Preterism ends now ...but futurists are not right either

[David Kent]

Yes, we can know the date of Revelation's composition, going by various pieces of internal evidences from the book itself. It was written somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60, just before the AD 60 catastrophic earthquake in Laodicea.

Not what historical testimonies say.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Not what historical testimonies say.

The internal evidence of scripture itself should actually take precedence over any external testimony, don't you think?. And all of the internal evidence of Revelation combined pins down the date of Revelation to a narrow window of time between late AD 59 and early AD 60.

And we actually do have external testimony that John was sent to the island of Patmos while Nero was in power. Try looking for the Syriac version of the NT, the "Aramaic Peshitta" version, with the title page saying that Revelation was written during the reign of Nero. Also the "Muratorian fragment" stating the same. Also the "Monarchian Prologues" from AD 250-350 which has some of Paul's epistles (all of them written before his AD 67 martyrdom) being written following Revelation's composition. Try googling biblicaleschatology.org, with an article about the Syriac version entitled "Research insights into the Date of Revelation, Part IV". The actual text of the title page of the Syriac Peshitta concerning Nero can be found if you need the quote exactly.

 

[parousia70]

No, future to the writer, not to us.

Ok, So your argument Hinges on the Date of the penning of the Revelation then, right?

If written before 70 AD then you have no objection to a 70AD fulfillment being "future to the writer", correct?

 

[SuperCow]

Ok, So your argument Hinges on the Date of the penning of the Revelation then, right?

If written before 70 AD then you have no objection to a 70AD fulfillment being "future to the writer", correct?

I would say before 66 AD (the first arrival of the Roman army that was abandoned), but in general you are correct. The base logic of the fulfillment at least can then have merit. The secondary argument then goes to mapping the fulfillment to the prophecy, and in Revelation's case mapping the metaphorical imagery to history.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

I would say before 66 AD (the first arrival of the Roman army that was abandoned), but in general you are correct. The base logic of the fulfillment at least can then have merit. The secondary argument then goes to mapping the fulfillment to the prophecy, and in Revelation's case mapping the metaphorical imagery to history.

JESUS Wrote to Seven Churches at the Beginning of Rev ...only 7 ...think about that. They were obviously an example for us afterwards.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

70 A.D. is in Chapter 11 ...the rest of the Book after that Chapter is about catholics and protestants ruining everything.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

Yes, we can know the date of Revelation's composition, going by various pieces of internal evidences from the book itself. It was written somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60, just before the AD 60 catastrophic earthquake in Laodicea.

no, this is all impossible. None of them had the NT ...Paul wrote Epistles so a single church had a Book of It ...there is no way anyone Read Revelation before 70 A.D. ...you probably also have nonsense about It being Written to Jews ...when It wasn't Written in Hebrew.

 

[3 Resurrections]

no, this is all impossible. None of them had the NT ...Paul wrote Epistles so a single church had a Book of It ...there is no way anyone Read Revelation before 70 A.D. ...you probably also have nonsense about It being Written to Jews ...when It wasn't Written in Hebrew.

I have over the years compiled a list of all the internal evidences of Revelation which points to this AD 59/60 composition. Revelation was circulated among the seven churches of Asia, rather like a chain letter on a circular postal route. There was time from AD 59/60 and forward for those in the seven churches to consider John's Revelation material before the Great Tribulation events began to transpire in AD 66. And no, not all those John was writing to in the seven churches of Asia were Jews. John said that the "hour of tribulation" was "about to come upon all the world". This would have affected more than just the Jews alone, though they were going to receive the brunt of the "Days of Vengeance" for being the "betrayers and murderers" of Christ.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

Does this have anything to do with the 666 number calculation? Or what I was saying about it being 666 years? Daniel's statue was crushed to dust on the wind almost 2,000 years ago, and Christ's stone kingdom has been incrementally increasing in the world since then.

Your date of 597 BC for one of Nebuchadnezzar's deportations is not the date of the FIRST deportation of what God in Jeremiah called "the good figs" - Daniel and his three friends and those of Jerusalem's nobility. The year for Nebuchadnezzar's FIRST deportation of Jews was 607 BC, which was 666 years before John was writing Revelation.

Revelation is not one long chronological account from beginning to end. John writes Revelation in a repetitive pattern, covering the same time period several times over, as well as including historical information - even ancient history - as a backdrop for the events that were soon to transpire in his days.

and fyi, the number of the beast is 616. people think they can use JESUS' Dead Corpse to replace themselves on their own Cross.

Papyrus 115 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

[1 John 2:1 KJV] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

I have over the years compiled a list of all the internal evidences of Revelation which points to this AD 59/60 composition. Revelation was circulated among the seven churches of Asia, rather like a chain letter on a circular postal route. There was time from AD 59/60 and forward for those in the seven churches to consider John's Revelation material before the Great Tribulation events began to transpire in AD 66. And no, not all those John was writing to in the seven churches of Asia were Jews. John said that the "hour of tribulation" was "about to come upon all the world". This would have affected more than just the Jews alone, though they were going to receive the brunt of the "Days of Vengeance" for being the "betrayers and murderers" of Christ.

lol, you are saying Paul read Revelation then ...and didn't Mention It in anything he Wrote.
The Letters of Rev were Written to Church Angels.

 

[3 Resurrections]

lol, you are saying Paul read Revelation then ...and didn't Mention It in anything he Wrote.

What makes you think that Paul did not refer to anything from Revelation? You aren't looking carefully enough. Peter wrote that in all of Paul's epistles, he had covered some things about eschatology that were "hard to be understood" - just as Revelation's cryptic language is also hard to be understood.

Try the subject of the lascivious "doctrine of Balaam" which is a topic common to both Paul's and Peter's epistles and to Revelation. Revelation predicted a judgment for those following the "doctrine of Balaam", and this judgment written about earlier in Revelation was about to fall on them in the time the epistles were written.

Try Paul's references to "the last trumpet", which is alluding to John's former writing about Revelation's 7 trumpets.

And I'm sure you will disagree with this point, but the author of Revelation personally traveled and ministered with Paul; namely, the beloved Barnabas, which nickname of "Barnabas" was one of the aliases that the author of Revelation adopted for a very specific reason.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

What makes you think that Paul did not refer to anything from Revelation? You aren't looking carefully enough. Peter wrote that in all of Paul's epistles, he had covered some things about eschatology that were "hard to be understood" - just as Revelation's cryptic language is also hard to be understood.

Try the subject of the lascivious "doctrine of Balaam" which is a topic common to both Paul's and Peter's epistles and to Revelation. Revelation predicted a judgment for those following the "doctrine of Balaam", and this judgment written about earlier in Revelation was about to fall on them in the time the epistles were written.

Try Paul's references to "the last trumpet", which is alluding to John's former writing about Revelation's 7 trumpets.

And I'm sure you will disagree with this point, but the author of Revelation personally traveled and ministered with Paul; namely, the beloved Barnabas, which nickname of "Barnabas" was one of the aliases that the author of Revelation adopted for a very specific reason.

They didn't have The Gospel Written down either, but there is This:
[Matthew 24:31 KJV] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

John Said he Wrote Rev from prison ...what makes you think romans let him send letters to anyone?

 

[3 Resurrections]

John Said he Wrote Rev from prison ...what makes you think romans let him send letters to anyone?

Not exactly. John never wrote that he was in prison. He said that he was simply "IN the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus." If John had freedom of access to writing materials on that island, why would he not have been able to disperse those writings? Even by means of the angel who gave John those visions?

"The word of God is not bound". If God could physically remove Peter from prison right past the noses of the guards that one night in the book of Acts, why could not John have been able by God's assistance to get His written visions sent to the 7 churches? Those were miraculous times, as we all know.

 

[SuperCow]

Paul was able to write from prison in Rome. Timothy was allowed to visit and deliver his letters.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

Paul was able to write from prison in Rome. Timothy was allowed to visit and deliver his letters.

ok, let's pretend John was able to get This Book to 7 Churches in Asia Minor ...so uhh, you think every Christian at the time got to Read this Book before 70 A.D.? like ...for real?

 

[3 Resurrections]

ok, let's pretend John was able to get This Book to 7 Churches in Asia Minor ...so uhh, you think every Christian at the time got to Read this Book before 70 A.D.? like ...for real?

Paul's evangelistic efforts were able to reach everyone in Asia by the time Acts 19:10 was written. This in spite of having no internet.

Also, don't forget, there was an indestructible force of 144,000 resurrected First-fruits saints (raised from Jewish graves around Jerusalem in Matthew 27:52-53) who were not bound with the normal limitations of ordinary men. Just how much evangelistic ground do you imagine just one resurrected saint could have covered in those days between AD 59/60 when Revelation was written until AD 66 when the Great Tribulation cranked up? Billy Graham's evangelistic efforts would have paled in comparison. And there were 144,000 of these indestructible, immortal individuals who would never get sick or die again, get tired, succumb to temptation, or have family obligations such as children or a wife to attend to. Conceivably, everyone in the entire world could have heard a gospel presentation from one of these 144,000 First-fruits resurrected individuals by the time AD 70 rolled around.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

Paul's evangelistic efforts were able to reach everyone in Asia by the time Acts 19:10 was written. This in spite of having no internet.

Also, don't forget, there was an indestructible force of 144,000 resurrected First-fruits saints (raised from Jewish graves around Jerusalem in Matthew 27:52-53) who were not bound with the normal limitations of ordinary men. Just how much evangelistic ground do you imagine just one resurrected saint could have covered in those days between AD 59/60 when Revelation was written until AD 66 when the Great Tribulation cranked up? Billy Graham's evangelistic efforts would have paled in comparison. And there were 144,000 of these indestructible, immortal individuals who would never get sick or die again, get tired, succumb to temptation, or have family obligations such as children or a wife to attend to. Conceivably, everyone in the entire world could have heard a gospel presentation from one of these 144,000 First-fruits resurrected individuals by the time AD 70 rolled around.

good grief dude, The First Resurrection of Rev 20 is The Resurrection of The Just ...no zombies ...It was people starting to become what 1 Cor 15 Describes. satan was bound from the Heavenly Courts. but people were still free to eat from the tree of knowledge and make their own definitions of good and evil. THE RESURRECTION is in two parts ...The Just were the first part ...then you have a long period of time of them becoming Adopted ...The Thousand Years didn't start in Chapter 20 ...more like 12.

 

[3 Resurrections]

good grief dude, The First Resurrection of Rev 20 is The Resurrection of The Just ...no zombies ...It was people starting to become what 1 Cor 15 Describes

I agree with you. That is exactly what the resurrection in Matthew 27:52-53 involved - the bodily resurrection of nothing but 144,000 "First-fruits" saints, raised to a changed, immortal, incorruptible life on the very same day as Christ's resurrection. That resurrection event was the "First resurrection", to be followed by another which would include both the just and the unjust in a judgment, as Paul told Felix was about to happen (Acts 24:15 & 25).

The Thousand Years didn't start in Chapter 20 ...more like 12.

I agree with this too. The literal Thousand years started in Rev. 12, but they ENDED with the "First resurrection" in AD 33 involving "Christ the First-fruits" and the 144,000 "First-fruits" (the Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected group). That group was the Rev. 20 "remnant of the dead" that came to life again when the thousand years had finished and expired.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

I agree with you. That is exactly what the resurrection in Matthew 27:52-53 involved - the bodily resurrection of nothing but 144,000 "First-fruits" saints, raised to a changed, immortal, incorruptible life on the very same day as Christ's resurrection. That resurrection event was the "First resurrection", to be followed by another which would include both the just and the unjust in a judgment, as Paul told Felix was about to happen (Acts 24:15 & 25).

I agree with this too. The literal Thousand years started in Rev. 12, but they ENDED with the "First resurrection" in AD 33 involving "Christ the First-fruits" and the 144,000 "First-fruits" (the Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected group). That group was the Rev. 20 "remnant of the dead" that came to life again when the thousand years had finished and expired.

There isn't a Secondary Resurrection of The Just. The First Resurrection of Rev 20 was 70 A.D. ...they could finally be Redeemed.

[Romans 8:23 KJV] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Only those in the First Resurrection are Blessed.

[Revelation 20:6 KJV] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[3 Resurrections]

There isn't a Secondary Resurrection of The Just. The First Resurrection of Rev 20 was 70 A.D. ...they could finally be Redeemed.

The "First resurrection" of Rev. 20 was the "FIRST-fruits" - which included both "Christ the First-fruits", and the 144,000 "Firstfruits" (the Matthew 27:52-53 group). "First" means the FIRST resurrection event in time - namely, the one in AD 33. But only Christ out of this First-fruits group of bodily-resurrected individuals was able to ascend to heaven and to God's presence that day (earning Him the title of the "FIRST-begotten from the dead"). The rest of those "First-fruits" who had been made "alive" were to "remain" on the earth until AD 70.

[Romans 8:23 KJV] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

That was the purpose for Paul writing in Romans 8:23 about the "First-fruits" whom the church still had among them at the time. Those bodily-resurrected 144,000 "First-fruits" had already obtained their glorified immortal bodies, but were still waiting on earth to be able to ascend to heaven in those resurrected bodies. In that sense, the completion of their salvation inheritance was still pending; that is, to be standing face-to-face in God's presence. It was never enough just to get above-ground in a glorified, immortal body. The fullness of our salvation experience is only completely realized when we have that changed, incorruptible body restored to intimate, face-to-face fellowship with our Creator.

Only those in the First Resurrection are Blessed.

No, they weren't the only blessed ones. Those in the next resurrection event who were Christ's at His coming were also blessed. As well as ourselves, who will also share in the blessing of a glorified, immortal body standing face-to-face with our Creator in the final resurrection.