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Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

claninja

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It is impossible communicating with you because you do not listen or address the counter arguments. That is why you refuse to budge when your views are exposed. It is a pointless endeavor.

My last post rebuts this.



1.) Your last post presupposes Christ spoke about 2 events separated by thousands of years. He did not. His context was “not one stone upon another”, as evidenced by - this generation will not pass away until all these things occur.

“3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30;” - thayers Greek lexicon

And evidenced by - if one believes the great tribulation of Matthew is about the destruction of Jerusalem, well, the powers of heaven are shaken “immediately” afterward


Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.”

2.) Your last post glaringly ignores the parallel passages of Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7. If one believes the Olivet Discourses in mark 13 and Luke 21 are parallel, then “the SIGN of your coming and end of the age” = “the SIGN when these things will be fulfilled”, in the same way that the AOD from Matthew parallels Luke’s armies surrounding Jerusalem. The sign of your coming and end of the age is no different than say the sign when these things will be accomplished.

3.) your last post ignores the fact that the author of Hebrews said that BOTH the old covenant was “near” vanishing and Christs coming was in a little while without delay - thus further evidence that the first century believers did not believe the temple destruction was a multi-thousand year separate event from Christs coming. I would be interested if you could post evidence where any NT author believed the destruction of the temple was near but Christs coming was thousands of years away?

4.) you never addressed “saved” being the same Greek word in Matthew 24:13 and Matthew 24:22. In one instance you believe “saved” refers to the end of the world - Matthew 24:13. However, in another instance you included “no flesh being saved if those days had not been cut short” to the destruction of Jerusalem - Matthew 24:22.
 
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Truth7t7

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You’ve made the claim that it’s a literal, visible second coming. That’s eisegesis. You have to understand the Old Testament imagery that Jesus used, and that His audience would be familiar with. Coming on the clouds is judgement language. See, for instance, Isaiah 19:1.

And then, to top it off, we have this:

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

So we know this all has to happen within 40 years of Jesus stating this.
I Disagree, Matthew 24:30 below is a literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds seen throughout the Holy Bible, to many verses to reference

It turns into "symbolic allegory" for reformed preterist eschatology, because it's problematic to their teaching, can't have a 70AD great tribulation and Jesus returning immediately after "Oops", so they remove it with one wave of the magic wand "Gone" in the words

"Jesus is Coming on the clouds in symbolic judgement" it's not a literal, visible, second coming

Reformed Preterist Eschatology In 70AD Fulfillment Is Wrong, Just As Dispensationalism's Pre-Trib Rapute Is Wrong

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
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Truth7t7

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Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

So we know this all has to happen within 40 years of Jesus stating this.
Jesus spoke about events that would take place during the great tribulation and prior to his coming "This Generation" is the future generation that will be actual eyewitnesses of the literal events
 
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DavidPT

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4.) you never addressed “saved” being the same Greek word in Matthew 24:13 and Matthew 24:22. In one instance you believe “saved” refers to the end of the world - Matthew 24:13. However, in another instance you included “no flesh being saved if those days had not been cut short” to the destruction of Jerusalem - Matthew 24:22.

That's a good point. I don't agree with @sovereigngrace interpretation of Mathew 24:15-21 to begin with though I do agree with his interpretation of Matthew 24:30. It is not reasonable to have a gap of thousands of years between the events involving verses 15-21 and verse 30. Verse 29 makes it undeniably clear that the coming recorded in verse 30 is not still thousands of years away at this point, but that it is literally at the doors as of immediately after the tribulation of those days, obviously referring to verses 15-26.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


What do some interpreters think 'immediately after' means if not exactly what it says? One can't have verses 15-21 meaning thousands of years earlier then have verses 29-30 meaning thousand of years later. Jesus was very careful with His words here, not careless instead, thus why He made it a point to say 'immediately after', so that way no one can get confused and think verses 15-21 are involving an era of time verse 30 is not involving. Except some interpreters didn't get the clue, thus have verses 15-21 involving an era of time verse 30 isn't. IOW, verses 15-21 involving an era of time thousands of years earlier while verse 30 is involving an era of time thousands of years later. Totally ludricrous that that could be the case, based on what verse 29 records.

But instead of interpreters such as @sovereigngrace agreeing with the text and Jesus throughout, they instead want to agree with Preterists concerning verses 15-21, thus disagree with the text and Jesus since those events are not involving 70 AD to begin with, for one, proved via verse 29, and then want to agree with the text and Jesus when it comes to verse 30, though. When everyone else, including Preterists, are being consistent with their interpretations. Everyone else has the coming recorded in verse 30 involving the same era of time verses 15-21 are involving, and not a gap of thousands of years between those events instead.

I don't know how @sovereigngrace and other interpreters such as him, and hopefully there are not too many more like him, meaning in regards to verses 15-30, can possibly think they can convince Preterists they are correct about verse 30 when they are making utter nonsense of verse 29 which is then undeniably referring to verses 15-21 when Jesus said the tribulation of those days, by applying that to 2000 years ago then applying verse 30 to thousands of years later?
 
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seekingHiswisdom

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Agreed that Matthew 24's great tribulation and the Second Coming is in the distant future long after Preterism's fantasy with 70AD, but this only has to do with the new testament congregation according to God's Word, not national Israel as premillennialists believe.

See, the Bible is ancient literature like no other ancient literature. It's not to be understood or exegeted like the rest, nor can it be evaluated like the rest. It is a unique book in that it is God-breathed in every word, and perfectly authoritative truth profitable for instruction.

2nd Timothy 3:16-17
  • "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
  • That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
Josephus is NOT profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness. Even by most historians' own admission, Josephus was NOT an "unbiased" man in his writings. We should know that NO extra-biblical writing is authoritative or profitable for interpreting God's Word. Period!

So is this man named Josephus who we want to decide how we interpret God's Word? Ha! I think NOT! If we get our interpretations from him, we have gotten a "private extra-biblical interpretation" of man and not from God. If we get our interpretation from God's Word ALONE, then we have gotten it from God.

Genesis 40:8
  • "And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you."
Interpretations belong to God, not Josephus. Not Dave Hunt. Not Jack Van Impe. Not me, nor you! And the only way to get them from God, is to get them from His Word. That's about as clear as it can get. What is our divine authority on understanding prophecy? God's word or man's evaluations?

Before the first Advent of Christ the Old Testament thoroughly furnished men with truth unto all good works. The combined Old and New Testaments thoroughly furnish the saints today unto all good works. We don't need the non-christian historians to tell us about how 70 AD is fulfilling anything, we have the Word of God to tell us how things are fulfilled. Let us hear it speak. You need to understand that the Bible is not to be interpreted by secular writers, historical findings, the views of Josephus, or historical records to fill in the "so-called" gaps. God is not a God that leaves gaps to be filled in by men who are not even Christian. Interpretations belong to God, not secular writers and historians. Again:
  • The Bible is it's own Interpreter
  • The Bible is it's own Dictionary
  • The Bible is it's own Historical Record
That is to say, only the mind of God can explain/interpret what God meant when He said something in parables (Genesis 40:8; 41:16) or had written the books of Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, or Matthew. He does that by His Spirit, through His Holy Word, not through archaeologists or carnal writers. We have a sound mind in interpreting "by" having the testimony of the Word of God alone as our proofs of what we are suggesting is true. When God says prove all things, He's not talking about asking secular writers or Godless historians.
What you say is 100% correct.

We need to rely on the bible and not outside interpretations or explanations.

But here is the rub. You have been on this forum long enough, and I have been while a short time here, on others for a very long time.

There ARE NO solid consensuses among members, no matter where one is, that reads the same thing within the four corners of God's Holy word and comes away a total agreement of the meaning of what they have read.

In my opinion and mine only this is due to varied congregations and what has been taught from their churches' founding fathers carried down through the ages.

Example: My Presbyterian roots... go back to John Calvin. After much personal study I do not hold with his teachings. I wish I did... it could make life so much easier....

Even the four gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John differ in the telling of who went to the Tomb following Passover.

The Gospels refer to different times and name different women who arrived at the tomb. Matthew states that “Mary Magdalene and the other Mary” came to the tomb as it “began to dawn” (Matthew 28:1). Mark adds Salome to the group and claims that they came “very early in the morning” (Mark 16:1–2). Luke agrees that it was “very early in the morning” and names “Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women” as those who came to the tomb (Luke 24:1, 24:10). John wrote that “Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark” (John 20:1).

Now, here were 4 accounts from people who live at the same time... and even they cannot agree?

Okay.. I'll stop with a final... YES, you are 100% correct about outside sources...

But personally I think reading what outside sources have to say can truly clarify a lot.
 
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Hammster

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I Disagree, Matthew 24:30 below is a literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds seen throughout the Holy Bible, to many verses to reference
No there isn’t.
It turns into "symbolic allegory" for reformed preterist eschatology, because it's problematic to their teaching, can't have a 70AD great tribulation and Jesus returning immediately after "Oops", so they remove it with one wave of the magic wand "Gone" in the words
No, it shows that His audience was familiar with OT imagery.
"Jesus is Coming on the clouds in symbolic judgement" it's not a literal, visible, second coming

Reformed Preterist Eschatology In 70AD Fulfillment Is Wrong, Just As Dispensationalism's Pre-Trib Rapute Is Wrong

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
In that generation.
 
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Hammster

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Jesus spoke about events that would take place during the great tribulation and prior to his coming "This Generation" is the future generation that will be actual eyewitnesses of the literal events
Except it doesn’t say that. You have to do violence to the text to get it to say that. To prove this, see how Jesus uses “this generation” elsewhere. It always refers to the generation He’s talking to.
 
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DavidPT

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Except it doesn’t say that. You have to do violence to the text to get it to say that. To prove this, see how Jesus uses “this generation” elsewhere. It always refers to the generation He’s talking to.

While some of the rest of us tend to think context generally determines what something is meaning. I don't know why Preterists wouldn't think the same? Maybe because it proves their position wrong in this case? Which is better, though? Being right at the expense of being proven wrong? Or being wrong while thinking you are right?

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


What is the context the following verses are involving, since it is obviously the same context verse 34 is involving?

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


As if it is remotely reasonable, for example, that verse 36 could be referring to 70 AD. As if that day somehow trumps His bodily return in the end of this age, that 70 AD was far more important than His bodily return in the end of this age is. So vastly superior to His bodily return in the end of this age that Jesus described this at the time, the future events of 70 AD, as such---But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. That clearly sounds like something that fits His bodily return in the end of this age, not something having to do with 70 AD instead. Jesus was not all over the place here, where one minute He is meaning 70 AD(verse 34), then the next minute He is meaning the literal end of this present age(verse 35 and 36).

Believe what you will. Ignore context in the process since it is apparently unimportant in this case otherwise Preterists would be interpreting verse 34 in light of verse 35 and 36 and what that context is involving.
 
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Timtofly

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So we know this all has to happen within 40 years of Jesus stating this.
And that is eisegesis. You also claim 40 years means something not given in the text.

40 years may represent a time of judgement. But not what Jesus was even implying.
 
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Hammster

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While some of the rest of us tend to think context generally determines what something is meaning. I don't know why Preterists wouldn't think the same? Maybe because it proves their position wrong in this case? Which is better, though? Being right at the expense of being proven wrong? Or being wrong while thinking you are right?

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


What is the context the following verses are involving, since it is obviously the same context verse 34 is involving?

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


As if it is remotely reasonable, for example, that verse 36 could be referring to 70 AD. As if that day somehow trumps His bodily return in the end of this age, that 70 AD was far more important than His bodily return in the end of this age is. So vastly superior to His bodily return in the end of this age that Jesus described this at the time, the future events of 70 AD, as such---But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. That clearly sounds like something that fits His bodily return in the end of this age, not something having to do with 70 AD instead. Jesus was not all over the place here, where one minute He is meaning 70 AD(verse 34), then the next minute He is meaning the literal end of this present age(verse 35 and 36).

Believe what you will. Ignore context in the process since it is apparently unimportant in this case otherwise Preterists would be interpreting verse 34 in light of verse 35 and 36 and what that context is involving.
You aren’t deriving the use from the text. You are already assuming the conclusion, and then making it say something to fit your position. So again, look at how Jesus uses “this generation”. It always means the generation He’s talking to.
 
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Hammster

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And that is eisegesis. You also claim 40 years means something not given in the text.

40 years may represent a time of judgement. But not what Jesus was even implying.
It is what He said. Jews reckoned a generation as 40 years. And that’s the timeframe of the destruction of the temple.
 
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3 Resurrections

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Please explain when Matthew 24:29-30 in the literal,, visible,, second coming seen below, took place in the first century?

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
This was the same prediction that Zechariah chapters 12:1 through Zechariah 14:15 gave to Israel concerning "the siege both against Juda and Jerusalem" which from Zechariah's perspective would come in the AD 66-70 period. The tribes were going to be mourning then when they saw Christ bodily returning to the Mount of Olives.
 
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Timtofly

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It is what He said. Jews reckoned a generation as 40 years. And that’s the timeframe of the destruction of the temple.
No they don't. There is no Scripture nor historical reference to a generation being 40 years. David in Psalms states a generation is 70 to 80 years. Psalms 90:10

"The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away."

Like you said your presupposition is the 40 years between this and that. You cannot even see 70 AD ever mentioned in Scripture as fulfillment of prophecy. Most people even claim the Cross happened in 33AD. That is only 37 years.
 
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claninja

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That's a good point. I don't agree with @sovereigngrace interpretation of Mathew 24:15-21 to begin with though I do agree with his interpretation of Matthew 24:30. It is not reasonable to have a gap of thousands of years between the events involving verses 15-21 and verse 30. Verse 29 makes it undeniably clear that the coming recorded in verse 30 is not still thousands of years away at this point, but that it is literally at the doors as of immediately after the tribulation of those days, obviously referring to verses 15-26.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


What do some interpreters think 'immediately after' means if not exactly what it says? One can't have verses 15-21 meaning thousands of years earlier then have verses 29-30 meaning thousand of years later. Jesus was very careful with His words here, not careless instead, thus why He made it a point to say 'immediately after', so that way no one can get confused and think verses 15-21 are involving an era of time verse 30 is not involving. Except some interpreters didn't get the clue, thus have verses 15-21 involving an era of time verse 30 isn't. IOW, verses 15-21 involving an era of time thousands of years earlier while verse 30 is involving an era of time thousands of years later. Totally ludricrous that that could be the case, based on what verse 29 records.

But instead of interpreters such as @sovereigngrace agreeing with the text and Jesus throughout, they instead want to agree with Preterists concerning verses 15-21, thus disagree with the text and Jesus since those events are not involving 70 AD to begin with, for one, proved via verse 29, and then want to agree with the text and Jesus when it comes to verse 30, though. When everyone else, including Preterists, are being consistent with their interpretations. Everyone else has the coming recorded in verse 30 involving the same era of time verses 15-21 are involving, and not a gap of thousands of years between those events instead.

I don't know how @sovereigngrace and other interpreters such as him, and hopefully there are not too many more like him, meaning in regards to verses 15-30, can possibly think they can convince Preterists they are correct about verse 30 when they are making utter nonsense of verse 29 which is then undeniably referring to verses 15-21 when Jesus said the tribulation of those days, by applying that to 2000 years ago then applying verse 30 to thousands of years later?

While we may disagree on the timing, I agree, it is difficult to place a multi thousand year gap into the OD when there is no indication grammatically.
 
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claninja

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While some of the rest of us tend to think context generally determines what something is meaning. I don't know why Preterists wouldn't think the same? Maybe because it proves their position wrong in this case? Which is better, though? Being right at the expense of being proven wrong? Or being wrong while thinking you are right?

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


What is the context the following verses are involving, since it is obviously the same context verse 34 is involving?

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


As if it is remotely reasonable, for example, that verse 36 could be referring to 70 AD. As if that day somehow trumps His bodily return in the end of this age, that 70 AD was far more important than His bodily return in the end of this age is. So vastly superior to His bodily return in the end of this age that Jesus described this at the time, the future events of 70 AD, as such---But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. That clearly sounds like something that fits His bodily return in the end of this age, not something having to do with 70 AD instead. Jesus was not all over the place here, where one minute He is meaning 70 AD(verse 34), then the next minute He is meaning the literal end of this present age(verse 35 and 36).

Believe what you will. Ignore context in the process since it is apparently unimportant in this case otherwise Preterists would be interpreting verse 34 in light of verse 35 and 36 and what that context is involving.

What is the context? It’s found at the beginning of the chapter: the disciples were admiring the temple buildings. Jesus said “do you see these things? not one stone would be standing upon another”. The disciples then wanted to know when this would happen.

so did the temple fall within their generation? Yup, sure did. No way around that.

You also pointed out the parable of the fig tree - so also when you see these things know he is near, at the very door.

Are there any epistles that declare Christ’s coming had come near and that the he was at the door?

What would you say the context of the OD is? And where would you find this context?
 
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claninja

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The consummation wasn't actually the end, but it was the temple destruction in 70AD Jerusalem that was the end, and we are living, breathing, and writing, presently about the end, that has already taken place as we await the end

Do you really believe you have sold that story to the reader?

Correct, the end refers to the end of temple practices, as the context of the Olivet discourse is fall of the temple - not one stone will stand upon another.
 
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Hammster

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No they don't. There is no Scripture nor historical reference to a generation being 40 years. David in Psalms states a generation is 70 to 80 years. Psalms 90:10

"The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away."

Like you said your presupposition is the 40 years between this and that. You cannot even see 70 AD ever mentioned in Scripture as fulfillment of prophecy. Most people even claim the Cross happened in 33AD. That is only 37 years.
That’s age, not generation. And nobody has argued that it had to be an exact 40 years.
 
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TribulationSigns

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What is the context? It’s found at the beginning of the chapter: the disciples were admiring the temple buildings. Jesus said “do you see these things? not one stone would be standing upon another”. The disciples then wanted to know when this would happen.

so did the temple fall within their generation? Yup, sure did. No way around that.

You also pointed out the parable of the fig tree - so also when you see these things know he is near, at the very door.

Are there any epistles that declare Christ’s coming had come near and that the he was at the door?

What would you say the context of the OD is? And where would you find this context?

First, the falling of the temple in Matthew 24:1-2 has to go with the fall of Old Testament congregation. Not a physical temple. The disciples did think it was physical before they were filled with Holy Spirit and understood what Christ actually talked about. It was the temple that fell and He rebuilt it in 3 days. It has to do with stones of PEOPLE, not literal stones. After Christ said that old Testament congregation (which the temple of his body represents) fell, then he prophesied the rest about His New Testament Congregation during the great tribulation near the end.

And many of you got the generation part all misunderstood. The generation in Matthew 24, for example, has nothing to do with the lifespan of the hearer. Rather Christ is talking about family - a spiritual family - a kindred of Satan.

See there are ONLY TWO GENERATION OR FAMILIES on Earth. They are contrasting and distinct seeds. If you remember God Himself spoke of them in the Garden of Eden, and the enmity He declared would be between them. The children of God and the children of the Devil are two diverse and distinct generations or families from these two seeds.

The family of God extends all the way back to the beginning. Likewise, the family of Satan extends to the same period, illustrated vividly in the episode of Abel and Cain. The way that the word of God uses the phrase "the Generation of evil", makes it synonymous with the children (or family) of the Devil. It does not refer only to an immediate present day family group. The Generation of evil refers to all the seed of the Serpent throughout time, who are of that family by their Patriarchal relationship to the spirit of Satan. Just as the children of God refer to the whole family of God, which are a chosen generation, [genos] or family (1st Peter 2:9) extending throughout time. So it's not just people who happen to be living at the time in which the phrase was written. God uses these family relationships to illustrate those who are of the same spiritual kinship, as illustrated in passages like John chapter 8:

John 8:44
  • "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
Once again we see that Christ is clearly explaining the divine truth that they were the kindred, seed or children of the Devil. They were part of a particular spiritual family group relationship and that is why Christ identifies their "father" as the Devil. Selah! Satan "is" the spiritual Patriarch reference for the whole generation or family of evil. Clearly, Satan has had many children throughout time, not merely those whom Christ was speaking to in this immediate context in Matthew 24, etc. All those under Satan's spiritual control are the generation or family of evil which has existed from the beginning. In Biblical terms, they are the spiritual offspring (generation) of their Patriarch reference, which is that old Serpent the Devil and Satan. Just as when Christ speaks of the people as a generation of vipers, He is identifying that seed, these children, that family group, as a people who serve their father Satan. He is not talking about everyone in that physical generation or time period. Nor were all living in that physical (generation) time span, this generation Christ spoke of. Nor could they be, since they all were not children of Satan or of evil.

Matthew 12:32-35
  • "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
  • Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
  • O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
  • A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."
How can a [gennema] (meaning offspring or family) of vipers, children of the serpent, speak good things when they speak from their heart, which is full of evil. This family (translated generation) that Christ references is the seed of the serpent, children of vipers. That clearly cannot be all the physical generation alive at that time, which consists of the Apostles, John the Baptist, Mary, Elizabeth, or any of the true church of that period. They cannot commit the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Ghost. Of necessity it has to be only the unregenerate 'family' of the viper Satan. Not the whole generation living at that time, He spoke of the family of Satan who cannot escape the damnation of Hell--yes, THAT generation. Therefore, when Christ calls them the [gennema] of vipers, he is not referring to ALL those people of that time (as many often understand generation o to mean), but he is speaking only of the seed of the serpent, Satan. It is a family or generation of evil that cannot escape judgment, and Satan is their spiritual Patriarch father.

Matthew 23:32-34
  • Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
  • Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
  • Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:"
The well-oiled myth that the phrase this generation always refers to a particular span of that contemporary time, is clearly not the case. Here Christ references the previous people (their fathers) who lived before, and who killed and persecuted the prophets, and includes them as this same generation (or family) of vipers and snakes. He also includes those who would come after and persecute His prophets. That proves it's not referring only to his contemporaries. Because it is self-evident that if this word meant that all this generation (the way many understand the word) at that time were a bunch of snakes who couldn't escape the damnation of hell, then it would mean the wicked who came before them and after them, and killed the prophets and the Apostles, were not in that generation also. That contradicts the passage itself. The Apostles were of that physical generation "if" the word Generation really meant what the Praeterits (preterists) believe that it means. But obviously, Christ is not talking about that local contemporary physical generation, He is talking about those who are a family [gennema] of spiritual vipers or snakes.

Psalms 140:1-3
  • "Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man;
  • Which imagine mischiefs in their heart; continually are they gathered together for war.
  • They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah."
The adder is a type of viper or snake representing Satan, and these people are of that family of evil. Men who, out of the evil in their hearts, bring forth wicked fruit. In this, we see that there is not only precedence for the word generation not used in reference to the present time, but many times the context itself demands that it not be understood that way. A generation of vipers are a evil family [gennema], kindred spirits with the Devil, everyone from Cain to the Last unsaved person on Earth!

And we should also not lose sight of the fact that in order for All to be fulfilled in that physical generation (which Christ declared in Matthew chapter 24), the time He refers to must have all those things fulfilled. Not a few, not some, not most, but ALL. So the time when ALL will be fulfilled must be at the end of the world/age, only then will this generation of evil pass! When we study the context of Matthew chapter 24, it becomes abundantly clear that this end time period is what God is referring to when all will be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:3
  • "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
We are all well aware of the claims that the end of the age took place in 70 AD, but that is a Biblically untenable position for several reasons. First, the end of the age if it referred to the Old Testament dispensation came when Christ died and was resurrected (approximately 33 AD), not almost 40 years later in A.D. 70. Second, His coming is declared to be as it was in the days of Noah, GLOBAL, and WORLD DEVASTATING, (rather than city destruction) and that obviously didn't happen in A.D 70. The proponents of this theory come to this disjointed conclusion by selectively interpreting age/world [aion], and then arbitrarily making the supposition that there was an end of the age/world in A.D. 70. This despite the fact that there is absolutely no Biblical warrant for declaring 70 AD as the time of an end of an age. Not one single Scripture makes that claim. So while they insist that Matthew 24's declaration of the end of the world is a mis-translation of the word [aion] meaning age, they are still unable to coherently explain verses such as found in Luke chapter 18:

Luke 18:30
  • "Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting."
This is the exact same Greek word [aion], meaning world/age. If that present time when Christ spoke was before 70 AD when He says they receive manifold more, and the age to come brought eternal life for them, then obviously 70 AD being the next age (according to their theory) must have been the age when eternal life was instituted. Did eternal life come in 70 AD? Did life everlasting only start after Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans? Well, DUH! It did not take place! The TRUTH is that the New Dispensation started at the death and resurrection of Christ, and is consummated at the end of the world/age when Christ returns. Period! So this theory of Preterism is quite bankrupt and void of any solid scriptural foundation. Jesus is obviously speaking not about an alleged beginning of an age in 70 AD, but about the end of the world/age at His second coming. This is when all would be fulfilled, and this is when this Generation of evil would pass and not a second before. Indeed, that is the answer to the very question that the Disciples asked in Matthew 24 of when the timing of the end and His second coming would be.

Sorry Preterists, your 70AD theory has been refuted!
 
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claninja

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Just as the children of God refer to the whole family of God, which are a chosen generation, [genos] or family (1st Peter 2:9) extending throughout time.

Genos is a different word than Genea
Not a physical temple.

“These things” - refers to the temple building. The temple was literally destroyed within their generation


Matthew 24:2 Do you see all these things?” He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
 
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TribulationSigns

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Genos is a different word than Genea


“These things” - refers to the temple building. The temple was literally destroyed within their generation



Matthew 24:2 Do you see all these things?” He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
Think I am mad with all the spiritualization?

John 10:20
  • "And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?"
Well, we aren't the first to be called mad when they spoke of "spiritual" things, and so I guess we are in good company. Spiritual understanding has always been "foolishness" to some. When Christ said you must be born again, people asked how they could get back into their mother again. When Christ said you must eat my flesh, his disciples left him in droves and walked with him no more. When Christ said to destroy this temple and people thought He wanted a physical temple being destroyed. Because they had no spiritual understanding. It is written:

1st Corinthians 2:13-14
  • "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
  • But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
So that many (including disciples before the filling of the Holy Spirit) do not understand the things of the Spirit is not a surprise to me, and shouldn't be to other Christians. As it is a given. :)

The disciples, as well as people like you, thought Christ was talking about the physical temple when Christ said "see those things" but He had something else in mind that He was talking about which I already proved with Scripture earlier. Go learn the meaning of the stones, the temple falling and in three days it rebuilt (with what?), etc.. I did not spiritualize those, Christ did. You have to search in Scripture to find His interpretation. Spiritual discernment :)
 
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