Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

robycop3

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Yep, and the Temple's still there, and sacrifice is still going on. Oh, I forgot, your lot have to deny that those things happened. And 70*7>2000, right?

funny folks who follow a doctrine that requires them to deny that historical events ever happened to make it "work" have the chutzpah to call any other doctrine false.

Do hyper futurists also believe in flying saucers and chupacabras as well?
You're just being silly now. Two can play that game.

Jesus came back, but He decided to lay low in Goofoffistan awhile til the beast comes to power. The beast is pumping gas at a Bi-Lo station in Kokomo. Ind. while he plans his coup to overthrow all govts. & become the big kahoona. He committed the AOD by pumping gas into a Diesel vehicle while putting antifreeze into its windshield washer reservoir. His image is the purple Beanie Baby.
 
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Timtofly

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As I've said 42 months symbolizes specific time, given to the beast to destroy. It is NOT 1260 days, because that too symbolizes specific time, given to the Church for proclaiming the Gospel. These specific symbolic times are equal to time, times and half/dividing of time. That's how we know they are symbolic and not literal. Time, times and half/dividing of time is equivalent to the whole New Covenant Messianic age. These times are not literal, but rather equal amounts of time given to each entity for good or evil throughout this Gospel age.

The woman, which symbolizes the Church has a place in the wilderness (world) where she is fed a thousand two hundred threescore days. This time of nourishment is likened to a time, and times, and half a time from the face of the serpent. That would be the whole Messianic Gospel age.

Revelation 12:6 (KJV) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:14 (KJV) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The world, which is what Gentiles means are given forty two months to tread underfoot the holy city. And this is also the amount of time given the beast to blasphemy God, His name, and His tabernacle and them that dwell in heaven, and the amount of time he makes war with and overcomes the saints, having power over the nations of the world. And according to Daniel this time the saints are worn out and given into his hand is likened to a time, times and a half.

Revelation 11:2 (KJV) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 13:5 (KJV) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Revelation 13:6-7 (KJV)
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:25 (KJV) And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Last, but not least Daniel hears the man clothed in linen say the amount of time to scatter the power of the holy people (42 months) is for a time, times and an half when ALL these things shall be accomplished.

Daniel 12:7 (KJV) And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

What this shows is that the 1260 days as well as the 42 months equal time, times and an half/dividing of time. Since Daniel's prophesy tells us that all that is written will be finished in time, times and an half of time, these times equate to the whole New Covenant Messianic period of time for proclaiming the Gospel unto all the world, a symbolic thousand years. The time the prophets foretell as the Day of the Lord.
Daniel 12:7 is equal to 3500 years. That covers from Daniel's day to the Cross. Then from the Cross to the Second Coming. Then the reign of Christ until He hands back all of creation, and time is no more.

Daniel 7:25 warns about changing times. If you change a specific 42 months into something else, does that not make you in essence part of end time, time changers?

Revelation no where deals with long periods of indefinite time. What John sees (these specific time frames) and writes down, all happen after the Second Coming, and Amil want to change all these times around to suit their eschatological bias. Amil cannot use these times frames because they don't allow for a single one time event. This event where everything is destroyed and one single resurrection all happening in the same hour.

Better heed Daniel 7:25.
 
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Jipsah

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Jesus came back
Difference - the Temple's gone, but our Lord hasn't returned yet. Partial, aka Othodox, preterism, right? What's happened has happened, what hasn't happened, hasn't happened. Hard for one whose doctrine insists that things that have happened haven't really happened yet to grasp, but there it is. Your doctrine almost as goofy as the scenario you presented.
 
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robycop3

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Difference - the Temple's gone, but our Lord hasn't returned yet. Partial, aka Othodox, preterism, right? What's happened has happened, what hasn't happened, hasn't happened. Hard for one whose doctrine insists that things that have happened haven't really happened yet to grasp, but there it is. Your doctrine almost as goofy as the scenario you presented.
NUPE ! The AOD hasn't yet occurred, nor has the beast come yet, nor the great trib.. There must be a temple for the AOD to occur in.

Now, if those events have already occurred, then Jesus is 'WAY-late, as He said He'd return immediately after the trib. What's goofy is your denial of plain Scripture.
 
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robycop3

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Ah, so the destruction of the Temple and the cessessation of sacrifice are simply myths. Got it. So the Temple is still there, but has been cloaked in some way right? And sacrifice and oblation go on unhindered, and thinking otherwise is simply a myth, yes? Got it. And all the Jews are just waiting with bated breath for the signal to start excavation for the New Temple. Uh huh. No sack of Jerusalem, which was never compassed about by armies, comme ça? Just out of curiousity, you're not a 9/11 Truther, are you?

Right. Just like the works of Homer were really written by some other guy with the same name.

Right. Those historical events were just dry runs, zat it?

If the events have already happened, you could tell me the name of the beast & his sidekick the false prophet, when the abomination of desolation occurred, when the worldwide great trib occurred, and, most of all, WHEN JESUS RETURNED in great power & glory, seen by every eye. You cannot show me in history when any of those events happened, simply because THEY HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET.
 
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eclipsenow

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If the events have already happened, you could tell me the name of the beast & his sidekick the false prophet, when the abomination of desolation occurred, when the worldwide great trib occurred, and, most of all, WHEN JESUS RETURNED in great power & glory, seen by every eye. You cannot show me in history when any of those events happened, simply because THEY HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET.
This is the view my my neck of the woods:


“If a group of Christians sat down to list perplexing passages, it wouldn’t take long for someone to mention Matthew 24:15-16: “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”


The reasons for uncertainty are easy to list. What is an abomination? What abomination does Jesus have in mind? One that belongs to his generation, or one from the last days? What is the connection between the prophecies of Daniel and Jesus? Who is “the reader,” and what should he or she understand? In what sense should readers “flee to the mountains”? Should they obey literally or metaphorically?


As always, the first step is to read the text in literary, cultural, historical, and canonical contexts. Then we analyze the structure of the passage and do the necessary lexical and grammatical work. We begin with the key phrase, “abomination of desolation.”


The term “abomination” (Hebrew toevah and siqqus) appears more than 100 times in the Old Testament and just a few times in the New Testament. An abomination is normally a great sin, commonly worthy of death. Readers immersed in current debates about sexual ethics may first think an abomination is a sexual sin. Indeed, Scripture calls sexual sins like adultery, homosexuality, and inappropriate behavior with animals abominations (e.g., Leviticus 18:22, 29-30). But more often throughout the Bible “abomination” refers to major covenant violations, especially idolatry (in Deuteronomy alone, see 7:25, 13:6-16, 17:2-5, 18:9-12, 27:15, 32:16). In the historical books, “abomination” always describes idolatry, often with child sacrifice (1 Kings 11:7, 2 Kings 23:13). Abomination also refers to idolatry in the prophets, including Daniel 9 and 11. (Daniel uses siqqus, a term that always appears in connection with idolatry.)


The interpretation of Daniel 9-11 is difficult and disputed, but it does have some fixed points, and the nature of the abomination that causes desolation is one of them. Daniel 9:26-27 refers to a prince who will destroy the city (Jerusalem) along with its temple and sacrifices, “and on the wings of abominations shall come one who makes desolate.” Two chapters later there is another reference to an “abomination” in connection to the temple: “forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate” (11:31).


Scholars generally agree that the first reference of these prophecies is the Seleucid king Antiochus Epiphanes IV, who ruled Palestine from 175-64 B.C. Antiochus treated Israel with such violence and contempt that they rebelled against him. When he came to suppress the rebellion, his forces entered the temple, stopped the regular sacrifices, set up an idol of or altar for Zeus, and apparently offered swine there as a sacrifice. This is an abomination because it is idolatry, and it brings desolation because it defiles the holy place at the heart of Israel. This act was the abomination “of” desolation, the abomination “causing” desolation.


Larger StructureHaving surveyed the original meaning of “abomination of desolation” in Daniel, we now to turn Matthew 24:15-16, first looking at the larger structure of Matthew 24. These verses come in the context of the Olivet Discourse, which begins with Jesus telling his disciples that the temple will be destroyed (24:1-2). The disciples then asked Jesus to explain: “When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” (24:3).The disciples probably thought they were asking one question. The fall of Jerusalem, Jesus’ return, and the end of the age were one complex event in their minds. It may seem to us that they asked three questions:When will the temple fall?What is the sign of Jesus’ return?What is the sign of the close of this age?


But a close reading shows that Jesus heard and answered two questions. Evangelical scholars will disagree about how much of this passage is devoted to each question, but they generally agree that 24:3-35 mostly refers to events leading up to the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. The segment ends with Jesus promising “this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place” (24:35). A generation normally lasts 40 years in Scripture, and Jerusalem and its temple did fall within 40 years, as Jesus said. So his core prediction was fulfilled by AD 70. (Space forbids that I address double and partial fulfillments of elements of 24:3-35. The interested reader may consult orthodox commentaries.) Then, in 24:36, Jesus starts to speak exclusively about “that day”—that is, the last day.


In 24:4-14, the, Jesus is preparing his disciples for events—most of them extremely difficult—that will take place in their lifetime. These troubles are not signs of the end; the disciples must be ready to “stand firm” through them (24:4-8, 13). Then he says, “When you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation . . . ‘—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”


This prophecy makes sense only with reference to the fall of Jerusalem. It cannot possibly apply to Jesus’ return. When he comes it will be pointless for an unbeliever to try to flee. And a believer will not want to flee. For the same reason, the following command not to go back to get a cloak and the woe for nursing mothers who must flee cannot refer to Jesus’ return. But they make perfect sense if Jesus predicts that another abomination of desolation, like Antiochus Epiphanes of Daniel, is coming. Indeed that abomination did come in Roman form in AD 70. The Roman armies were always an abomination because they carried with them idolatrous images of the emperor, whom they worshiped. And those armies brought desolation because their commander leveled the city and entered the holy of holies, defiling it.


The line “let the reader understand” (24:15) means that those who read Matthew—which would have been written before AD 70—must be ready to flee when they see Roman armies besieging Jerusalem. Indeed, the parallel account in Luke 21 makes this point explicit: “when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies . . . flee to the mountains” (Luke 21:10-24). In fact, many Christians did flee, sparing their lives, when they saw Rome’s armies coming. Eusebius, the first great historian of the church, says that when the Romans fell upon Jerusalem, “the church at Jerusalem . . . left the city, and moved to a town called Pella.”[1] So Jesus, ever the Good Shepherd, told the first Christians how to survive those most harrowing years of the church’s infancy.


A wise preacher dealing with this passage may find particular value in focusing on this point. When Jesus gives instruction concerning future events, his purpose is not to satiate our curiosity or answer all or our speculative questions. Instead, his purpose is to protect and guide and instruct his people. Jesus gave relatively little attention to the question “When?” and much toward the question “How shall we live faithfully?” Preaching on such texts today should be shaped by Jesus’ concern for the welfare and endurance of his church.[1] Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, trans. Christian Cruse (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1955), 86-87.”


What Is the ‘Abomination of Desolation’?
 
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JLB777

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See this pointless. The verses I posted gave the timing of the second coming and you totally disregard the words of the verse and present an argument about clouds that you don’t understand.

The resurrection and rapture as well as the destruction of the wicked occur at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3


  • For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

The resurrection and rapture occur at the coming of the Lord.


Those who are resurrected from the dead, as well as those who are raptured, will have glorified bodies that shine like the sun and will never die again.


But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


If people can still die and they are being married or given in marriage, then the resurrection of the dead has not taken place, nor has the coming of the Lord.


Again


Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 1 Corinthians 15:51-54



JLB
 
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iamlamad

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If people can still die and they are being married or given in marriage, then the resurrection of the dead has not taken place, nor has the coming of the Lord.
What if only SOME group of people were resurrected, leaving most still in their graves. And only SOME who are alive caught up, leaving others in natural bodies still walking around?

Your statement would then be wrong.
 
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iamlamad

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There are a couple of preterist "safe houses" here where prets can post their stuff free of counterposts. However, I KNOW preterism is false, both partial and full. And here's how I know:

Full preterism is false because it's VERY-OBVIOUS Jesus hasn't returned. When He does return, He will be seen by all, as He said He will take over the rule of the world after casting the antichrist & false prophet alive into hell. He and His saints will reign over the earth for 1K years. And obviously, that hasn't occurred yet. if you think it has, please tell us the beast/antichrist's name, the date he took power, the name of his sidekick the false prophet, and describe the mark of the beast.

Partial is false because Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. If the trib has already occurred, Jesus is long-overdue !

I have in front of me the Encyclopaedia Britannica, Collier's, & World Book encyclopediae, as well as eleven different Bible versions. And the occurrence of those events is NOT found in ANY of them.
Why?
They simply HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED !

Prets try to reduce "inconvenient" Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status to attempt to cover their lack of evidence for their doctrine, but that won't work, either.

Just face it, Ladies & Gents; your doctrine simply isn't true.

Please, let's keep this thread free of bunny trails & tangents, & keep it on preterism, either defending it or rejecting it as I do. That's why the last similar thread was closed.
Would you call anyone who does not believe the rapture is found in Rev. 4:1 a preterist or partial preterist?

Would you call anyone who believes we are NOW at the 5th seal waiting for the final church age martyr to be killed a preterist or partial preterist?
 
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JLB777

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What if only SOME group of people were resurrected, leaving most still in their graves. And only SOME who are alive caught up, leaving others in natural bodies still walking around?

Your statement would then be wrong.

But since the word of God says…. the dead in Christ will rise first, not “some” of the dead in Christ, we can be assured.


For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

again


Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52



JLB
 
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eclipsenow

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What if only SOME group of people were resurrected, leaving most still in their graves. And only SOME who are alive caught up, leaving others in natural bodies still walking around?

Your statement would then be wrong.
Show me verses that indicate this? It's all, not some. It's universal, not partial. It's the whole heavens and earth changing - not some little local thing.
 
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Jipsah

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NUPE ! The AOD hasn't yet occurred
Well, yeah, it has. The Temple was desecrated by the Romans, the Abomination being the pagan sacrifice made to legion battle standards in the Temple. History, you see.
nor has the beast come yet
Sure he has. "666", Neron Kaiser. The Revelator told his readers that the wise would know to whom 666 referred. They did. History.

, nor the great trib.
Really? Seems to me it kind of sucked to be living in Jerusalem right then, you reckon?

. There must be a temple for the AOD to occur in.
Sure was. The Romans descrated it and destroyed it. History. Remember about how sacrifice will cease? This will come as a shock to you, but it did. History.

Now, if those events have already occurred, then Jesus is 'WAY-late, as He said He'd return immediately after the trib.
Really? Chapter and verse, homey.


What's goofy is your denial of plain Scripture.
Sorry mate, but your denial of plain history shows that you've completely misunderstood, or, more likely completely disregarded, what the Scripture actually says. You started out with a doctrine, and then used the old "what that really means..." con to try and make the Scripture match it. Your doctrine is rubbish.
 
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robycop3

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Well, yeah, it has. The Temple was desecrated by the Romans, the Abomination being the pagan sacrifice made to legion battle standards in the Temple. History, you see.
Nupe ! The ACTUAL AOD will be when the beast/antichrist sets up a statue of himself in the new temple the Jews will build, proclaim himself God, & stop all sacrifices. It'll be similar to the first one committed by Antiochus Epiphanes in the 160s BC.

Sure he has. "666", Neron Kaiser. The Revelator told his readers that the wise would know to whom 666 referred. They did. History.
Nupe ! Nero didn't fulfill many of the Scriptural criteria for the beast/antichrist, while the TRUE beast will fulfill them all, to the letter. For example, Nero died; he was not cast alive into hell.
Really? Seems to me it kind of sucked to be living in Jerusalem right then, you reckon?
The great trib will be worldwide, as Jesus said.
Sure was. The Romans descrated it and destroyed it. History. Remember about how sacrifice will cease? This will come as a shock to you, but it did. History.
The Jews will build a new one & begin offering sacrifices in it again.
Really? Chapter and verse, homey.
Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Sorry mate, but your denial of plain history shows that you've completely misunderstood, or, more likely completely disregarded, what the Scripture actually says. You started out with a doctrine, and then used the old "what that really means..." con to try and make the Scripture match it. Your doctrine is rubbish.
Not denying history, Sweetie; I'm denying your interpretation of its events. Please tell me when Jesus returned in great power & glory, as He said He will. (Matt. 24:30)
 
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iamlamad

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Show me verses that indicate this? It's all, not some. It's universal, not partial. It's the whole heavens and earth changing - not some little local thing.
Someone had written: "If people can still die and they are being married or given in marriage, then the resurrection of the dead has not taken place, nor has the coming of the Lord."

People are certainly going to be married and given in marriage after the rapture, for the rapture will only affect these IN CHRIST. The rest of the world will go right on living - for a time.

The rapture is NOT universal: it is ONLY for believers in Christ.
 
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iamlamad

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But since the word of God says…. the dead in Christ will rise first, not “some” of the dead in Christ, we can be assured.


For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

again


Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52



JLB
Sorry, but Paul clarified that in 1 thes. 4, it is all the BELIEVERS: those in Christ. Sorry, but the world does not or will not change at Paul's rapture.
 
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eclipsenow

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Nupe ! The ACTUAL AOD will be when the beast/antichrist sets up a statue of himself in the new temple the Jews will build, proclaim himself God, & stop all sacrifices. It'll be similar to the first one committed by Antiochus Epiphanes in the 160s BC.
Nup! The ACTUAL AOD WAS the historical instance Jesus himself SAID would be like Antiochus - and DID happen in "that generation" just as Jesus said it would. That lead to the destruction of THAT TEMPLE - the one the disciples pointed at. The one Jesus himself was eyeballing. That one. 2000 years ago. That was destroyed, that generation, as predicted!

Normally many of us read this chapter as being about the end of the temple and then suddenly jumping to the Return of Jesus, way before Jesus uses the famous phrase in verse 36 "But about THAT DAY or hour no one knows."

Why do we make that jump? Because we don't know the context and meaning of the Old Testament verses being quoted, and so it sounds an awful lot like the end of the world! I used to read this passage as the end of the world - but got really confused when it said "34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." But the world DIDN'T end then. So what does it all mean?

We need to put aside our preconceived ideas and systematically go through this apocalyptic symbolism and try and find what is being quoted from the Old Testament. Because I'm starting to side with Dr Bolt that if we look at the OT verses in context, this is all about God judging Jerusalem and the Old Covenant, and as the temple is destroyed they are to remember that Jesus is reigning from heaven! Indeed, it's because Jesus is reigning that such a thing could even happen!

Also please remember Jesus has just wept over Jerusalem, declared he IS the temple - and knows he is about to be brutally murdered as the ultimate sacrifice. This sometimes abstract thing we call "the gospel" is about to get very real indeed!

MATTHEW 24: “Immediately after the distress of those days“ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’”

= This sounds like the end of the world. But in the Old Testament this is the image used to describe a kingdom being burned to the ground.

Isaiah 13: "See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.”

= Isaiah writes a prophecy against Babylon where God brings Medes and Persians to strike down Babylon. But, typical of Hebrew hyperbolic symbolism - listen to this language!

Isaiah 34: “All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.”

= is a more universal judgment against all God's enemies - the picture of Edom. It has more graphic and physical battle language mixed in with the stars falling.

Joel 2: “Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.” = describes a vast army of the Lord bringing justice - and uses similar language.

Then what do we make of the next bit of Matt 24?

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

People are geographically challenged with the direction the Son of Man is travelling. He's not travelling TO the Earth here, but back TO the father!

Check Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

People always think this is the Lord coming back to earth. What if this is the Lord Jesus, the Son of Man, going back into heaven and being welcomed by the Ancient of Days, God the Father, after dying for us all? Isn't that just the appropriate image for God the Son returning as the "Son of Man" who was killed and now lives? Then he IS given an eternal dominion - the church - and we are reigning in heaven with him now - even as our bodies remain here on earth.

Back to Matthew 24: 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The word in the Greek is angelos, and can be translated as Angels, but can also mean messengers.

What if we've been reading THIS bit wrong as well, and it's actually the apostles gathering in the elect with the message, the gospel? Jesus is a week away from dying. He is about to go through horrible things and the disciples scatter. There have already been false Messiahs on the scene. So immediately after the distress of 'those days' is not really clear in timing.

Check these uses of "angelos" which is not angels but messengers or even spies!

James 2:25: "In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the SPIES and sent them off in a different direction?" (NIV, ESV says "messengers".)

Luke 9:52: "And he sent MESSENGERS ahead of him, who went and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make preparations for him."

It's the same word, angelos. It's about context.

Daniel 7 is about the Son of Man going back to the father and winning a kingdom.

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world - it's the church instead which is not meant to be a political body.

Daniel 7 + gospel events of Jesus dying then going back to the Ancient of Days = end of Old Covenant, End of Temple, and messengers taking out the gospel. And if I haven't explained it well enough, here are my Reformed Sydney Anglican Ministers doing a better job.

The first half of Matthew 24 - the readings start at 22:00 minutes in and then the talk.


The second half of Matthew 24 - readings start at 21 minutes in.


(Also, please do not text that mobile number questions as it is only for during the service.)

The Sydney Anglican view is controversial - but this paper compares this and DA Carson and other theologians on this passage. https://thematthewphile.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/matthew-24-25-nt4-2008-lecture-notes.pdf
 
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Jipsah

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Nupe ! The ACTUAL AOD will be when the beast/antichrist sets up a statue of himself in the new temple the Jews will build, proclaim himself God, & stop all sacrifices.
Says your rubbish doctrine. You began with the conclusion, and then assigned "meanings" to it to make if fit your doctrine, completely ignoring, or completely ignorant of or, most likely, a combination of both.
Can't let historical facts interfere with your beloved doctrine, now can we?
It'll be similar to the first one committed by Antiochus Epiphanes in the 160s BC.
Lessee, AE sacrificed to a statue of Zeus. The legionaries sacrificed to their legion standards. Nah, no resemblance there. <Guffaw>

The Jews will build a new one & begin offering sacrifices in it again.
Simple lunacy. Read Hebrews and get back to us. It's in the New Testament.

Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Never read any other apocalyptic writings, have you? Our Lord's hearers understood, they knew the Scriptures. You don't.
Not denying history, Sweetie; I'm denying your interpretation of its events. Please tell me when Jesus returned in great power & glory, as He said He will. (Matt. 24:30)
[/QUOTE]
Right after you explain how the things that our Lord told His disciples would hapen in their lifetimes, and how they should deal with them "didn't really count", or however your jackleg doctrine "explains them away". As I said, either ignorant of history, willfully ignoring it, or both.
 
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robycop3

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Says your rubbish doctrine. You began with the conclusion, and then assigned "meanings" to it to make if fit your doctrine, completely ignoring, or completely ignorant of or, most likely, a combination of both.
Can't let historical facts interfere with your beloved doctrine, now can we?
Nupe ! Went by Scripture.
Lessee, AE sacrificed to a statue of Zeus. The legionaries sacrificed to their legion standards. Nah, no resemblance there. <Guffaw>
That's cuz the Romans didn't commit the AOD. The "legion atandards" thingie is pret jive, pullwd outta thin air.
Simple lunacy. Read Hebrews and get back to us. It's in the New Testament.
MMRRPP ! WRONG ! There must be a temple for the AOD to occur in.
Never read any other apocalyptic writings, have you? Our Lord's hearers understood, they knew the Scriptures. You don't.
Right after you explain how the things that our Lord told His disciples would hapen in their lifetimes, and how they should deal with them "didn't really count", or however your jackleg doctrine "explains them away". As I said, either ignorant of history, willfully ignoring it, or both.
[/QUOTE]

Jesus never said it'd happen in their lifetimes.
 
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eclipsenow

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That's cuz the Romans didn't commit the AOD. The "legion atandards" thingie is pret jive, pullwd outta thin air.
It's actually historically true - documented - and rational.
It makes the most sense of the passage where Jesus said it would happen in THAT Generation.
It was about THAT temple, THAT generation, and actually happened about 40 years later.
You have to invent a highly speculative reading of the passage about a hypothetical third temple and hypothetical AOD that dismisses what Jesus said about THAT generation.

But when someone has a passionate commitment to Revelation being all about US instead of all about THEM 2000 years ago and by extension to all Christians - I guess anything is possible when shoving the gospels to fit whatever?
 
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