring of New Jerusalem?​

Isaiah 65:25 KJV — The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 65:17 KJV — For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1-2 KJV — And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

If you are Adopted, there is no more sea ...you refuse the false church.

Revelation 21:23 KJV — And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The chance of a Relationship with GOD ends for those using satan's modified narrow way:

Revelation 20:11 KJV — And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

We know Heaven and Earth for Jews was The Mosaic Relationship/Testament. Rev 20 is those claiming to be on The Blood Covenant ...but are not.

Matthew 5:18 KJV — For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This isn't about The Afterlife ...we don't need shining people there ...we need them right now:

Matthew 13:41-43 KJV — The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

saying CHRIST Fulfilled your Righteousness in 70 A.D. is imputed Righteousness. and imputed righteousness is a lie the serpent sold Eve.​

satan's version of the Narrow Way claims your old self doesn't have to die ...it says The Door to it doesn't have to be Sealed Shut. imputed Righteousness claims an open Door to future sins is covered. keeping your old self alive is a problem because you can't Follow CHRIST.

[Revelation 22:15 KJV] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Your acts are not Righteous until there is no way for them to become unrighteous. You have to Remain on The Foundation.

Ezekiel 18:24 KJV — But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

1 John 3:7 KJV — Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Mosaic Law ended for Christians before 70 A.D.:

Romans 7:4 KJV — Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Full Preterists say only Jews were Saved between The Cross until JESUS Returned because they need Jews to be Saved via The Law of sin and death ...to explain The Book of Revelation. they want The New Covenant to only start in 70 A.D.

Christians were not Saved until He Returned, but Jews were not Saved by The Law. it doesn't make any sense for Rev to be Written to Jews. They were not going to listen to a Christian anyways.



a Full Preterist said this to me:

"2 testaments / wills cannot coexist. The OT will was a legally binding covenant between God and Israel that passed away in 70 AD. The New Testament /Covenant began at that time and not one moment before."

do you have any idea how confused this statement is?

First, a Testament is not a will, It's more like what happens in a Court Room.

Second, there is no such rule in Scripture that says Testaments cannot coexist.

Third, Christians were not under The Law in the period between The Cross and 70 A.D.

Hebrews 9:15-17 KJV — And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Full Preterist:

The Testator did NOT establish the New Covenant/will until 70 AD , AFTER He fulfilled all things OLD. The Hebrew saints had the EARNEST but did not receive the INHERITANCE, until Jesus CAME. When did Jesus COME? AFTER He fulfilled all things, every jot and tittle of the MOSAIC covenant AND destroyed His enemies!

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you,
Till heaven and earth pass,
one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,
till all be fulfilled.

this is how they read That: "until your Law of Salvation is destroyed, every aspect of The Law of Salvation will continue until I Return to destroy It."

It's until they Used CHRIST to Fulfill The Law for themselves ...they Joined The Blood Covenant.

[Romans 8:4 KJV] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

they think Inheritance had to come at the same time as The Blood Covenant Starting.

Full Preterist:

when would the old pass away and the new begin? The author to the Hebrew saints KNEW! The Apostles KNEW. The firstfruit saints KNEW. Why don’t you KNOW?

Heb. 10: 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive THE PROMISE.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall COME will COME , and WILL NOT TARRY.

Matt. 24: 29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all THE TRIBES of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man COMING in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This Happened before 70 A.D.:
Hebrews 9:24 KJV — For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Christians didn't get Inheritance until He Returned ...but there was an Active New Covenant Beforehand.

Heaven and Earth passed away individually for Christians:
Romans 7:4 KJV — Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Faith is Loyalty. Once you could be Loyal to CHRIST ...The Law was dead to you:
Galatians 3:24-26 KJV — Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Do you think the Christians in Asia minor cared about the Physical Temple falling?

Full Preterist:

The law of Moses was completely fulfilled in 70 AD by Jesus, the Christ! He made ALL THINGS NEW and His servants serve Him who sits on the throne! We SEE His Face. His name is written in our foreheads. We reign forever.

your house of cards has fallen. if Christians were not under The Law, you don't have a Revelation Written to Jews anymore.

your whole con is that This Book somehow made it down from Asia minor in time before 70 A.D. as if everyone got to read It ...including Jews ..."oh boy, i better start looking into this Christianity thing as New Jerusalem is coming" ...good grief

your trick is to claim you can only have Mosaic Testament while there is a Temple standing and that it is impossible to have The New Covenant until Inheritance.

If you were a Christian Married to The New Covenant ...did it matter if The Temple was still standing?

JESUS was not Talking about a Physical Temple in His Sermon on The Mount (Matthew 5:18) ...GOD didn't even want a Physical Temple. JESUS was simply Telling them that they couldn't stop upholding The Law until they Joined The New Covenant.

Full Preterist:

Were there rebellious Israelites married to God under the Old heaven and earth Covenant?

Yes, didn't mean they were Saved.

Are there any rebellious men in the New heaven and earth Covenant through Jesus?

It's not Called that. We have a Blood Covenant...

Was JESUS here to let them continue in The Old Covenant after Him ...or is It in The NT because It's hoping they would become Christians?

so heaven and earth passed away before 70 AD, all was fulfilled before 70 AD,and every jot and tittle of the law of Moses ceased before 70 AD?

Hebrews 9:15-17 KJV — And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

They had to uphold every Jot and Tittle ...you make It out to be something that it isn't.

so the Hebrew saints received “THE PROMISE” before heaven and earth passed away, before all was fulfilled, before Jesus came?
Then why did the author promise this?
Heb. 8: 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is READY to vanish away.
Heb. 10: 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

The Promise is Inheritance, That wasn't a requirement to be on The Blood Covenant.
It was ready to vanish away ...so? You either became a Christian ...or you didn't.

The Promise was a NEW heaven and a NEW earth. No more death. No more curse. No more pain, suffering. No more unrighteousness in His holy City, nation, kingdom!

The Promise was being a New Creation:
Isaiah 65:15 KJV — And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

A NEW creation in a NEW heaven and earth. The OLD Covenant was passing away in that generation. God made ALL THINGS NEW through Jesus.

you keep trying to make The Blood Covenant the same as His Return. The Return has nothing to do with Covenants.
JESUS Fulfilled The Law of sin and death when being a Dead Testator. You could then become Christian under Blood. You didn't Inherit until He Returned.

You know The Sermon on The Mount means all pertaining to The First Testament needs to be Fulfilled. He was Explaining How He was Replacing The Law.

Romans 8:2 KJV — For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[Romans 8:4 KJV] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 10:4-5 KJV — For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Galatians 3:16 KJV — Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The Law didn't have The Covenant of Abraham's Seed (CHRIST):

Galatians 3:17 KJV — And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Galatians 3:18-19 KJV For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

He didn't Say wait until 70 A.D.:
Luke 24:27 KJV — And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
[Luke 24:44-47 KJV] And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
[46] And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
[47] And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

JESUS Fulfilled The Mosaic Relationship so that Heart Law would be Possible:

Matthew 22:40 KJV — On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

[Romans 8:4 KJV] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

They were in a weird state before He Returned ...but they were still under The Blood Covenant and not The Law:

Galatians 5:16-18 KJV — This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

The Law is only the Knowledge of sin and can't Save you. it's like an atheist claiming they read The OT so they are Saved now.:

Romans 3:20-21 KJV — Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

side note: "witnessed by the law and the prophets;" ...Moses and Elijah at The Transfiguration?

Did they have to wait until He Returned to Worship GOD?

John 4:23-24 KJV — But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jesus fulfilled ALL THINGS before the New heaven and earth Covenant began. It’s all over the scriptures, but you do not believe Him!
Not some, not most, ALL things!

which group of all things are you talking about?

Which group ? ALL THINGS . What part of ALL do you not understand? ALL of Revelation was FULFILLED as it is written to whom it was written!

oh, you want It to be all things of all things groups
He didn't Say I'm Coming with a Blood Covenant to end The Law. What would be the point? The Law wasn't a Covenant.

JESUS Said He wasn't going to destroy It ...It vanished away ...a physical Temple falling was not the end of The Law. They couldn't uphold It anymore ...but that wasn't the purpose of The Judgment on The City.

Jesus said He would FULFILL the Law of Moses before it passed away. When did Jesus fulfill the Feast Days which were COMMANDED for Israel under the OLD COVENANT Law of Moses?

The Feasts were a shadow of what they could have had if they Accepted JESUS.

Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle of the Law of Moses BEFORE it passed away. When were the LAST FEASTS fulfilled?
Have you not read..... of the trumpets, the Atonement, and the TABERNACLE in Revelation? The Jubilee?

Show me Scripture of a Feast needing Fulfilled.

Do you have no understanding of the Law of Moses and the FEASTS God commanded them to keep? How can you possibly understand WHEN Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle of the law of Moses?

Amos 5:21 KJV — I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

there was no reason to Fulfill a shadow that they never were going to Enter.

the false church needs Christians replacing Jews. they need The Blood Covenant to be replacing/destroying a Jewish Salvation Covenant that doesn't exist. GOD Gave them a conditional Covenant for Blessings and Prosperity ...not Salvation.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

The Law wasn't a Covenant ...It was avoiding a curse.

Deuteronomy 27:4-5 KJV — Therefore it shall be when ye be gone over Jordan, that ye shall set up these stones, which I command you this day, in mount Ebal, and thou shalt plaister them with plaister. And there shalt thou build an altar unto the LORD thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up any iron tool upon them.

Deuteronomy 27:26 KJV — Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Joshua 8:31-32 KJV — As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings. And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.

Joshua 8:34-35 KJV — And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law. There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua read not before all the congregation of Israel, with the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that were conversant among them.

Galatians 3:10-11 KJV — For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Heaven and Earth passed as soon as you got on The Blood Covenant. You didn't have to wait for JESUS to Return:

Galatians 3:13-14 KJV — Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

GOD Made a Covenant with Noah to not wipe us all out. That's not Salvation.

GOD had a conditional Covenant with Moses ...but it was for Prosperity/Blessings ...not Salvation:

Exodus 19:5 KJV — Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Genesis 15:18 KJV — In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Acts 13:39 KJV — And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Galatians 3:16 KJV — Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:19 KJV — Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Galatians 3:29 KJV — And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Was there a Covenant of Salvation Given to the seed of Abraham? Jews can claim the land ...but what Covenant of Salvation do people think they have?

Christians didn't replace Jews. Jews never had a Covenant of Salvation. If you were a Jew and CHRIST Returned, you either Joined The Blood Covenant or you didn't even have the chance of SALVATION.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

Full Preterist

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I COME QUICKLY; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I COME QUICKLY.
“Quickly”
◄ 5035. tachu
Strong's Concordance
tachu: quickly
Original Word: ταχύ
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: tachu
Phonetic Spelling: (takh-oo')
Definition: quickly
Usage: quickly, speedily.

He did Come Quickly. He came with Inheritance for those in The Blood Covenant. Jews had a shot at It ...but rejected It. Jews wanted physical prosperity ...what did 70 A.D. have anything to do with those in Asia minor? They were already dead to The Law.

Jesus did this! REPENT for DENYING He did!
1 Cor. 15: 24-28
Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him.
And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
The Amplified version describes “ all in all” as
“manifesting His glory without any opposition, the supreme indwelling and controlling factor of life.”

JESUS Handed The Physical Kingdom to THE FATHER. Still doesn't mean He destroyed a Covenant of Salvation.

Where did anyone say Jesus destroyed a covenant of salvation?

you say it about 50 times a day misinterpreting This:
Matthew 5:18 KJV — For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

According to that Scripture when would the law of Moses pass away? What did Jesus promise His Israelite Disciples when He said that?

He Promised them a Covenant with Salvation. The Law passed away for them when doing so. JESUS Said This ...deal with It:

[Matthew 5:17 KJV] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

[Galatians 3:23 KJV] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

The Law vanished away on its own. Still was never about Salvation.

How righteous were the Pharisees?
Matt. 23: 29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

um, yeah, we have to be more Righteous than them ...but ohh, you don't have to worry about that with your imputed Righteousness.

You don’t seem to understand FLESH vs. SPIRIT. The old Covenant with Adam was flesh, sin, cursed, and DEATH. The New Covenant with Jesus is SPIRIT, righteousness, blessings, and LIFE.

Covenant with Adam? lol

You don’t believe God formed Adam, planted Adam in His kingdom, gave him His law, and anointed him to SERVE in His kingdom through His SPIRIT?
You do know that Adam DIED the day he sinned and brought DEATH to all men, don’t you?

He did "Form" Adam, the first priest capable of Knowing GOD. Adam chose the serpent's narrow way so he got Kicked out of The Relationship ...no Law or Covenant.

Romans 5:13 KJV — (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

you think God had no law before Israel?
Rom. 5: 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of Him that was to come.

That's Saying there were other people during Adam.

Adam most certainly did have God’s Law. No one else was in the garden to hear it.
Gen. 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Romans 5:13 KJV — (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

the false church tries to make Adam have Law ...to make Law be a Covenant.

When GOD Gives Law or Covenants ...He uses the Words "Law" or "Covenant".

The Law of Moses did not save the Israelites from sin and death but that law, every jot and tittle of it, was in effect UNTIL what happened, according to the PROMISE of Jesus?

Until The Testator Died.
The First Testament was Fulfilled with CHRIST'S Death ...still wasn't Salvation.

Heaven and Earth together as a phrase, for a Jew, was Mount Gerizim (Blessings) and Mount Ebal (curses). Hebrew means to Cross Over. Their Journey included curses if they didn't do The Law ...but Blessings if they Followed GOD. The Heaven and Earth Journey was Fulfilled when The Testator Died. You could now have Eternal LIFE if you Joined The Blood Covenant and waited for His Return.

Jacob's Well is in Shechem, guess what else is There? Mt. Gerizim and Mt. Ebal. Heaven and Earth
[John 4:21 KJV] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
[John 4:23 KJV] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

The first testament was NOT fulfilled at His death. The legal terms of the Law of Moses had not yet been fulfilled! The Feast of Pentecost was fulfilled 50 days AFTER THE CROSS and there were still 3 more feasts to fulfill! THEN there was a Great Jubilee!
The CONDITIONS of the LAW passing away :
1) UNTIL heaven and earth pass away
2)UNTIL all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

i already told you The Feasts died ...JESUS didn't Come back to Fulfill Feasts of unsaved people.

You’ll never receive the inheritance in your rebellion! Claiming that Jesus did not fulfill ALL THINGS is completely blasphemous!

The First Testament could use Blood because The Testator eventually Died to Fulfill It. They still didn't have Everlasting LIFE though.

no one was raised from the grave , REDEEMED , put on immortality, became incorruptible, UNTIL all was fulfilled. All creation was still moaning, awaiting His coming!

i know they were not Redeemed until He Returned. You play games trying to say This is when The Blood Covenant started.

Paul knew when the tribulation of “the latter times” was. All the saints of that generation knew they were in “the last days” of the Old Covenant MOSAIC Age.
All the saints knew it was the “Time of the End” which Prophet Daniel spoke of.
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to “the time of the end:” many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Jesus opened and fulfilled the seals of Daniels prophecy at the “Time of the End.”

1 Timothy 4:1-2 KJV — Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Tribulation involved false prophets trying to pull them away from Faith.

 

[parousia70]

We are shown in scripture just what characteristics that glorified human body of Christ had.
Becoming invisible by "vanishing" from sight is one characteristic.
Being able to pass without hindrance through solid physical obstacles (such as the totally-intact, enclosed sepulchre).
Being able to eat and drink is another.
Being able to be handled, with a body which has tangible flesh and bones.
Being able to levitate.
Being able to travel from earth to heaven's realm and into God's presence, and back again to earth, even before a couple hours had gone by, apparently with the speed of thought.
Being deathless, with no risk whatever of ever dying again a second time.
Being able to adopt at will variations of appearance in that human form.

His Pre Crucifixion Body was able to walk on water and pass through hostile crowds untouched.

To suggest His pre crucifixion body, the one that could walk on water and pas through Hostile crowds untouched, was somehow incapable of walking through walls or causing people to not be able to see Him is unfounded and unsupported by the evidence.

No, because the OT "comings" of God did not yet include the incarnate characteristics of the resurrected Son. For any coming returns which that resurrected Son would make after His resurrection, of necessity they would involve the same glorified human body which emerged from the tomb on His resurrection day.

Jesus’ body was Transformed after His ascension according to Acts 9:3-6 and Revelation 1:13-16 such that it took on a form like that of the Father and the heavenly host. In describing the appearance of God, Ezekiel 1:26-28 reads:

Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord.

Jesus’ resurrection body after His ascension into heaven is described with similar radiance and glory according to Revelation 1:13-16:

[A]nd among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.”

This OBVIOUSLY is completely different from ANY eyewitness account of His post-resurrection PRE ASCENSION Body. Something clearly, undeniably, Changed at the ascension, and not before.

 

[parousia70]

It's quite a different thing for David to describe a battle in metaphors, than it is for a prophet. David is composing a song. John is writing about a spiritual supernatural experience that presumably contains prophecy. And before you ask, David is not a prophet, and not everything he writes in this song has to be physically true in a literal sense, anymore than a song I hear on a Christian radio station. I expect both to have truth, but I don't expect that he saw God's physical nostrils to see smoke coming out of them. (Unless it was a dream of the battle.

So either you can fit the events to a time period or you can't. If you can't, then everyone is just speculating (intelligently or not) on the meaning of the book for our future.

In all previous Day of the Lord events that were fulfilled as the Judgement of God upon Nations, using human armies as His agents, the language used by the PROPHETS foretelling them is the same; Sun Darkening, Stars falling, earth splitting, mountains melting, universe collapsing, God riding a cloud, wielding His sword, etc etc....

It is only from the later generations, removed from the genre of Jewish apocalyptic literature, that we find the false, over literalization of such language that was used time and again by the Prophets of God in metaphoric ways to describe the fall of a nation.

The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history and even at the end of time. Study the following comings of God in history and think about the way in which the prophets use familiar doom language in each case:

God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)


God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)


God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)


God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)


God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)


God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)


God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the Sun, Moon and constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matthew 16:27-28; Luke 9:26; Matthew 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matthew 16:27-28; Matthew 24:33-34).

He made specific Promises to them that He did not fail to fulfill. He did not Lie to them.

 

[David Kent]

He Promised them a Covenant with Salvation. The Law passed away for them when doing so. JESUS Said This ...deal with It:
[Matthew 5:17 KJV] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The Law vanished away on its own. Still was never about Salvation

Luk 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

 

[David Kent]

That is not what the sentence structure of Isaiah 44:24-28 tells us. Read those whole sentences, from Isaiah 44:24 through Isaiah 44:28. It wasn't Cyrus saying that Jerusalem should be built. It was God. God worked through all the Persian kings to accomplish His purpose of "reviving His work in the midst of the years", as Habakkuk had once prayed.

God as the subject of these entire sentences gave a whole list of things about what He had done, was doing, and would be doing in the future in these four verses. "Thus sayeth the Lord that redeems thee, and who formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that performs all things: I stretched out the heaven alone, and established the earth. Who else will frustrate the tokens of those that have divining spirits, and prophecies from the heart of man? turning the wise back, and making their counsel foolishness: and confirming the word of his servant, and verifying the counsel of his messengers: who says to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited: and to the cities of Idumea, Ye shall be built, and her desert places shall spring forth. Who says to the deep, Thou shalt be dried up, and I will dry up the rivers. Who bids Cyrus be wise, and he shall perform all my will: who says to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built, and *I* " (God is speaking here - not Cyrus) "will lay the foundation of MY holy house."

BACK TO CYRUS.

Isaiah 45:13
I have raised him up in righteousness,
and I will direct all his ways:
he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives,
not for price nor reward,
saith the LORD of hosts.

Daniel 9 refers only to the command going forth, not the actual building of the temple.

Cyrus did that.


Who do you think published God's command if not Cyrus?

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

His Pre Crucifixion Body was able to walk on water and pass through hostile crowds untouched.

To suggest His pre crucifixion body, the one that could walk on water and pas through Hostile crowds untouched, was somehow incapable of walking through walls or causing people to not be able to see Him is unfounded and unsupported by the evidence.



Jesus’ body was Transformed after His ascension according to Acts 9:3-6 and Revelation 1:13-16 such that it took on a form like that of the Father and the heavenly host. In describing the appearance of God, Ezekiel 1:26-28 reads:

Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord.

Jesus’ resurrection body after His ascension into heaven is described with similar radiance and glory according to Revelation 1:13-16:

[A]nd among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.”

This OBVIOUSLY is completely different from ANY eyewitness account of His post-resurrection PRE ASCENSION Body. Something clearly, undeniably, Changed at the ascension, and not before.

Good points, the false church demands JESUS be Physical for His Return ...they do this because they think they are getting magic Glorified Bodies to force them on a Narrow Way. they think "oh, i can't stop sinning ...but won't it be great when i have my magic body and won't be able to sin anymore?"

What are you Saved from? Saved from The Final Judgment because you would have had Eternal LIFE already.
The overused Verse by premills in the pic doesn't Say "The Final Judgment" ...It doesn't even Say "The Judgment".

The Verse after:
Hebrews 9:28 KJV — So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Only The Saved see He Has Returned!​

[1 John 3:2 KJV] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

You get Judged if you are in The Resurrection of The Just ...It isn't The Final White Throne Judgment that the false church is going to.

John 5:25-29 KJV — Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Invisible? Yes Invisible:

1 Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[2Co 5:16 KJV] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

[Jhn 17:11 KJV] And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

[Jhn 17:12 KJV] While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 14:18-19 NKJV — “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.

John 14:22-24 NKJV — Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

----------------------------------------------

1 John‬ ‭1‬:‭5‬ ‭KJV‬‬
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJV — And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

‭‭Same Word! It Obviously already Happened:​

 

[3 Resurrections]

His Pre Crucifixion Body was able to walk on water and pass through hostile crowds untouched.

To suggest His pre crucifixion body, the one that could walk on water and pas through Hostile crowds untouched, was somehow incapable of walking through walls or causing people to not be able to see Him is unfounded and unsupported by the evidence.

This is true of Christ's pre-crucifixion body. Yes, as the Master of the wind and the waves, He was capable of walking on water; passing through hostile crowds, even appearing transfigured on the Mount. But we are not talking about Christ's pre-crucifixion capabilities as the Son of God. We are specifically speaking about the characteristics of Christ's post-resurrection body and His post-ascension body during those 40 days He manifested Himself to those many witnesses He had chosen to reveal Himself.

That was Christ's post-ascension body that was shown to the women on the road who held Christ by the feet. It was Christ's post-ascension body walking with the two on the road to Emmaus that day, and His post-ascension body which He invited His disciples to touch later that evening. It was a body that ate and drank with the disciples. We know that Christ had already ascended to heaven before He encountered all these individuals because He told Mary that He was doing so that morning after His resurrection in John 20:17. That resurrection-day ascension was the occasion when all power was given unto Christ in heaven and in earth, as He told His disciples in Matthew 28:18, even before His Acts 1 final ascension. It was a glorified body capable of taking on various appearances and forms at will, as Mark 16:12 shows us.

If you are reluctant to accept the example of Christ's post-ascension body during those 40 days as the type of glorified body we ourselves will experience in a resurrection process, God gave us 144,000 more examples of Jewish First-fruits saints raised from their graves that same day as Christ's resurrection, who went into Jerusalem and were seen of many. As "children of the resurrection", these 144,000 Jewish First-fruits of the First resurrection were incapable of ever dying again.

 

[David Kent]

This is true of Christ's pre-crucifixion body. Yes, as the Master of the wind and the waves, He was capable of walking on water; passing through hostile crowds, even appearing transfigured on the Mount. But we are not talking about Christ's pre-crucifixion capabilities as the Son of God. We are specifically speaking about the characteristics of Christ's post-resurrection body and His post-ascension body during those 40 days He manifested Himself to those many witnesses He had chosen to reveal Himself.

That was Christ's post-ascension body that was shown to the women on the road who held Christ by the feet. It was Christ's post-ascension body walking with the two on the road to Emmaus that day, and His post-ascension body which He invited His disciples to touch later that evening. It was a body that ate and drank with the disciples. We know that Christ had already ascended to heaven before He encountered all these individuals because He told Mary that He was doing so that morning after His resurrection in John 20:17. That resurrection-day ascension was the occasion when all power was given unto Christ in heaven and in earth, as He told His disciples in Matthew 28:18, even before His Acts 1 final ascension. It was a glorified body capable of taking on various appearances and forms at will, as Mark 16:12 shows us.

If you are reluctant to accept the example of Christ's post-ascension body during those 40 days as the type of glorified body we ourselves will experience in a resurrection process, God gave us 144,000 more examples of Jewish First-fruits saints raised from their graves that same day as Christ's resurrection, who went into Jerusalem and were seen of many. As "children of the resurrection", these 144,000 Jewish First-fruits of the First resurrection were incapable of ever dying again.

I think the transfiguration shows us what his body will be like , only more so.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

[Revelation 4:5 KJV] And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

CHRIST Is 7 SPIRITS?

i'm still working this out, but interested if you have thoughts:

The Four Winds are The Four Horsemen of Rev 6?
But they are 7 somehow? The Four Beasts of Rev 4?
7 from 4?

[Isaiah 11:2 KJV]
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, (Lion, LIFE, East Rising of Sun?)
the spirit of wisdom and understanding, (Man?)
the spirit of counsel and might, (Ox?)
the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; (Eagle?)

Each Horse Represents Two SPIRITS, But THE LORD is of course HIS OWN SPIRIT (LIFE). They are the Sons of GOD in The OT? Something like Churches of GOD. The other Trees Adam and Eve could have eaten from.

The SPIRIT of THE LORD with other Spirits behind Him:
[Zechariah 1:8 KJV] I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.

Saying the same Thing?:
Genesis 3:24 KJV — So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Cherubims are not Angels? Just because something has wings doesn't mean it's a Angel. They guard The Truth.​

1 Kings 7:36 KJV — For on the plates of the ledges thereof, and on the borders thereof, he graved cherubims, lions, and palm trees, according to the proportion of every one, and additions round about.

2 Kings 19:15 KJV — And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

Ezekiel 41:18 KJV — And it was made with cherubims and palm trees, so that a palm tree was between a cherub and a cherub; and every cherub had two faces;

Cherubims guard The Truth via a Veil:​

Exodus 26:31 KJV — And thou shalt make a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made:

Revelation 17:3-4 KJV — So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

2 Samuel 1:24 KJV — Ye daughters of Israel, weep over Saul, who clothed you in scarlet, with other delights, who put on ornaments of gold upon your apparel.

Isaiah 1:18 KJV — Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Lamentations 4:5 KJV — They that did feed delicately are desolate in the streets: they that were brought up in scarlet embrace dunghills.

Revelation 18:12 KJV — The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

Revelation 18:16 KJV — And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

What we are clothed in is a big deal.​

[Malachi 2:16 KJV] For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

[Revelation 7:14 KJV] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Luke 7:25 KJV — But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.

Luke 8:35 KJV — Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

Luke 16:19 KJV — There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

[Luke 24:49 KJV] And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

[Isaiah 61:10 KJV] I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

[Psalm 30:11 KJV] Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;

[Job 40:10 KJV] Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.

[Proverbs 31:25 KJV] Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.

[2 Samuel 22:40 KJV] For thou hast girded me with strength to battle: them that rose up against me hast thou subdued under me.

[Romans 13:14 KJV] But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

[Galatians 3:27 KJV] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

[Ephesians 4:24 KJV] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

[Colossians 3:10 KJV] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
[Colossians 3:12 KJV] Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

[Romans 13:11-12 KJV] And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
[12] The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

[Ephesians 6:11-14 KJV] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
[12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
[13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
[14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

[Isaiah 59:15-19 KJV] Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
[16] And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
[17] For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
[18] According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
[19] So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

2 Corinthians 5:2-5 KJV — For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Revelation 3:5 KJV — He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

And then He Returned with Redempted Bodies.

[Romans 8:18-23 KJV] For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
[19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
[21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

[Matthew 22:11-13 KJV] And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
[12] And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
[13] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Babylon starts using CHRIST in The Veil:

Matthew 27:28 KJV — And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.

Linking back to it:
Hebrews 9:19 KJV — For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Mark 15:17 KJV — And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head,




2 Corinthians 3:15-16 KJV — But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2 Corinthians 3:18 KJV — But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV — But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.




[Zechariah 1:10 KJV] And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.

Going to and fro the earth is what Sons of GOD do.


[Zechariah 6:2-3 KJV] In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;
[3] And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.
[Zechariah 6:5 KJV] And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

Plummet Means Stone
[Zechariah 4:10 KJV] For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

[Deuteronomy 11:12 KJV] A land which the LORD thy God careth for: the eyes of the LORD thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.

[Zechariah 3:9 KJV] For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

The HOLY SPIRIT couldn't Enter people's Temples until JESUS Made It Possible to be a Temple. The Eyes were before JESUS' Advent?​

The LORD Became a LAMB with 7 Eyes and Horns.

[Revelation 5:6 KJV] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Edit: The Four Winds are Angels ...so i don't know what to make of that:

[Revelation 7:1 KJV] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
[Revelation 7:2 KJV] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

Full Preterists want to say satan isn't real and that there are no bad angels ...only bad people. they shamelessly do this to explain Rev 20 ...satan is somehow Jews to them. They need to be already past The White Throne Judgment without Crucifying their old selves. to them, if satan's spirit is still around then JESUS didn't Fulfill all things.

Why even say it was prepared for someone else if it was made for human children of the devil?

Matthew 25:41 KJV — Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

hell is right now, all around us ...doesn't mean it wasn't first created for angels and their leader.

Ephesians 6:11-12 KJV — Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Psalm 89:5-7 ESV — Let the heavens praise your wonders, O LORD,
your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones! For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD?
Who among the heavenly beings is like the LORD, a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones,
and awesome above all who are around him?

Why Say they will die like men if they were already men?
Psalm 82:1 KJV — A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
Psalm 82:7 KJV — But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

i agree with them that satan wasn't an Angel ...he was bigger than that ...a cherub. Cherubim are not Angels and i don't think there are many of them. i'm guessing 4 ...and they each are two faced. Whatever they are seems to be two persons in one?

Ezekiel 41:18 KJV — And it was made with cherubims and palm trees, so that a palm tree was between a cherub and a cherub; and every cherub had two faces;

before you keep reading, understand that JESUS Is my GOD:

Revelation 21:7 KJV — He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

CHRIST Is GOD The Infinite FATHER'S SPIRIT ...So of course CHRIST Outranks satan, but there is something to CHRIST Dealing with satan directly:

[Zechariah 3:1-2 KJV] And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
[2] And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

[Psalm 109:6-7 KJV] Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
[7] When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

[Revelation 13:16 KJV] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

[Deuteronomy 11:18 KJV] Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

[Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 KJV] I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
[19] For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
[20] All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
[21] Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

[Psalm 49:19-20 KJV] He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.
[20] Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

What is going on Here? Well, The LORD Here could easily be CHRIST:

[Job 2:1-2 KJV] Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
[2] And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

[Zechariah 1:10 KJV] And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.

Going to and fro the earth is what Sons of GOD do?

[Job 38:6-7 KJV] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
[7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

why was satan able to use pride and get other people to use his spirit/will? ...because of what he was?

Why does the First Horse of Four have only One SPIRIT? why is satan referred to as a lion and son of the morning? is satan an attempt at replacing CHRIST?

[Isaiah 11:2 KJV]
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, (Lion, LIFE, East Rising of Sun?)
the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of counsel and might,
the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

The LORD is a Lion Cherub? was satan a 5th cherub? satan is a lion looking to devour.

Hosea 13:6-8 KJV — According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me. Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them: I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.

1 Peter 5:8 KJV — Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


how did satan become this delusional unless he was something very high ranking?

[Isaiah 14:12-14 KJV] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
[13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
[14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

[2 Peter 1:19 KJV] We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

satan was a son of the Morning ...LIFE, LIGHT? why is satan so good at pretending to be Light? ...because he use to be It. lucifer means shining one.

satan transforms into an angel, doesn't Say he was one. Cherubim are something we don't have a concept of.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 KJV — For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The White Throne Judgment is for your works when you refuse Eternal LIFE.

[Luke 1:78-79 KJV] Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
[79] To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

[Psalm 119:104-106 KJV] Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
[105] NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
[106] I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments.

lucifer was the spirit of The Narrow Way? but he turned It artificial?

satan is the tree of knowledge of good and evil? ...GOD'S Definitions of good and evil. satan used pride to define an artificial narrow way.

Two Trees in the middle of The Garden. LIFE and death.

[Genesis 2:9 KJV] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

could satan be The Law of sin and death? or at least the reason for It? satan accused day and night because he knew It so well?


satan has angels under him ...but doesn't Say he is one:

Revelation 12:9 KJV — And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


satan was cast out of Heaven ...why wasn't It JESUS to Do It? ...Maybe It Was JESUS:

[Revelation 12:7 KJV] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Could Michael be a Cherubim ...JESUS in One of His Forms?

Archangel means Prince of Angels ...doesn't Say He Himself is an Angel.

[Jude 1:9 KJV] Yet Michael the archangel,[G743] when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

[Zechariah 3:2 KJV] And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

This sure is an interesting thing to Write:​

[1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJV] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,[G743] and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Daniel 10:12-14 KJV — Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

JESUS wasn't an Angel very often:

[Hebrews 1:4-6 KJV] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
[6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Infinite GOD THE FATHER Wants to be Worshipped through His Begotten SON.

if satan can morph into a false angel of light ...then JESUS can Morph into The Angel of The LORD.

JESUS Morphed into The Angel of The LORD:

[Revelation 10:1 KJV] And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

[Daniel 3:25 KJV] He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
[Daniel 3:28 KJV] Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

 

[David Kent]

The JWs believe that Jesus is Michael.
Michael means, Who is like God.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

The JWs believe that Jesus is Michael.
Michael means, Who is like God.

i looked down on them ...but they get a couple things right. 1. There is no Trinity. 2. They don't believe in a free pass into Heaven like the false church does. 3. They don't collect money at their services. 4. They don't believe in infinite hell.

Who is like GOD The Infinite FATHER?

why would satan even think he could go to war in Heaven unless he was a Cherub like Michael?

A Prince is a Leader of Angels ...a Cherub

[John 12:31 KJV] Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

[John 14:30 KJV] Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

[John 16:11 KJV] Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

[Ephesians 2:2 KJV] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

the false church wants to be forced onto The Narrow Way with magic Resurrected bodies ...The Born Again don't become gods that can walk through walls.

If JESUS was Given Dominion at one point ...doesn't that mean He didn't have It beforehand?

[Daniel 7:13-14 KJV] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
[14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

[David Kent]

I agree with your point about JAs. I am not sure how they get their money from if they don't collect money at their services. It must be a very expensive organisation to run with all the literature that they publish.

And recently the governing council appealled to the halls for more donations.

I have had a number of conversations with the JWs who have a pitch several days a week at the end of our Road. One a Nigerian who I think is an elder and I asked him this.

Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Is that the individual believer or the church. I said your NWT shows the pronouns are plural. He said come back and we can sit on a bench over there and we can discuss it. I know he wouldn't want to discuss it in front of his minions so I said you could hear. So I said we can discuss it here. The question is simple.

My question then would be Who lives in a temple? They don't believe the the Holy Spirit is God. Either God or a false god in paganism, lives in a temple. (I use the word lives loosely as regards paganism).