Preterism ends now ...but futurists are not right either

[SuperCow]

ok, let's pretend John was able to get This Book to 7 Churches in Asia Minor ...so uhh, you think every Christian at the time got to Read this Book before 70 A.D.? like ...for real?

I don't really have a strong opinion on the correct timing of events. I just point out some things to make sure the arguments are accurate. (Similarly, by this time period most Jews understood Greek, due to 300 years of on and off occupation, which I only point out to keep the arguments useful.) Anyway, I always thought that Revelation was written 95-98 AD, and only recently saw some compelling arguments towards the 65 AD timeline. That is not proof that full preterism is correct, but I was just suggesting that was a minimal requirement to even consider the pre-100 AD Revelation interpretation.

 

[David Kent]

Yes, we can know the date of Revelation's composition, going by various pieces of internal evidences from the book itself. It was written somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60, just before the AD 60 catastrophic earthquake in Laodicea.

What evidences? I keep hearing that but tell us what they are and we can examine them.

 

[David Kent]

The "First resurrection" of Rev. 20 was the "FIRST-fruits" - which included both "Christ the First-fruits", and the 144,000 "Firstfruits" (the Matthew 27:52-53 group). "First" means the FIRST resurrection event in time - namely, the one in AD 33. But only Christ out of this First-fruits group of bodily-resurrected individuals was able to ascend to heaven and to God's presence that day (earning Him the title of the "FIRST-begotten from the dead"). The rest of those "First-fruits" who had been made "alive" were to "remain" on the earth until AD 70.



That was the purpose for Paul writing in Romans 8:23 about the "First-fruits" whom the church still had among them at the time. Those bodily-resurrected 144,000 "First-fruits" had already obtained their glorified immortal bodies, but were still waiting on earth to be able to ascend to heaven in those resurrected bodies. In that sense, the completion of their salvation inheritance was still pending; that is, to be standing face-to-face in God's presence. It was never enough just to get above-ground in a glorified, immortal body. The fullness of our salvation experience is only completely realized when we have that changed, incorruptible body restored to intimate, face-to-face fellowship with our Creator.

No, they weren't the only blessed ones. Those in the next resurrection event who were Christ's at His coming were also blessed. As well as ourselves, who will also share in the blessing of a glorified, immortal body standing face-to-face with our Creator in the final resurrection.

Who was resurrected in AD70?

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

I don't really have a strong opinion on the correct timing of events. I just point out some things to make sure the arguments are accurate. (Similarly, by this time period most Jews understood Greek, due to 300 years of on and off occupation, which I only point out to keep the arguments useful.) Anyway, I always thought that Revelation was written 95-98 AD, and only recently saw some compelling arguments towards the 65 AD timeline. That is not proof that full preterism is correct, but I was just suggesting that was a minimal requirement to even consider the pre-100 AD Revelation interpretation.

Having history for some of It was what GOD Asked for ...John ate a Little Book in Chapter 10 ...what Book do you think that was? That means Chapter 10 was the present time.

[Revelation 1:19 KJV] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 

[3 Resurrections]

What evidences? I keep hearing that but tell us what they are and we can examine them.

To begin with, look at the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake which destroyed that city. John would not have been writing to a smug, self-satisfied church, confident in its own wealthy status, if it had been flattened by an earthquake prior to receiving John's letter to them. Revelation had to be written just before that AD 60 disaster struck the city of Laodicea. God had promised that He was "about to spue thee out of my mouth", which was a warning of this imminent AD 60 earthquake disaster. Remember, Christ had already told His disciples that there would be earthquakes "in divers places" in the years leading up to the "Days of vengeance".

Laodicea was but one of the multiple locations struck by an increase in seismic activity in those decades leading to AD 66-70. So much so, that Seneca the Younger, following a major AD 63 earthquake in Pompeii, included in his writings a section entitled "Concerning Earthquakes" to calm the rising panic of those citizens who were emigrating to zones which they thought would be free of earthquake turbulence.

The number "666" connected with the Sea Beast of Revelation 13 is also linked with the date of Revelation's composition. The Sea Beast (with its lion, bear, and leopard features) was a conglomerate mix of all the former Beast kingdoms of Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Greek kingdoms respectively. That means the Sea Beast was as old as the ancient Babylonian empire represented by the lion. Nebuchadnezzar as the Babylonian head of gold on Daniel's statue of a man had deported the very first group of nobility from Jerusalem in 607 BC, including Daniel. Six hundred and sixty six years later, John was writing Revelation, and telling his readers to "calculate" the number of the Sea Beast. This "calculation" was to count backward in time 666 years to the first humiliating deportation of Jerusalem's citizens, and the nation's shame in being subjected to the continuous control of those various pagan empires over those past 666 years, up until John's writing of Revelation somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60.

That's just to begin with, but there are more texts with time-relevant information that confirms an early date for Revelation's composition.

Who was resurrected in AD70?

Paul tells you in Acts 24:15 and 25. Paul was then on trial before Felix in AD 60, and testified, "... having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is ABOUT TO BE a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;"

A few days after that first appearance before Felix, Paul again was questioned about his faith. "And he reasoning concerning righteousness, and temperance, and THE JUDGMENT THAT IS ABOUT TO BE, Felix, having become afraid, answered, 'For the present be going, and having got time, I will call for thee.' " Why would Felix have become so afraid after this conversation with Paul if this particular resurrection of the dead and a judgment were going to be some 2,000 years or more in the future to his time?

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

To begin with, look at the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake which destroyed that city. John would not have been writing to a smug, self-satisfied church, confident in its own wealthy status, if it had been flattened by an earthquake prior to receiving John's letter to them. Revelation had to be written just before that AD 60 disaster struck the city of Laodicea. God had promised that He was "about to spue thee out of my mouth", which was a warning of this imminent AD 60 earthquake disaster. Remember, Christ had already told His disciples that there would be earthquakes "in divers places" in the years leading up to the "Days of vengeance".

Laodicea was but one of the multiple locations struck by an increase in seismic activity in those decades leading to AD 66-70. So much so, that Seneca the Younger, following a major AD 63 earthquake in Pompeii, included in his writings a section entitled "Concerning Earthquakes" to calm the rising panic of those citizens who were emigrating to zones which they thought would be free of earthquake turbulence.

The number "666" connected with the Sea Beast of Revelation 13 is also linked with the date of Revelation's composition. The Sea Beast (with its lion, bear, and leopard features) was a conglomerate mix of all the former Beast kingdoms of Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Greek kingdoms respectively. That means the Sea Beast was as old as the ancient Babylonian empire represented by the lion. Nebuchadnezzar as the Babylonian head of gold on Daniel's statue of a man had deported the very first group of nobility from Jerusalem in 607 BC, including Daniel. Six hundred and sixty six years later, John was writing Revelation, and telling his readers to "calculate" the number of the Sea Beast. This "calculation" was to count backward in time 666 years to the first humiliating deportation of Jerusalem's citizens, and the nation's shame in being subjected to the continuous control of those various pagan empires over those past 666 years, up until John's writing of Revelation somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60.

That's just to begin with, but there are more texts with time-relevant information that confirms an early date for Revelation's composition.

Paul tells you in Acts 24:15 and 25. Paul was then on trial before Felix in AD 60, and testified, "... having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is ABOUT TO BE a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;"

A few days after that first appearance before Felix, Paul again was questioned about his faith. "And he reasoning concerning righteousness, and temperance, and THE JUDGMENT THAT IS ABOUT TO BE, Felix, having become afraid, answered, 'For the present be going, and having got time, I will call for thee.' " Why would Felix have become so afraid after this conversation with Paul if this particular resurrection of the dead and a judgment were going to be some 2,000 years or more in the future to his time?

Laodicea didn't even ask rome for help after the quake ...lol ...so nice try

This was Telling us all along that THE RESURRECTION ended up being in Two parts:
[Revelation 20:5 KJV] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Laodicea didn't even ask rome for help after the quake ...lol ...so nice try

You're missing the point. God said He was ABOUT TO spue the Laodicean church out of His mouth in John's days. This was an impending judgment that was soon headed for the Laodicean church: i.e., the AD 60 earthquake that would level the city.

This was Telling us all along that THE RESURRECTION ended up being in Two parts:
[Revelation 20:5 KJV] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The "First resurrection" was the "First-fruits". It takes some real dodging to avoid calling Christ's resurrection that day the "First resurrection", (which included all the Matthew 27:52-53 saints). Christ is called the "First-fruits' in 1 Corinthians 15:20 & 23. The 144,000 are also called the "First-fruits unto God and the Lamb". These together formed the "First resurrection" that day in AD 33. Christ is also called the "First-born", and the "First-begotten from the dead". Plenty of "Firsts" so that we don't miss scripture's point about Christ's "First resurrection" event having the preeminence.

"The Greek word for the "REST of the dead" in Revelation 20:5 is "loipoi", meaning "remaining ones". That is exactly what the resurrected group of Matthew 27:52-53 saints did - they "remained" on the earth in their glorified bodies until the next resurrection event, when they would ascend to heaven together with the newly-resurrected saints and meet the Lord together in the air. Those "remaining ones" didn't come to life again in a resurrection process until the thousand years was finished and expired. John said that the event when they came to life again was called the "First resurrection" (which took place back in AD 33).

 

[SuperCow]

Having history for some of It was what GOD Asked for ...John ate a Little Book in Chapter 10 ...what Book do you think that was? That means Chapter 10 was the present time.

[Revelation 1:19 KJV] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I'm not sure what the book in chapter 10 is, but I'm open to your theory.

Your quote of Revelation 1:19 is valid, but reading the book in context, it's very easy to see how Revelation 1:1-18 is what "thou hast seen" (including his entire vision at that time). And then Revelation 1-3 regarding the seven churches (and perhaps chapters 4 & 5 as well), that would qualify as the things "which are". And the rest of the book (from chapter 6 on anyway) contains "the things which shall be hereafter".

The debate in this thread is about how long hereafter, and when hereafter begins.

 

[David Kent]

To begin with, look at the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake which destroyed that city. John would not have been writing to a smug, self-satisfied church, confident in its own wealthy status, if it had been flattened by an earthquake prior to receiving John's letter to them. Revelation had to be written just before that AD 60 disaster struck the city of Laodicea. God had promised that He was "about to spue thee out of my mouth", which was a warning of this imminent AD 60 earthquake disaster. Remember, Christ had already told His disciples that there would be earthquakes "in divers places" in the years leading up to the "Days of vengeance".

Laodicea was but one of the multiple locations struck by an increase in seismic activity in those decades leading to AD 66-70. So much so, that Seneca the Younger, following a major AD 63 earthquake in Pompeii, included in his writings a section entitled "Concerning Earthquakes" to calm the rising panic of those citizens who were emigrating to zones which they thought would be free of earthquake turbulence.

The number "666" connected with the Sea Beast of Revelation 13 is also linked with the date of Revelation's composition. The Sea Beast (with its lion, bear, and leopard features) was a conglomerate mix of all the former Beast kingdoms of Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Greek kingdoms respectively. That means the Sea Beast was as old as the ancient Babylonian empire represented by the lion. Nebuchadnezzar as the Babylonian head of gold on Daniel's statue of a man had deported the very first group of nobility from Jerusalem in 607 BC, including Daniel. Six hundred and sixty six years later, John was writing Revelation, and telling his readers to "calculate" the number of the Sea Beast. This "calculation" was to count backward in time 666 years to the first humiliating deportation of Jerusalem's citizens, and the nation's shame in being subjected to the continuous control of those various pagan empires over those past 666 years, up until John's writing of Revelation somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60.

That's just to begin with, but there are more texts with time-relevant information that confirms an early date for Revelation's composition.

Paul tells you in Acts 24:15 and 25. Paul was then on trial before Felix in AD 60, and testified, "... having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is ABOUT TO BE a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;"

A few days after that first appearance before Felix, Paul again was questioned about his faith. "And he reasoning concerning righteousness, and temperance, and THE JUDGMENT THAT IS ABOUT TO BE, Felix, having become afraid, answered, 'For the present be going, and having got time, I will call for thee.' " Why would Felix have become so afraid after this conversation with Paul if this particular resurrection of the dead and a judgment were going to be some 2,000 years or more in the future to his time?

The number 666 was nothing to do with dates, it was the number of man. Irenaeus thought the answer was Lateinos, the Latin man.

I don't see what Paul's defence in Acts 24:15 has anything to do with the date of Revelation which you misquoted. Even less so with verse 25. You are straining.
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

What exactly is your point here? Did He or did He not disclose that to Noah before the fact? Obviously, God didn't cause the flood to happen first then tell Noah after the fact---Btw, Noah, For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made. My bad, I should have told you before the fact rather than after the fact.

That's the point I basically see @SuperCow making, since I fully agree that prophecies are not prophecies unless they predict the future. And if Revelation was written after 70 AD, but that some of you allege much of it is in involving 70 AD, this would be an example of a prophecy not predicting the future if 70 AD is already in the past when Revelation is initially written. Therefore, totally useless if the idea is to warn someone in the first century about this upcoming 70 AD event, except when Revelation is initially written, 70 AD is already in the past.

I don't know if Revelation was written before 70 AD or after 70 AD. Obviously, no one today can know that for certain. Therefore, it's 50/50 odds that it was written before 70 AD and it is also 50/50 odds that it was written after 70 AD. Even if it was written before 70 AD, that alone hardly undeniably proves that any of the events recorded in Revelation are involving 70 AD.

We know that everything concerning the faith was delivered according to Jude, and therefore everything was given before Jude wrote his letter.
In Galatians, we can see what he was referring to by "the faith".
Jude
3: Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
In Galatians 3:28
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

We know that everything concerning the faith was delivered according to Jude, and therefore everything was given before Jude wrote his letter.
In Galatians, we can see what he was referring to by "the faith".
Jude
3: Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
In Galatians 3:28
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.

Are you saying they couldn't have FAITH before 70 A.D.? FAITH is Loyalty to The LORD.

[Galatians 3:23 NKJV] But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
[Galatians 3:24 NKJV] Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[Galatians 3:25 NKJV] But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
[Galatians 3:26 NKJV] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The number 666 was nothing to do with dates, it was the number of man. Irenaeus thought the answer was Lateinos, the Latin man.

Irenaeus was not infallible in his interpretations. He was guessing. The number 666 most definitely refers to a number of years. Even Luther caught this point in his Revelation comments, even though he assigned those 666 years to something other than the age of the Rev. 13 Sea Beast.

Yes, indeed, this 666 was "the number of a man". Read Daniel's description of the first "lion" Babylonian kingdom in Daniel 7:4 (which was included in the Sea Beast character in Revelation 13). "The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet AS A MAN, and A MAN'S HEART was given to it." Nebuchadnezzar was the head of this "lion" kingdom, which initiated the period of time when Israel became subjugated to four pagan empires for 666 years until John was writing Revelation in AD 59/60.

I don't see what Paul's defence in Acts 24:15 has anything to do with the date of Revelation which you misquoted.

I quoted the YLT verbatim. The KJV and other translations miss the significance of the "mello" term. Fortunately, the literal version translations don't miss it, and translate the meaning correctly. You had asked who would participate in the AD 70 resurrection. Paul speaking to Felix in Acts 24:15 informs you about who and when that resurrection would occur.

I can give you more internal evidences proving an early date , but it would probably be better served in a post dedicated to that theme alone.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Are you saying they couldn't have FAITH before 70 A.D.? FAITH is Loyalty to The LORD.

[Galatians 3:23 NKJV] But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
[Galatians 3:24 NKJV] Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[Galatians 3:25 NKJV] But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
[Galatians 3:26 NKJV] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

No, of course not. Abraham had faith and it was accounted to him as righteousness. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Therefore, "the faith" is the entirety of the word of God, and therefore when Jude says that "the faith" has once and for all been delivered to the saints, there is no more divine revelation coming. Just like Christ died once and for all, the scripture through which "the faith" is given has been delivered once and for all. That is my point, therefor "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" was given before Jude wrote his letter.

 

[David Kent]

Yes, indeed, this 666 was "the number of a man". Read Daniel's description of the first "lion" Babylonian kingdom in Daniel 7:4 (which was included in the Sea Beast character in Revelation 13). "The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet AS A MAN, and A MAN'S HEART was given to it." Nebuchadnezzar was the head of this "lion" kingdom, which initiated the period of time when Israel became subjugated to four pagan empires for 666 years until John was writing Revelation in AD 59/60.

How do you make that 666 years I make that only about 626-632 years.

 

[3 Resurrections]

How do you make that 666 years I make that only about 626-632 years.

Perhaps you might be counting from another deportation year. There were several of them, as we know from scripture. I'm referring to the first one in 607 BC when the "good figs" such as the nobility of Jerusalem, including young Daniel and his three friends, were deported to Nebuchadnezzar's court. That was 666 years until an AD 59/60 date of Revelation's composition when John's readers were to "calculate" that number of years backward from that point in time.

That humiliating exile to Babylon would have been branded in the minds of anyone who had the slightest memory of the history of the Jews. It would not have taken much "wisdom" for the average person to "calculate" the number of that Sea Beast and realize just which man (Nebuchadnezzar) had first begun the history of their nation being subjected to the control of that continuous succession of pagan empires over the past 666 years.

Even back in Nebuchadnezzar's day - that golden image that he set up for all to bow down and worship, and which Daniel's three friends refused to do so - this was only one of the first examples of homage demanded by the four empires which composed that Sea Beast. Each successive empire also demanded certain homage be given to it by the Jews. I'm sure you can think of several more cases of this from scripture.

 

[David Kent]

Perhaps you might be counting from another deportation year. There were several of them, as we know from scripture. I'm referring to the first one in 607 BC when the "good figs" such as the nobility of Jerusalem, including young Daniel and his three friends, were deported to Nebuchadnezzar's court. That was 666 years until an AD 59/60 date of Revelation's composition when John's readers were to "calculate" that number of years backward from that point in time.

That humiliating exile to Babylon would have been branded in the minds of anyone who had the slightest memory of the history of the Jews. It would not have taken much "wisdom" for the average person to "calculate" the number of that Sea Beast and realize just which man (Nebuchadnezzar) had first begun the history of their nation being subjected to the control of that continuous succession of pagan empires over the past 666 years.

Even back in Nebuchadnezzar's day - that golden image that he set up for all to bow down and worship, and which Daniel's three friends refused to do so - this was only one of the first examples of homage demanded by the four empires which composed that Sea Beast. Each successive empire also demanded certain homage be given to it by the Jews. I'm sure you can think of several more cases of this from scripture.

No I worked it out from the bible. 70 years from Nebuchadnezza 1st deportation till Cyrus. 490 years from Cyrus letting the Jews return till the anointing of the Messiah Daniel 9, Jesus was anointed aged 30, say AD 23- 26 till ad 95- 96 maximum 40 +490 +70 that's 600 years maximum.

If you use the AD 60 that would be 36 years less.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No I worked it out from the bible. 70 years from Nebuchadnezza 1st deportation till Cyrus. 490 years from Cyrus letting the Jews return till the anointing of the Messiah Daniel 9, Jesus was anointed aged 30, say AD 23- 26 till ad 95- 96 maximum 40 +490 +70 that's 600 years maximum.

There are some errors in your 70-week prophecy dates. You have the wrong year and the wrong monarch who issued the particular decree which started the 490 years, and probably the wrong year for the beginning of Christ's miraculous ministry ending in His crucifixion mid-week of the 70th week. In any case, the beginning of the ancient Sea Beast's existence is not affected by the dates of the 70 week prophecy chronologically, so it's really a moot point.

 

[David Kent]

There are some errors in your 70-week prophecy dates. You have the wrong decree year which started the 490 years.

Oh who do you think made the decree?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Oh who do you think made the decree?

The only monarch who took the original decree of Cyrus and added provisions for building the wall and the street in front of the temple, which was done "even in troublous times" (Daniel 9:25). This particular decree was by Artaxerxes 1 in the 20th year of his reign in 454 BC (the Nehemiah 2:7-9 letters of authorization given to Nehemiah from the king.)

 

[David Kent]

The only monarch who took the original decree of Cyrus and added provisions for building the wall and the street in front of the temple, which was done "even in troublous times" (Daniel 9:25). This particular decree was by Artaxerxes 1 in the 20th year of his reign in 454 BC (the Nehemiah 2:7-9 letters of authorization given to Nehemiah from the king.)

Wrong. Daniel doesn't refer to anyone making the decree. Is says the "Going forth of the command" ie the publishing it. It was God who made the command and Cyrus published it.

Ezra 1:2 Thus says Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah.

Isaiah 44:28 Who says of Cyrus, ‘He is My shepherd, And he shall perform all My pleasure, Saying to Jerusalem, “You shall be built,” And to the temple, “Your foundation shall be laid.” ’

Nehemiah was one of the leading Jews who returned under Cyrus, and it the Artaxerxes 1 was the link, then Nehemiah would have been at least 155 when he rode round the walls. Nehemiah only repaired the walls didn't build the city.

Daniel gives 7 weeks, 49 years for the city and walls to be built.
Daniel 9:25b There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. 49 years from Cyrus will end near the end of Darius reign.