Preterism ends now ...but futurists are not right either

[David Kent]

T

This part of the verse - "even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built: and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid" - was God saying this to Jerusalem. It does not say that Cyrus would decree the rebuilding of Jerusalem's defensive walls, gates, and street. Cyrus's decree fulfilled his first part of this entire restoration process which God intended (the temple rebuilt, and the people of Israel authorized to return home) , and the succeeding kings of Persia also played their part in this process by their further decrees as well regarding the rebuilding process.

Cyrus's decree, of which we are given
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two copies in 2 Chronicles and Ezra, says nothing about rebuilding the city, its walls, or street. That part of the complete restoration process only came later under Artaxerxes I in 454 BC at the beginning of the 70-weeks prophecy.

As I said, the decree was God's. Cyrus was to say that Jerusalem should be built. It was. Cyrus only mentioned the temple because that was what he saw was most important. It must have followed on immediately after the end of the 70 years. The city was built before the temple, so it must have been decreed.
Artaxexes in Ezra is the same king as Darius as I have already shown.

 

[David Kent]

I don't understand you reasoning here, unless you are just ignoring the plain teaching ov scripture to suit your own views.

Cyrus would perform God's pleasure even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shall be built.

It mentions Jerusalem and the temple. It doesn't mention the walls

 

[3 Resurrections]

As I said, the decree was God's. Cyrus was to say that Jerusalem should be built.

That is not what the sentence structure of Isaiah 44:24-28 tells us. Read those whole sentences, from Isaiah 44:24 through Isaiah 44:28. It wasn't Cyrus saying that Jerusalem should be built. It was God. God worked through all the Persian kings to accomplish His purpose of "reviving His work in the midst of the years", as Habakkuk had once prayed.

God as the subject of these entire sentences gave a whole list of things about what He had done, was doing, and would be doing in the future in these four verses. "Thus sayeth the Lord that redeems thee, and who formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that performs all things: I stretched out the heaven alone, and established the earth. Who else will frustrate the tokens of those that have divining spirits, and prophecies from the heart of man? turning the wise back, and making their counsel foolishness: and confirming the word of his servant, and verifying the counsel of his messengers: who says to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited: and to the cities of Idumea, Ye shall be built, and her desert places shall spring forth. Who says to the deep, Thou shalt be dried up, and I will dry up the rivers. Who bids Cyrus be wise, and he shall perform all my will: who says to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built, and *I* " (God is speaking here - not Cyrus) "will lay the foundation of MY holy house."

 

[David Kent]

No. It was God telling Cyrus what to do. No mention of any other Persian kings. It was as I said, God made the decree but it was Cyrus who published it according to God's charge. "HE HAS CHARGED ME."

 

[3 Resurrections]

"HE HAS CHARGED ME."

To do what? "...He hath charged me TO BUILD HIM AN HOUSE IN JERUSALEM, which is in Judah." (2 Chron 36:23 and Ezra 1:2). This command of the God of Israel regarding the temple construction was finished according to the first three Persian decrees given, (as Ezra 6:14 wrote) "according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes kings of Persia.

It was the remaining 4th decree given by Artaxerxes I which concerned the additional restoration of the wall and street in Daniel 9:25, which 4th decree launched the 70 weeks.

 

[SuperCow]

In 2 Samuel 22, After David's Battlefield victory over Saul, David described the events of the battle thusly:

8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.
14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

Any thoughts on how one might "Map this metaphorical imagry to history"?

How would we "map" the imagry of God being optically seen coming down from heaven on the clouds, riding a cherub, kindling fires with His nostril breath, shaking the entire earth to it's foundations and drying up the seas, to the events of this battle?

It's quite a different thing for David to describe a battle in metaphors, than it is for a prophet. David is composing a song. John is writing about a spiritual supernatural experience that presumably contains prophecy. And before you ask, David is not a prophet, and not everything he writes in this song has to be physically true in a literal sense, anymore than a song I hear on a Christian radio station. I expect both to have truth, but I don't expect that he saw God's physical nostrils to see smoke coming out of them. (Unless it was a dream of the battle)

If we are suggesting the full preterism reasoning for the book of Revelation, then someone in some time (not necessarily us), will have to understand the meaning of the book. If not, what is the point of the book other than the first few chapters as advice to the churches. (Which at that point is implied in the book to be past, not prophecy even though it might have parallels to churches throughout history.)

If it is not someone in our time that can describe the meaning of the book, and the book is true prophecy, then it probably hasn't happened yet. If that is the case, then I don't see how I can accept the full preterist viewpoint. If it can be partially explained up to a certain point, but not afterwards, then partial preterism/historicism fits better. If none of it can be explained, then the futurist interpretation fits better.

So either you can fit the events to a time period or you can't. If you can't, then everyone is just speculating (intelligently or not) on the meaning of the book for our future.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

It's quite a different thing for David to describe a battle in metaphors, than it is for a prophet. David is composing a song. John is writing about a spiritual supernatural experience that presumably contains prophecy. And before you ask, David is not a prophet, and not everything he writes in this song has to be physically true in a literal sense, anymore than a song I hear on a Christian radio station. I expect both to have truth, but I don't expect that he saw God's physical nostrils to see smoke coming out of them. (Unless it was a dream of the battle)

If we are suggesting the full preterism reasoning for the book of Revelation, then someone in some time (not necessarily us), will have to understand the meaning of the book. If not, what is the point of the book other than the first few chapters as advice to the churches. (Which at that point is implied in the book to be past, not prophecy even though it might have parallels to churches throughout history.)

If it is not someone in our time that can describe the meaning of the book, and the book is true prophecy, then it probably hasn't happened yet. If that is the case, then I don't see how I can accept the full preterist viewpoint. If it can be partially explained up to a certain point, but not afterwards, then partial preterism/historicism fits better. If none of it can be explained, then the futurist interpretation fits better.

So either you can fit the events to a time period or you can't. If you can't, then everyone is just speculating (intelligently or not) on the meaning of the book for our future.

wow, the false spirit of eschatology hasn't gotten to you yet ...i'm not sure i've seen someone like you before. it usually finds out what you prefer and then explain away Rev 20 in a way for satan to own you.

Here is what GOD Gave me today:

JESUS Fulfilled the First Testament (Heaven and Earth) by The Testator Death. He Made their Sacrifices of the past to actually Forgive sin. But none of them had Salvation. Jews got Judged even if they were considered Righteous. The Adopted will not face the same Judgment as they are under The Blood Covenant. The White Throne Judgment of Rev 20 is for those on satan's version of The Narrow Way.

Hebrews 9:15-16 KJV — And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Matthew 19:28 KJV — And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

the false church tries to say we are spiritually a tribe of Israel. was Abraham in a Tribe? Going through a Gate with the name of a Tribe doesn't mean you have to be from that Tribe.

GOD isn't going to Judge your Eternal LIFE away if you already have It!​

if you think you can continue in deliberate sin after having It ...then you don't have It.

if you think you have to wait for It because you are a premill ...then you are gambling with your soul.

why would you choose to go through a Final Judgment when you could have bypassed It?

i know, i know, you will bring This up ...but you refuse to understand they were before He Returned for The Resurrection of The Just:

2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV — For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

They didn't have Eternal LIFE until He Judged them on His Return. They had The Blood Covenant, but they still couldn't get past The Judgment.

But read This:

1 Corinthians 3:13 KJV — Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

You will have a Final Judgment because you refused to give up satan's narrow way that includes free will.

Revelation 20:12 KJV — And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

What were those other books of Rev 20:12? my guess is those owned by satan for using his way.

The Law couldn't give LIFE:

Galatians 3:21 KJV — Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

The Promise of GOD Is LIFE. If you become Adopted after HE Returned then you have Everlasting LIFE.​

Why would it only be possible to have Life ...after this Test is over? that doesn't make any sense.

More Word from GOD after Midnight:

[John 6:51 KJV] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

[John 11:25-26 KJV] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[1 Corinthians 15:21-22 KJV] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

[Luke 20:36 KJV] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

[John 8:51 KJV] Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

[Matthew 16:28 KJV] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Eternal LIFE:

[Revelation 3:12 KJV] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

They missed out:

[Jeremiah 8:20 KJV] The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.
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1 Peter 4:17-18 KJV
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1 Peter 4:7 KJV — But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

The Resurrection of The Just Started at The Temple falling. Rev Told us all along that THE RESURRECTION is in two parts.

1 Peter 4:18 KJV — And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Revelation 20:5 KJV — But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

--------------------------------------------

many have the mark of the beast right now, your old man is not on a Cross. satan owns anyone that still has access to their free will old selves.

Hebrews 9:26 KJV — For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

It's you that will start living without sin after your old man is permanently Crucified. if you are not of The Resurrection of The Just ...then you are right ...you haven't been Judged yet ...good luck with That:

Hebrews 9:27-28 KJV — And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

After Midnight from GOD:
[1 Corinthians 15:23-24 KJV] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Rev 11 is when 70 A.D. happened. The Thousand Years Started Then or right after.

--------------------------------------------

the full preterism con is The White Throne Judgment already Happening ...that way you think you bypassed It while still being on the imputed Righteousness broad gate (the serpent's lie to Eve). their false prophet spirit started with The White Throne Judgment to work out a way around it. it really is the core of their deceit. the false prophet spirit let them know HE already Returned ...that's all it took for them to think it was right about everything else.

so their, Fulfilled all things of all thing groups is directly related to bypassing The White Throne Judgment without Eternal LIFE.

they declare they have Everlasting LIFE ...but they already know that isn't true. No one with Everlasting LIFE has free will to choose death to their Relationship with GOD. You can't have Eternal LIFE and imputed righteousness at the same time.

JESUS was Saying He was Coming Quickly for The Resurrection of The Just ...The First Resurrection.

late edit:
Hebrews 7:19 KJV — For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Hebrews 10:1 KJV — For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

JESUS Returned with The Way to LIVE with CHRIST ...The Melchizedek Order. Perfection. The Way to keep your free will old man on a Cross. Peace.

 

[David Kent]

It's quite a different thing for David to describe a battle in metaphors, than it is for a prophet. David is composing a song. John is writing about a spiritual supernatural experience that presumably contains prophecy. And before you ask, David is not a prophet, and not everything he writes in this song has to be physically true in a literal sense, anymore than a song I hear on a Christian radio station. I expect both to have truth, but I don't expect that he saw God's physical nostrils to see smoke coming out of them. (Unless it was a dream of the battle)

David not a prophet? He certainly is.

 

[David Kent]

To do what? "...He hath charged me TO BUILD HIM AN HOUSE IN JERUSALEM, which is in Judah." (2 Chron 36:23 and Ezra 1:2). This command of the God of Israel regarding the temple construction was finished according to the first three Persian decrees given, (as Ezra 6:14 wrote) "according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes kings of Persia.

It was the remaining 4th decree given by Artaxerxes I which concerned the additional restoration of the wall and street in Daniel 9:25, which 4th decree launched the 70 weeks.

The charge is here.
Isaiah 44:28 who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd,
and he shall fulfill all my purpose’;
saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’
and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’”


Note the city would be built before the temple foundations were to be laid. Cyrus mentioned the temple because it was what he considered the greatest honour, to build a house for the God who had led him by the hand. Nehemiah only repaired the walls. The people were living in their own houses and some of them worked on the wall by their own house.

Isaiah 44:28 who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd,
and he shall fulfill all my purpose’;
saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’
and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.

Building Jerusalem would include the streets and the walls.

Nehemiah returned to Jerusalem before Ezra.

Daniel 9 refers to the going forth of the command. That was by Cyrus immediately after the 70 exile were completed.7 weeks or 49 years during which they were rebuilt in times of trouble would take us to about the 31st year of the rule of Darius. The walls were finished in the 32nd year of his rule which was after 31 years were completed.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Isaiah 44:28 who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd,
and he shall fulfill all my purpose’;
saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’
and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.

"Thus sayeth the Lord that redeems thee, and who formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that performs all things: I stretched out the heaven alone, and established the earth. Who else will frustrate the tokens of those that have divining spirits, and prophecies from the heart of man? turning the wise back, and making their counsel foolishness: and confirming the word of his servant, and verifying the counsel of his messengers: who says to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited: and to the cities of Idumea, Ye shall be built, and her desert places shall spring forth. Who says to the deep, Thou shalt be dried up, and I will dry up the rivers. Who bids Cyrus be wise, and he shall perform all my will: who says to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built, and *I* " (God is speaking here - not Cyrus) "will lay the foundation of MY holy house."

I am relying on the LXX version of Isaiah 44:24-28, which more clearly shows that God was speaking directly to Jerusalem about His own house, and it was not Cyrus speaking to Jerusalem. That is not Cyrus's decree listed in Isaiah 44:28.

We have two copies of Cyrus's actual written decree sent out among the empire, given verbatim in 2 Chronicles 36:23 and Ezra 1:2-4. There is no mention whatever of Cyrus giving a decree for restoring the city of Jerusalem's wall and street.

I've known others like yourself that are firmly dedicated to dating the 490 years from Cyrus's original decree because it fits their dating paradigm better. The only reason why I belabor the point is that Christ's identity as "Messiah the Prince" coming at that very specific year at the beginning of the 70th week confirms His deity. If Christ was manifested as Messiah the Prince in any other year than the one Daniel 9:25 predicted, then He was a false prophet and we need not believe a single thing He said.

 

[SuperCow]

wow, the false spirit of eschatology hasn't gotten to you yet ...i'm not sure i've seen someone like you before. it usually finds out what you prefer and then explain away Rev 20 in a way for satan to own you.

Don't get the wrong impression by my questions, because I'm not sure about where you are coming from. There's a lot in this post and some context would be appreciated. Is the above statement genuine or sarcastic? A lot of people here seem to become hostile when they find out your beliefs are slightly different than theirs, even though I think the vast majority of us overlap in about 80%+ of what we believe. (Of course most of Revelation is part of the 20%.

I don't have any argument with most of your post. The thread is about Revelation though and I'm thinking I should stay on topic, so I'll stick to just the questions I have. A lot of your post points to Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:12 KJV — And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

What were those other books of Rev 20:12? my guess is those owned by satan for using his way.

I'm not sure what the books are referring to, but I don't see how they could be owned by Satan. I am also confused by this:

JESUS Fulfilled the First Testament (Heaven and Earth) by The Testator Death. He Made their Sacrifices of the past to actually Forgive sin. But none of them had Salvation. Jews got Judged even if they were considered Righteous. The Adopted will not face the same Judgment as they are under The Blood Covenant. The White Throne Judgment of Rev 20 is for those on satan's version of The Narrow Way.

Revelation 20:5 KJV — But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So when did the thousand years start and end? We've had twice that amount of time since Jesus died and was resurrected. Here you say:

Rev 11 is when 70 A.D. happened. The Thousand Years Started Then or right after.

This appears to be preterism ideology; however, here you call it a deceitful con:

the full preterism con is The White Throne Judgment already Happening ...that way you think you bypassed It while still being on the imputed Righteousness broad gate (the serpent's lie to Eve). their false prophet spirit started with The White Throne Judgment to work out a way around it. it really is the core of their deceit. the false prophet spirit let them know HE already Returned ...that's all it took for them to think it was right about everything else.

So I thought the futurist belief would be that the 1000 years has not started yet, and the idea that the 1000 years being from 70-1070 A.D. would be preterism. I don't think either viewpoint is trying to bypass judgement, and that doesn't really relate to what I said earlier anyway. I was just laying out guidelines as to what needs to be true for any of the three ideological theories to be relevant. I want to know how to understand each chapter of Revelation.

1: Introduction
2-3 : Admonition to the churches
4: Description of the heavenly throne.
-- So to this point there is no history/future described yet
5: Sacrifice of Jesus (The Lamb) who is described as worthy for his position.
-- We know when this happened (27-33 AD should cover all the relevant theories)

Now we get to the real discussions of what the rest of the book means.
6-7: I have read several preterist/historicist discussions of this, and they are reasonable arguments.

Starting in chapter 8; however, most of the theories seem to grasp at straws trying to explain its meaning, and that is pretty much across the board of theological beliefs. Yes, little bits of it can seem like reasonable explanations, but not in context of the entire book, and not in historical order.

Starting in chapter 17, there is a lot that sounds like it could be related to a pre-rendering of modern politics, especially if you equate it with some of the prophecy in Daniel, but what do I do with the previous 9 chapters then?

And finally, I don't see how chapter 20-22 could be any time in the past.

so their, Fulfilled all things of all thing groups is directly related to bypassing The White Throne Judgment without Eternal LIFE.

they declare they have Everlasting LIFE ...but they already know that isn't true. No one with Everlasting LIFE has free will to choose death to their Relationship with GOD. You can't have Eternal LIFE and imputed righteousness at the same time.

JESUS was Saying He was Coming Quickly for The Resurrection of The Just ...The First Resurrection.

This is true, but I die tomorrow and then resurrected, my personal sense of time would feel like I was instantly resurrected regardless of whether it was instant, or didn't happen for hundreds or thousands of years. To me it would be quick.

the false church tries to say we are spiritually a tribe of Israel. was Abraham in a Tribe? Going through a Gate with the name of a Tribe doesn't mean you have to be from that Tribe.

On this final note, I tend to believe that physical Israel has more relevance to prophecy than most Christians would like to believe. How much exactly and which prophecies is not always clear though. Personally, I don't think I'm descended from any of the tribes. I think the vast majority of my ancestors descend from Japheth.

 

[SuperCow]

David not a prophet? He certainly is.

David was not a prophet. None of the kings were. When David needed a reply from God, he sought out a prophet to mediate for him. Initially Samuel, but for most of his reign it was Nathan. (Who also was a prophet for Solomon)

2 Samuel 7
2 Samuel 12

Most of the kings had prophets who interdicted for them.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

I'm not sure what the books are referring to, but I don't see how they could be owned by Satan. I am also confused by this:

So when did the thousand years start and end? We've had twice that amount of time since Jesus died and was resurrected. Here you say:

This appears to be preterism ideology; however, here you call it a deceitful con:

The other books contain the lives lived under the lie told to Eve ...that their old selves didn't have to die.

[Genesis 2:17 KJV] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
[Genesis 3:4 KJV] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

There is other Scripture that shows a Thousand is not literal. It could just mean a long period of time. Did not end at 70 A.D.

Joshua 23:10
One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you.

Psalm 50:10
For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Chapter 12 has satan being Kicked out of Heaven ...i see this as the same thing as the beginning of Rev 20. So the Thousand Years includes stuff in the previous Chapters. satan was bound so he used a beast and false prophet to attack The Body of CHRIST ...from within.

Rev 21 and 22 are for The Adopted ...they skip over The White Throne Judgment. They are LIVING It right now. the false church ends in Rev 20 because that's where satan's lie ends.

if you are not in The Resurrection of The Just right now ...then you are not a Witness.

------------------------------------------------------

full preterists use Matthew 5:18 about 50 times a day for their con. this is how they read It: "until your Law of Salvation is destroyed, every aspect of The Law of Salvation will continue until I Return to destroy It."

It's until they Used CHRIST to Fulfill The Law for themselves:

Matthew 5:18 KJV — For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

JESUS was Speaking to Jews, wanting them to receive Eternal LIFE. Their version of Heaven and Earth in their minds had to end for them to have Eternal LIFE.

[2 Peter 3:10 KJV] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[2 Peter 3:13 KJV] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

John 15:22-25 KJV — If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. He that hateth me hateth my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Heaven and Earth were a Witness to The Tribes. They were not going to pass away until there was a New Witness ...CHRIST:

[Deuteronomy 4:25 KJV] When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:
[Deuteronomy 4:26 KJV] I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

[Psalm 50:4 KJV] He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

 

[3 Resurrections]

David was not a prophet. None of the kings were.

David Kent is right. David was a prophet.

"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his supulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore BEING A PROPHET, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:29-31).

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

Don't get the wrong impression by my questions, because I'm not sure about where you are coming from. There's a lot in this post and some context would be appreciated. Is the above statement genuine or sarcastic? A lot of people here seem to become hostile when they find out your beliefs are slightly different than theirs, even though I think the vast majority of us overlap in about 80%+ of what we believe. (Of course most of Revelation is part of the 20%.

I don't have any argument with most of your post. The thread is about Revelation though and I'm thinking I should stay on topic, so I'll stick to just the questions I have. A lot of your post points to Revelation 20.



I'm not sure what the books are referring to, but I don't see how they could be owned by Satan. I am also confused by this:




So when did the thousand years start and end? We've had twice that amount of time since Jesus died and was resurrected. Here you say:



This appears to be preterism ideology; however, here you call it a deceitful con:



So I thought the futurist belief would be that the 1000 years has not started yet, and the idea that the 1000 years being from 70-1070 A.D. would be preterism. I don't think either viewpoint is trying to bypass judgement, and that doesn't really relate to what I said earlier anyway. I was just laying out guidelines as to what needs to be true for any of the three ideological theories to be relevant. I want to know how to understand each chapter of Revelation.

1: Introduction
2-3 : Admonition to the churches
4: Description of the heavenly throne.
-- So to this point there is no history/future described yet
5: Sacrifice of Jesus (The Lamb) who is described as worthy for his position.
-- We know when this happened (27-33 AD should cover all the relevant theories)

Now we get to the real discussions of what the rest of the book means.
6-7: I have read several preterist/historicist discussions of this, and they are reasonable arguments.

Starting in chapter 8; however, most of the theories seem to grasp at straws trying to explain its meaning, and that is pretty much across the board of theological beliefs. Yes, little bits of it can seem like reasonable explanations, but not in context of the entire book, and not in historical order.

Starting in chapter 17, there is a lot that sounds like it could be related to a pre-rendering of modern politics, especially if you equate it with some of the prophecy in Daniel, but what do I do with the previous 9 chapters then?

And finally, I don't see how chapter 20-22 could be any time in the past.



This is true, but I die tomorrow and then resurrected, my personal sense of time would feel like I was instantly resurrected regardless of whether it was instant, or didn't happen for hundreds or thousands of years. To me it would be quick.



On this final note, I tend to believe that physical Israel has more relevance to prophecy than most Christians would like to believe. How much exactly and which prophecies is not always clear though. Personally, I don't think I'm descended from any of the tribes. I think the vast majority of my ancestors descend from Japheth.

Once you have The Truth of Rev 20 shown to you, you don't need the rest of Rev. But i feel like going to Rev 13 now even though you didn't ask for it:

satan's version of the narrow way is all about keeping your old self alive. that requires a satanic sacrifice, so how does satan pull this off in broad daylight? this is what Rev 13 is about. the dragon is bound so he setup worship within the church with his beast and false prophet.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

catholics have a box they stole from Jews called a Tabernacle. they think they replaced Jews. they say GOD'S Presence is inside. they sacrifice THE HOLY SPIRIT on a death altar every mass. it's how they claim to have unlimited forgiveness.

[Revelation 13:6 KJV] And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

it's a trade, THE HOLY SPIRIT for the false prophet spirit. their Eucharist is eating from the tree of knowledge. the false prophet spirit is having them worship The Dead Advocate ...to worship the first beast that had a wound by the sword and yet Lived ...by eating The Dead Advocate's Body. their bread is dead!

[Revelation 13:14 KJV] And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

they get Kicked out of The Garden every mass. they don't have THE HOLY SPIRIT so they have to rely on man's doctrine for everything.

[Gal 2:17-18 KJV] 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

This was Telling us the beasts would be inside the church:

[Revelation 13:10 KJV] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

and This:

Revelation 12:13 KJV — And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.


catholics are sacrificing The Relationship with GOD ... that means protestants are doing the same to get on satan's broad gate. the title "protestant" might as well be "imputed Righteousness" ...a branch of the tree of knowledge.

you are a son of perdition when the beast is on your Cross for you. JESUS isn't your HEAD ...so CHRIST is not your LORD GOD. you still have the same head (artificial father (dragon)) you chose when choosing a modified narrow way. satan owns anyone that doesn't have their old self on a Cross ...you have his mark of ownership. but hey, you get to claim imputed Righteousness now. you have sacrificed your presence with GOD in The Living Relationship.

[Job 29:3 KJV] When his candle shined upon my head, and when by his light I walked through darkness;

[Revelation 21:7 KJV] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

You Lift Him Up to Be your HEAD. You understand He didn't use free will to change The Narrow Way:

[John 8:28 KJV] Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

[John 12:32 KJV] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

are you a church temple for the artificial holy spirit (false prophet spirit)? it knows you have to claim to believe in JESUS' Resurrection, so it gives you a puppet show with The Dead Advocate ...if you actually Believed He Rose again, you would know He is Now LIVING and is not your minister for new sins.

[Revelation 13:15 KJV] And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

their artificial holy spirit (false prophet) has power in the sight of the beast who is hanging on your personal Cross that you should be on. ...while "JESUS" is busy being your servant on your Cross:

[Revelation 13:12 KJV] And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
[Revelation 13:13 KJV] And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
//artificial fire baptism from the artificial holy spirit?

[Revelation 13:14 KJV] And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

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[Revelation 17:8 KJV] The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

you are not going to recognize the use of death in the narrow way of satan's church when you are not in The Book Of LIFE. you don't recognize the death of your Relationship with GOD. a bottomless pit doesn't have a Relationship Foundation. a bottomless pit doesn't have a Door to Close on your old self. so the second things get tough, you start eyeing up a way to jump ship. You put your hand to the plow and looked back. There isn't a Door for JESUS to Knock on.

Lamentations 1:13-14 KJV — From above hath he sent fire into my bones, and it prevaileth against them: he hath spread a net for my feet, he hath turned me back: he hath made me desolate and faint all the day. The yoke of my transgressions is bound by his hand: they are wreathed, and come up upon my neck: he hath made my strength to fall, the Lord hath delivered me into their hands, from whom I am not able to rise up.

satan's modified Narrow Way includes forgiveness for sin that is already considered death to your Relationship with GOD. JESUS Died for your past sins so that when you Join Him on a Cross you can be on The Original Way of GOD for Eternal LIFE.

[2 Peter 1:9 KJV] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

[Romans 3:25 KJV] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Adam didn't choose a sin ...he chose a way to sin all he wanted. (unlimited forgiveness, imputed righteousness, sin-repent cycle, sin nature)

 

[SuperCow]

David Kent is right. David was a prophet.

"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his supulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore BEING A PROPHET, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:29-31).

Fair enough, but it still doesn't mean that a song has to be literal.

 

[David Kent]

Reborn-Adopted said:
Rev 11 is when 70 A.D. happened. The Thousand Years Started Then or right after.

SuperCow said:

This appears to be preterism ideology; however, here you call it a deceitful con

Revelation 10 is a graphic account of the Reformation. The beginning of Revelation 11 tells of what ened after. Luther cast out the outer court when he excommunicated the Pope.

Then they wondered if there had been previous gospel witnesses. He had not heard of any, till at the Diet of Worms, he was accused of being a Hussite. He denied it, but then he realised that he didn't know who Huss was, so he went to the university library and read about Huss. The next day he went into the Diet and said that he was a Hussite.

The reformers then looked back and they discovered over the centuries there had been witnesses for Christ and they are represented as "My two witnesses". They represented the church in the dark ages of tribulation. Two being the minimum number of witnesses under the law.

They were lampstands because they had the light of the gospe they were olive trees because the lamps were fed by the oil of the Spirit.

The Romanists asked the reformers: "Where was your religion before Luther?" Here they could show them.

The emblem of the Waldensians was a single lamp.

 

[David Kent]

Fair enough, but it still doesn't mean that a song has to be literal.

Prophecy mostly isn't literal. The book of Revelation is mostly isn't literal.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

Reborn-Adopted said:
Rev 11 is when 70 A.D. happened. The Thousand Years Started Then or right after.

SuperCow said:

This appears to be preterism ideology; however, here you call it a deceitful con

Revelation 10 is a graphic account of the Reformation. The beginning of Revelation 11 tells of what ened after. Luther cast out the outer court when he excommunicated the Pope.

Then they wondered if there had been previous gospel witnesses. He had not heard of any, till at the Diet of Worms, he was accused of being a Hussite. He denied it, but then he realised that he didn't know who Huss was, so he went to the university library and read about Huss. The next day he went into the Diet and said that he was a Hussite.

The reformers then looked back and they discovered over the centuries there had been witnesses for Christ and they are represented as "My two witnesses". They represented the church in the dark ages of tribulation. Two being the minimum number of witnesses under the law.

They were lampstands because they had the light of the gospe they were olive trees because the lamps were fed by the oil of the Spirit.

The Romanists asked the reformers: "Where was your religion before Luther?" Here they could show them.

The emblem of the Waldensians was a single lamp.

You are trying to cut catholics out of Revelation ...there is just no way. they started the trinity nonsense. are you pretending they didn't murder people for over a thousand years because they didn't bow to them? are you pretending they didn't sell the ability to sin?

the introduction of the trinity was the abomination of desolation. a church for a son of perdition that is using satan's designed Narrow Way. many heard him say your old self doesn't have to die so you gladly received the mark of the beast. their way is the bottomless pit ...no Relationship Foundation.

[Matthew 24:9-13 KJV] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
[10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
[12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

abomination of desolation is putting an idol on your Cross instead of you:​

[Ezekiel 14:6-7 KJV] Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
[7] For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:

Titus 1:15-16 KJV — Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Matthew 24:15 KJV — When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

[John 14:28-30 KJV] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
[29] And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
[30] Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 KJV — Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

[Revelation 12:14 KJV] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

free will is choosing GOD'S Will for your life or not. GOD'S Will is that you Know The Son and you do That by Getting on a Cross. FAITH Is Knowing GOD ...not your nonsense of knowing He is Real.

catholic:

so use your free will to choose God's will. You have to do it at all times and in every situation, but it will be YOUR will aligned with His.

hissssss, you don't have to get on a Cross ...just shape my free will to look Holy.

If you say you Believe, you are saying you Know HIM. If you Know Him then you don't have free will to sin anymore:

1 John 2:17 KJV — And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

[John 17:3 KJV] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 9:31 KJV — Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Hebrews 10:26 KJV — For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


This proves The Great Commission was modified by man to try to make a Trinity happen. JESUS Is THE HOLY SPIRIT, stop the madness.

[Acts 2:38 KJV] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 24:47-48 KJV — And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.

Why Word It like This when the other Two Scriptures don't?:
[Matthew 28:19 KJV] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Doesn't sound like The HOLY SPIRIT Is Its Own Person to me:
[John 16:13 KJV] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

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the artificial father (dragon) had 7 heads (before the beast) before he was forced to use religion:

[Revelation 12:3 KJV] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12:13 KJV — And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

those heads could have been roman emperors or the 7 king herods before and during 70 A.D. but now that satan has to work within the church the beast has 7 heads ...7 churches that babylon sits on.

[Psalm 74:13 KJV] Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.
[Psalm 74:14 KJV] Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

[Isaiah 4:1 KJV] And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.​

[Lamentations 1:10-11 KJV] The adversary hath spread out his hand upon all her pleasant things: for she hath seen that the heathen entered into her sanctuary, whom thou didst command that they should not enter into thy congregation.
[11] All her people sigh, they seek bread; they have given their pleasant things for meat to relieve the soul: see, O LORD, and consider; for I am become vile.

we already knew satan dwells in one of the 7 churches:

[Revelation 2:13 KJV] I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

the false church tries to explain this Verse away by saying It is about an altar to Zeus at Pergamum.

All the churches were in pagan land ...asia minor ...what nonsense ...they all had false idols in their towns.

[1 Corinthians 5:12 ESV] For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?

We are Told to Overcome the 7 Churches, Here is one Example of the Seven Times He Told us (Each Letter to a Church):

[Revelation 3:5 KJV] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Why Tell Philadelphia to Overcome when they had a good Report Card?
Revelation 3:12 KJV — Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Lamentations 4:12-14 KJV — The kings of the earth, and all the inhabitants of the world, would not have believed that the adversary and the enemy should have entered into the gates of Jerusalem. For the sins of her prophets, and the iniquities of her priests, that have shed the blood of the just in the midst of her, They have wandered as blind men in the streets, they have polluted themselves with blood, so that men could not touch their garments.

Jeremiah 7:30 KJV — For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.

satan's church is food for fallen angels:

Jeremiah 7:33-34 KJV — And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away. Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.

Revelation 19:17 KJV — And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Revelation 19:21 KJV — And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 18:23 KJV — And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

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it was a wh0r3 of babylon because it was government run religion. the worldly government was fine with the false church as long as they offered a way into The Kingdom with unlimited forgiveness.

catholics, protestants, and hebrew roots have something in common ...they all designed their own Narrow Way to get into New Jerusalem.

John 10:1 KJV — Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Jeremiah 3:17 KJV — At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

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Full Preterists can't answer what satan being loosed after The Thousand Years is. Scripture Says he had to be loosed ...GOD doesn't have to do anything. satan was loosed to start a new dead church ...protestantism.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

Adam didn't choose a sin ...he chose a way to sin all he wanted. (unlimited forgiveness, imputed righteousness, sin-repent cycle, sin nature)

why did satan need to be involved in The Garden? we couldn't choose to eat from that tree without satan's son of perdition in us. forbidden fruit forms it in us ...we don't inherit anything, we all chose to allow satan's will at our decision table at one point in our lives. we needed something to tell us we could do it and still be Saved. we needed to believe that our disobedient selves didn't have to die. we needed satan's version of The Narrow Way. there isn't sin nature, there is only your pathetic excuses.

so Adam picked what the serpent tempted his wife with, right? He chose a path that GOD didn't agree to. He chose death just like you chose your church of death ...same thing.

Genesis 2:17 KJV — But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

it's death to your Relationship with GOD (THE WAY) ...what in the world do you think GOD was Talking about? They didn't drop dead ...they got Kicked out of The Relationship ...Garden.

If we are His Temple ...we are also His Church. What kind of church are you?

Proverbs 20:27 KJV — The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Romans 8:16 KJV — The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

GOD Checked to see if the son of perdition was in them.

Matthew 18:2-4 KJV — And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 11:36 KJV — If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

Revelation 18:23 KJV — And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.