Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[robycop3]

Whether you consider it "shameful" or not makes no difference. You are ignoring the very same language in 1 John 2:19 when it speaks of "NOT ALL" of the antichrists belonging among the church fellowship. The words "NOT ALL" in this context means "NONE" of those antichrists belonged among the church fellowship.

Well, if NOT ALL the antichrists belonged to the church fellowship, then NOT ALL the saints will die . Common sense!

When used in 1 Corinthians 15:51, "NOT ALL" also means "NONE". NONE of the saints Paul spoke of would stay dead in the grave sleeping. They would ALL be changed from that DEAD state to the incorruptible, immortal condition. This is a simple comparison of scripture with scripture. It twists nothing, as you are assuming.

No one said any of the saints would stay dead, but Paul wrote that not all would die.

The way you interpreting this 1 Corinthians 15:51 verse to make it say that not all men will physically die, you are making it directly contradict Hebrews 9:26 where all mankind is appointed to die the one time. Why are you doing this? You are forcing scripture to contradict itself.

You keep repeating that jive, while ADMITTING THAT ENOCH DIDN'T DIE, and he was a man, same as we are. And again, the same GOD who APPOINTS, can UN-appoint as He chooses.

It wasn't those who were "alive" (who hadn't died yet) at Christ return who were to meet the Lord in the air. It was those who were "alive and REMAINED" who would meet the Lord in the air. This word in the Greek indicates a set-apart group which had been RESERVED for a length of time and for a special purpose. These "alive and remaining" saints were those who had been MADE ALIVE already by a resurrection process. Like Lazarus; like Dorcas whom Peter presented "alive" to her companions; like the Matthew 27:52-53 saints who were raised to life on Christ's resurrection day. These had all "remained" on earth in those resurrected bodies, but were not allowed to ascend to heaven yet until the 7 plagues were poured out (Revelation 15:8). They were in a reserved, set-apart category of saints which God used for the early church's benefit in those days.

You are artificially inserting a translation-type change for the living into this "rapture" text which isn't included there at all. This is an idea that is totally contrary to Hebrews 9:26 and its requirement for all mankind to die one time. Why are you doing this? You are making scripture contradict itself.

No, neither he nor I are doing that. OTOH, YOU are DENYING Scripture, where Paul wrote that we shall not all die! A first-grader can see that !

SHAME ON YOU! You're putting mens' garbage over God's word by saying the opposite of what Paul wrote ! You got your junk from another man; Paul got his facts from JESUS.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Your position on this is only valid if there is not one single saved person still physically alive when the last trump sounds. But if there are saved ppl still physically alive when the last trump sounds, they are obviously still mortal prior to the sounding of the last trump and will remain mortal forever unless they too are changed in this same twinkling of an eye. No mortal person can live forever, but someone that has been changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump certainly can.

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:52 that it would be the DEAD bodies of the saints which would be changed in the twinkling of an eye. He said nothing at all about the bodies of the living saints being changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Whoever is living on this planet when Christ next returns - whether believers or not - none of these can survive the fully-manifested glory of the returning Christ. No one can survive this experience, since God told Moses that no man can look on the full glory of God's face and live. (Incidentally, I believe this is probably what caused Moses's death on Mount Nebo - when Moses finally got what he had once earnestly asked for - a face-to-face view of God's full glory which would have caused his death). Whenever individuals encountered an angel in scripture, or even the reflected glory of God on Moses's shining face - this was something they could not endure while in a mortal state.

It will be the same when Christ next returns. I believe He will allow an unshielded full display of His glory on that day which no one living on earth will survive. But after that, He will then bodily resurrect all that belong to Him and change them to an incorruptible, immortal state, as promised for the children of God.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

No matter what era of time one tries to apply this to, it still means what it says, that there will be some who are still alive and remain among the living when they meet the Lord in the air

The key word is "remain" in this text. As I mentioned to SJ above, this word "remain" in Greek indicates a set-apart group in a RESERVED status that is preserved for a particular appointed purpose. These were the sealed 144,000 First-fruits - the Matthew 27:52-53 saints resurrected on the same day as Christ. Their "seal" assuring them of their eventual ascension to heaven kept them in an incorruptible, immortal state while still here on earth, preserving them in that condition until they were finally able to join the newly-resurrected saints at Christ's soon-coming return.

As to the ones meant in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, this is their state prior to the sounding of the last trump---this corruptible--this mortal---and this is their state once the last trump sounds---have put on incorruption---have put on immortality---which then equals death is swallowed up in victory. But only in regards to the saved, not the lost as well. There is still a second death to deal with in their case, meaning the lost. But that happens during the great white throne judgment. Nothing in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 is involving the time of the great white throne judgment.

The "second death" was the second time that the nation of Israel had been destroyed, and their city and temple burned. Their first death occurred at the hands of the Babylonians in 586 BC. When it died for a second time in the AD 70 era, the "Lake of Fire" in Jerusalem itself burned up everything within the city again. God threw Death and Hades - the grave - into this Lake of Fire at the time. Somehow, the wicked dead up until that point were judged and perished during that conflagration. God called Jerusalem a "furnace of fire" back in Isaiah 31:9. It was the same "furnace of fire" in which there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth for those whom Christ had eaten and drunk with while on earth, and taught in their streets.

And there is more than just a single GWT judgment. There will be another one in our future as well for those who have died since the last GWT judgment in AD 70.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Whether you consider it "shameful" or not makes no difference. You are ignoring the very same language in 1 John 2:19 when it speaks of "NOT ALL" of the antichrists belonging among the church fellowship. The words "NOT ALL" in this context means "NONE" of those antichrists belonged among the church fellowship.

When used in 1 Corinthians 15:51, "NOT ALL" also means "NONE". NONE of the saints Paul spoke of would stay dead in the grave sleeping. They would ALL be changed from that DEAD state to the incorruptible, immortal condition. This is a simple comparison of scripture with scripture. It twists nothing, as you are assuming.

But you're not addressing what happens to those who are still alive at the last trumpet. Paul indicates that all will be changed, not just those who are dead at the time.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed.

So, those who are alive at the time will be changed as well. You're not taking that into account. So, what do you do about this? Based on past conversations we've had, I believe you claim that those who are still alive first die at that time and then are resurrected and changed. But, scripture never teaches that.

The way you interpreting this 1 Corinthians 15:51 verse to make it say that not all men will physically die, you are making it directly contradict Hebrews 9:27 where all mankind is appointed to die the one time. Why are you doing this? You are forcing scripture to contradict itself.

LOL. This is ironic. Your wooden literal interpretation of Hebrews 9:27 is causing you to contradict passages like 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. For some reason you have decided that Hebrews 9:27 takes precedence over these other passages and you have decided that since that verse trumps all other verses, you are free to twist other verses to fit your interpretation of Hebrews 9:27.

It wasn't those who were "alive" (who hadn't died yet) at Christ return who were to meet the Lord in the air. It was those who were "alive and REMAINED" who would meet the Lord in the air. This word in the Greek indicates a set-apart group which had been RESERVED for a length of time and for a special purpose. These "alive and remaining" saints were those who had been MADE ALIVE already by a resurrection process.

LOL. This is complete, farfetched nonsense. You are adding all kind of ideas to the text that aren't even remotely there. Unbelievable.

Paul was clearly differentiating in 1 Thess 4:14-17 between the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain. You're making those who are alive and remain to also be among the dead in Christ. It's complete nonsense. I can't take your interpretation seriously at all.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No one said any of the saints would stay dead, but Paul wrote that not all would die.

The promise is that not a single one of the saints will stay asleep in the grave. It doesn't promise that some of them won't pass through the physical death process.

It's just like Jesus once told Martha, "Whosoever liveth and believeth in me in no wise shall die forever" (John 11:26). This was not a promise that the living saints could avoid the physical death process altogether. It was a promise that death would not claim their dead bodies in the grave forever.

You keep repeating that jive, while ADMITTING THAT ENOCH DIDN'T DIE, and he was a man, same as we are. And again, the same GOD who APPOINTS, can UN-appoint as He chooses.

I have already covered with you why God allowed this one man to be the only scripture example of a man ever to be translated so that he should not see death. Enoch / Melchizedek was the unique example of a deathless high priest so that he could be established as the "order of Melchizedek". The unique one-and-only example of a deathless person would then become a fulfilled anti-type in Christ, our Great High Priest, who was established after the order of Melchizedek, and not after the Levitical priesthood.

What kind of special type would that have supplied, if multiplied billions of people would later be translated so as not to see death? That wouldn't have provided any kind of unique type at all, if that were the case. We only needed the single translation example of Enoch / Melchizedek to provide the deathless high priest type for Christ who would be the unique fulfillment of this unique example.

No, neither he nor I are doing that. OTOH, YOU are DENYING Scripture, where Paul wrote that we shall not all die!

I am denying your interpretation of scripture, which creates an internal contradiction with Hebrews 9:27. Any first-grader can see that this is what you are doing.

You're putting mens' garbage over God's word by saying the opposite of what Paul wrote ! You got your junk from another man; Paul got his facts from JESUS.

I am quoting Jesus and the scriptures, not any other man's opinion. I don't get my doctrine from other men. I get it straight from the pages of scripture compared with itself.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:52 that it would be the DEAD bodies of the saints which would be changed in the twinkling of an eye. He said nothing at all about the bodies of the living saints being changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Nonsense. He said we will ALL be changed, not just those who are dead. Stop twisting scripture.

1 Corinthians 15: Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed.

What Paul was saying here is that while we won't all die, we will all be changed. Very simple. All includes those who are dead and those who are alive at the last trumpet. Your lack of discernment about even the simplest of things is mind boggling to me.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Evidently, that gent has read some goofy book by some quack author, or has some quack for a guru, teaching him fantasies. I hope it's not harming his relationship with Jesus! He also believes Satan was banished & the millenium was ongoing in 70 AD, all in keeping with some false preterist garbage. That's reflected in his username on this board.
Scripture should be believed LITERALLY AS POSSIBLE. I realize there's some symbolism in it, such as the sharp sword coming from Jesus' mouth in Rev. 19, which is obvious, as almost all the Scriptural symbolism is, but there's not any hint of symbolism in 1 Thess. 4:14-17. Thus, it should be believed as Paul wrote it.
Rev. 3:10 shows that the rapture, or "translation", as some people prefer, will occur before the great trib sets in. While it was written to the church in Philadelphia, I believe Jesus meant His words to all seven of those old churches for modern ones as well, as all seven types of them exist today.
There will be "trib saints" after the rapture, people who will realize the rapture has occurred, & will come to Jesus, but they'll hafta undergo the trib, & mant will die in it, or be killed by the antichrist's "security force".
As I told the other gent, yes, it's appointed for all men to die once, but he admits Enoch didn't die, and to remember that men were appointed by GOD to die once, but GOD can also UN-appoint as He chooses. Thus, the Christians living when the rapture occurs won't die.

This post is funny to me. I completely agree with some of what you said here and also completely disagree with other things you said. Oh, well. We do agree that his interpretations of passages like 1 Cor 15:50-54 and 1 Thess 4:14-17 are complete nonsense, though.

 

[3 Resurrections]

LOL. This is ironic. Your wooden literal interpretation of Hebrews 9:27 is causing you to contradict passages like 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. For some reason you have decided that Hebrews 9:27 takes precedence over these other passages and you have decided that since that verse trumps all other verses, you are free to twist other verses to fit your interpretation of Hebrews 9:27.

This is hardly "wooden literalism". Especially when Hebrews 9:26-28 directly compares the one-time-only death experience for all mankind to the one-time-only death experience for Christ. Are you willing to say that Christ either never died, or can die again a second time? Because that is the slippery slope you are sitting on if you allow any exceptions for mankind's one-time-only death experience. And a second death for Christ is strictly refuted in Romans 6:9. "Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him."

It takes some "twisting" to avoid this direct correlation between Christ's one-time-only death experience and mankinds' one-time-only death experience. Why are you denying this connection?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I am denying your interpretation of scripture, which creates an internal contradiction with Hebrews 9:27. Any first-grader can see that this is what you are doing.

Do you apply the same wooden literal approach you use to interpret Hebrews 9:27 to the rest of scripture? How do you interpret the following passage:

Acts 2:16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Is this saying that God would pour out His Spirit on literally all people? I mean, it does say that He would pour out His Spirit on all people, right? Yet, we both know that it's not talking about literally all people in that verse. But, if you interpret that verse in the same way you interpret Hebrews 9:27 then the conclusion that you would have to draw is that God would pour out His Spirit on literally all people in the last days. But, again we know it doesn't mean that (at least, I hope you know that). So, can you see how it's not a good idea sometimes to interpret scripture in the wooden literal fashion (it means literally what it says with no exceptions!) that you interpret Hebrews 9:27?

If people like Lazarus and the ones described in Matthew 27:52-53 were resurrected and never died again, as you believe, then why are their resurrections not referenced anywhere in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 where Paul gave the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality? Did Paul forget about them somehow?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

This is hardly "wooden literalism".

Of course it is. For you to say that tells me that you don't know what that means. What it means is that you interpret the verse very literally as written without allowing any exceptions and without considering the context or considering other scripture. That's exactly what you're doing.

Ironically, when it comes to 1 Corinthians 15:52, you don't use that same approach to interpret that verse. Paul said we will ALL be changed at the last trumpet. That would include those who are still alive at the time. But, you don't allow for those who are alive at the time to just be changed. You have to come up with some strange explanation for how they too, along with the dead in Christ, will have died first before being changed.

 

[3 Resurrections]

LOL. This is complete, farfetched nonsense. You are adding all kind of ideas to the text that aren't even remotely there.

For the word "remain" in the Greek found in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 17, you really need to do a word study of this "perileipomenoi" term. It indicates that particular RESERVED status for these individuals over a certain length of time. Such as in the verse "there remaineth therefore a rest for the people of God..." That reserved rest for the people of God was delayed for a certain length of time, but would inevitably be fulfilled at a later date.

It's the same for these "alive and remaining" (perileiopomenoi) saints who remained on the earth for a length of time after their bodily resurrection.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

For the word "remain" in the Greek found in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 17, you really need to do a word study of this "perileipomenoi" term. It indicates that particular RESERVED status for these individuals over a certain length of time. Such as in the verse "there remaineth therefore a rest for the people of God..." That reserved rest for the people of God was delayed for a certain length of time, but would inevitably be fulfilled at a later date.

It's the same for these "alive and remaining" (perileiopomenoi) saints who remained on the earth for a length of time after their bodily resurrection.

I have no idea of what you're trying to say here. You are required to make things as convoluted as possible for your doctrine to work. How can anyone else believe what you do when no one can even understand half of what you believe?

You are focused on the word "remain" here, but are ignoring the word "alive". Those who are alive when Christ returns will not die, but will be immediately changed to have immortal bodies and will be caught up to meet Him in the air along with those who were dead, resurrected and changed.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Of course it is. For you to say that tells me that you don't know what that means. What it means is that you interpret the verse very literally as written without considering context or considering other scripture. That's exactly what you're doing.

This is an odd criticism for those who usually accuse Preterists of interpreting everything in a spiritual sense, with no consideration given to a literal interpretation as a general rule. Why is this a problem for you all of a sudden if I as a Preterist understand the one-time-only death experience of Christ to equal the one-time-only death experience for all mankind? I should think you would applaud my literal interpretation of these words, especially when scripture is directly comparing these two things.

Acts 2:16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Is this saying that God would pour out His Spirit on literally all people?

The context of Joel dictates what he meant by "all people". It was going to be "all people" without discrimination as to gender, social standing or nationality, or age - not "all people" in the entire globe without exception at the time. Context.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You are focused on the word "remain" here, but are ignoring the word "alive".

Wrong. I am not ignoring the word "alive". I already gave an example of the seamstress Dorcas / Tabitha whom Peter presented "ALIVE" to her companions after he had raised her from the dead.

I have no idea of what you're trying to say here. You are required to make things as convoluted as possible for your doctrine to work. How can anyone else believe what you do when no one can even understand half of what you believe?

If you have no idea what I am talking about, then you haven't looked into a word study in this Greek term "Perileipomenoi" yet. Try that first, and then present an argument on this point. If Paul was only speaking of those who were "ALIVE" who had not yet died, then he wouldn't even have bothered using the "remaining" word at all to describe these individuals. He would simply have said "We who are alive shall be caught up..." But he didn't say that. He included the "remaining" term, which has a distinct meaning in this context that changes the traditional thinking of what the "rapture" would entail.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Wrong. I am not ignoring the word "alive". I already gave an example of the seamstress Dorcas / Tabitha whom Peter presented "ALIVE" to her companions after he had raised her from the dead.

LOL. The context of 1 Thess 4:14-17 has nothing to do with something like that.

If you have no idea what I am talking about, then you haven't looked into a word study in this Greek term "Perileipomenoi" yet. Try that first, and then present an argument on this point. If Paul was only speaking of those who were "ALIVE" who had not yet died, then he wouldn't even have bothered using the "remaining" word at all to describe these individuals. He would simply have said "We who are alive shall be caught up..." But he didn't say that. He included the "remaining" term, which has a distinct meaning in this context that changes the traditional thinking of what the "rapture" would entail.

As is normal for you, you're reading way too much into the text. It's simply referring to those who will still be physically alive when He returns which he contrasts with the physically dead in Christ. That's it. There's no reason to read any more into it than that. But, you have to read more into it because you base everything on your interpretation of Hebrews 9:27. It seems to me that it doesn't matter to you if your interpretation of any given verse or passage makes any sense as long as it doesn't contradict your interpretation of Hebrews 9:27.

 

[robycop3]

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:52 that it would be the DEAD bodies of the saints which would be changed in the twinkling of an eye. He said nothing at all about the bodies of the living saints being changed in the twinkling of an eye.

OH, PICKLES!
He also said "WE shall all be changed." That meant those still living, of course!

Whoever is living on this planet when Christ next returns - whether believers or not - none of these can survive the fully-manifested glory of the returning Christ. No one can survive this experience, since God told Moses that no man can look on the full glory of God's face and live. (Incidentally, I believe this is probably what caused Moses's death on Mount Nebo - when Moses finally got what he had once earnestly asked for - a face-to-face view of God's full glory which would have caused his death). Whenever individuals encountered an angel in scripture, or even the reflected glory of God on Moses's shining face - this was something they could not endure while in a mortal state.

Jesus NEVER said no man could look upon Him and live! And He also said EVERY EYE shall see Him.

It will be the same when Christ next returns. I believe He will allow an unshielded full display of His glory on that day which no one living on earth will survive. But after that, He will then bodily resurrect all that belong to Him and change them to an incorruptible, immortal state, as promised for the children of God.

Again, He NEVER said that anyone who saw Him at His return would die! You made that up outta thin air!

The key word is "remain" in this text. As I mentioned to SJ above, this word "remain" in Greek indicates a set-apart group in a RESERVED status that is preserved for a particular appointed purpose. These were the sealed 144,000 First-fruits - the Matthew 27:52-53 saints resurrected on the same day as Christ. Their "seal" assuring them of their eventual ascension to heaven kept them in an incorruptible, immortal state while still here on earth, preserving them in that condition until they were finally able to join the newly-resurrected saints at Christ's soon-coming return.

No, the 144 K will be drawn from LIVING Israelis when the time comes.

The "second death" was the second time that the nation of Israel had been destroyed, and their city and temple burned. Their first death occurred at the hands of the Babylonians in 586 BC. When it died for a second time in the AD 70 era, the "Lake of Fire" in Jerusalem itself burned up everything within the city again. God threw Death and Hades - the grave - into this Lake of Fire at the time. Somehow, the wicked dead up until that point were judged and perished during that conflagration. God called Jerusalem a "furnace of fire" back in Isaiah 31:9. It was the same "furnace of fire" in which there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth for those whom Christ had eaten and drunk with while on earth, and taught in their streets.

HORSE FEATHERS!
The first death is when one's mortal body dies. The 2nd death will be for the lost when they're cast into hell.

And there is more than just a single GWT judgment. There will be another one in our future as well for those who have died since the last GWT judgment in AD 70.

NONSENSE!
There was NO GWT judgment in 70 AD. A pox upon whoever taught you such garbage! The Revelation was given in the 90s AD, & the GWT judgment was still future then, same as it is now.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

This is an odd criticism for those who usually accuse Preterists of interpreting everything in a spiritual sense, with no consideration given to a literal interpretation as a general rule.

What does this mean? I am not really a futurist if that's what you're thinking. I'm not really a preterist, either. Both preterists and futurists are too extreme in their interpretations. As Revelation 1:19 indicates, the book is about things that happened in the past, things that were happening at the time, things that would continue happening and things that would happen in the future. So, that's the approach I take to eschatology in general. And we have to try to interpret any given passage in context without bringing in any assumptions that the text is literal or figurative.

Why is this a problem for you all of a sudden if I as a Preterist understand the one-time-only death experience of Christ to equal the one-time-only death experience for all mankind? I should think you would applaud my literal interpretation of these words, especially when scripture is directly comparing these two things.

What do you mean "all of a sudden"? I've never interpreted Hebrews 9:27 the way you do. Why would I applaud you for what I see as being a false interpretation of a verse? Are you for real?

It's a problem when you interpret a verse in such a way that contradicts other scripture and that's what I believe you're doing in the case of Hebrews 9:27.

The context of Joel dictates what he meant by "all people". It was going to be "all people" without discrimination as to gender, social standing or nationality, or age - not "all people" in the entire globe without exception at the time. Context.

Yes, we have to interpret it in context and in such a way that doesn't contradict other scripture instead of assuming it's talking about literally all people. Same goes for Hebrews 9:27. Looking at the verse in isolation, it can seem to be saying that literally all people have to die once. But interpreting it that way contradicts other scripture, so it can't possibly mean that.

Sometimes scripture says things that are generally true or true most of the time, but there are exceptions. And it doesn't always spell that out. Hebrews 9:27 is one example of that.

 

[robycop3]

The promise is that not a single one of the saints will stay asleep in the grave. It doesn't promise that some of them won't pass through the physical death process.

You've been shown that's completely wrong by others besides myself, but you persist in that nonsense anyway, taking some mens' trash over GOD'S WORD.

It's just like Jesus once told Martha, "Whosoever liveth and believeth in me in no wise shall die forever" (John 11:26). This was not a promise that the living saints could avoid the physical death process altogether. It was a promise that death would not claim their dead bodies in the grave forever.

And it applies to dead Christians.[/B]

I have already covered with you why God allowed this one man to be the only scripture example of a man ever to be translated so that he should not see death. Enoch / Melchizedek was the unique example of a deathless high priest so that he could be established as the "order of Melchizedek". The unique one-and-only example of a deathless person would then become a fulfilled anti-type in Christ, our Great High Priest, who was established after the order of Melchizedek, and not after the Levitical priesthood.

More nonsense. JESUS, not Enoch, was Melchizedek.

What kind of special type would that have supplied, if multiplied billions of people would later be translated so as not to see death? That wouldn't have provided any kind of unique type at all, if that were the case. We only needed the single translation example of Enoch / Melchizedek to provide the deathless high priest type for Christ who would be the unique fulfillment of this unique example.

You keep trying to nolly what Paul wrote at Jesus' command, but it won't work. If God's word can endure through the assaults of the RCC & countless pagans & antichrists, it'll certainly endure against YOUR puny efforts.

I am denying your interpretation of scripture, which creates an internal contradiction with Hebrews 9:27. Any first-grader can see that this is what you are doing.

No, you're denying Scripture that doesn't fit your fairy-tale doctrine.

I am quoting Jesus and the scriptures, not any other man's opinion. I don't get my doctrine from other men. I get it straight from the pages of scripture compared with itself.

Then why don't you believe what Paul wrote, that Peter called "Scripture"?

 

[robycop3]

Wrong. I am not ignoring the word "alive". I already gave an example of the seamstress Dorcas / Tabitha whom Peter presented "ALIVE" to her companions after he had raised her from the dead.

Peter didn't raise her-JESUS did. And she later died again.

If you have no idea what I am talking about, then you haven't looked into a word study in this Greek term "Perileipomenoi" yet. Try that first, and then present an argument on this point. If Paul was only speaking of those who were "ALIVE" who had not yet died, then he wouldn't even have bothered using the "remaining" word at all to describe these individuals. He would simply have said "We who are alive shall be caught up..." But he didn't say that. He included the "remaining" term, which has a distinct meaning in this context that changes the traditional thinking of what the "rapture" would entail.

OH, PSHAW! WHAT HOOEY!
My parents both died, but I'm still living. I was an only child. Therefore, I REMAINED the last Roby of the family until my first son was born.
If so many Christians have died, those still living are REMAINING. How common-sense is that?

 

[DavidPT]

If you have no idea what I am talking about, then you haven't looked into a word study in this Greek term "Perileipomenoi" yet. Try that first, and then present an argument on this point. If Paul was only speaking of those who were "ALIVE" who had not yet died, then he wouldn't even have bothered using the "remaining" word at all to describe these individuals. He would simply have said "We who are alive shall be caught up..." But he didn't say that. He included the "remaining" term, which has a distinct meaning in this context that changes the traditional thinking of what the "rapture" would entail.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


perileipw
perileipo
per-ee-li'-po
from peri - peri 4012 and leipw - leipo 3007; to leave all around, i.e. (passively) survive:--remain.


It's real simple. Some survive unto the coming of the Lord, and some don't. The ones that don't are the ones sleeping in Christ. The ones that do are the ones who remain alive all the way up unto the coming of the Lord.

You argue, had the text not included the 'remain' portion, that would support what we are arguing. Except I'm surprised you even suggested that, because, remember---your interpretation of Hebrews 9:27 and all. Even if Paul had omitted 'remain', therefore, it supporting what we arguing, it would still contradict your interpretation of Hebrews 9:27.

Obviously, if the change recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 also applies to those still alive at the last trump, and that they go from mortal to immortal, and that they can't be both mortal and immortal at the same time, that technically means that the mortal aspect has died, thus they have put off mortality and have put on immortality. They go from death to life since mortals can still die, immortals can't. There are 2 aspects of that, though. One goes from death to life, spiritually, meaning when they are initially saved while still physically alive. Then one goes from death to life, literally, when the last trump sounds. And this includes both the dead and those still physically alive at the time.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Evidently, that gent has read some goofy book by some quack author, or has some quack for a guru, teaching him fantasies. I hope it's not harming his relationship with Jesus! He also believes Satan was banished & the millenium was ongoing in 70 AD, all in keeping with some false preterist garbage. That's reflected in his username on this board.
Scripture should be believed LITERALLY AS POSSIBLE. I realize there's some symbolism in it, such as the sharp sword coming from Jesus' mouth in Rev. 19, which is obvious, as almost all the Scriptural symbolism is, but there's not any hint of symbolism in 1 Thess. 4:14-17. Thus, it should be believed as Paul wrote it.
Rev. 3:10 shows that the rapture, or "translation", as some people prefer, will occur before the great trib sets in. While it was written to the church in Philadelphia, I believe Jesus meant His words to all seven of those old churches for modern ones as well, as all seven types of them exist today.
There will be "trib saints" after the rapture, people who will realize the rapture has occurred, & will come to Jesus, but they'll hafta undergo the trib, & mant will die in it, or be killed by the antichrist's "security force".
As I told the other gent, yes, it's appointed for all men to die once, but he admits Enoch didn't die, and to remember that men were appointed by GOD to die once, but GOD can also UN-appoint as He chooses. Thus, the Christians living when the rapture occurs won't die.

Since Jesus is coming as a thief in the night, and thieves in the night are never seen coming, it cannot literally mean every eye in the world will visibly see Him.
Secondly, Jesus prays to the Father to give Him the glory He had before the foundation of the world then tells us He is coming in His glory and the glory of the Father. What does that look like?

The Sanhedrin is told that "from now on they would see Him sitting at the right hand of God and coming in the clouds of heaven." Explain how they saw Him sitting at the right hand of God and coming in the clouds of heaven.