Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[robycop3]

Yes, that is what He told the disciples. "...And if I go, I will come again and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also." This was Christ leaving this earth for heaven, and taking the resurrected saints with Him, including those disciples He was speaking to at the time. Paul's 1 Thessalonians 4 text about the "rapture" speaks of the resurrected saints meeting the Lord together in the air, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord". Do you really think the resurrected saints were to rise out of their graves, meet the Lord in the air, and then drop back down to earth again, just so that Christ could rule with His two feet on the ground on that occasion? What would be the purpose of meeting Him in the air, if not to go dwell with Him in heaven?

Christ Jesus is perfectly capable of ruling the nations from heaven with a rod of iron. Do you really think that this world's events are not under the control of the One who created it? I don't. He is longsuffering with mankind's rebellious nature, and is working constantly to built His kingdom on this earth, one converted sinner at a time, in spite of mankind's ability to create evil.

As for the Mount of Olives breaking apart with the mountain "leaning" in all directions as Zechariah 14 prophesied, gravity would drag all that broken mountain rubble downhill, where it would naturally "block up" the Kidron Valley, as it did once before in King Uzziah's days, (also as Zechariah mentioned in the LXX). What did you think, that the Mount of Olives would end up looking like a mammoth "V" formation, without gravity breaking all that dislodged material apart and then having it roll downhill? Isaac Newton would be shaking his head at your interpretation.

Sorry, Sir; you or some one else made all your Scriptural interps up.
What part of "We shall not all sleep" don't you understand?
Jesus shall be here physically, visibly, & in person ruling with a rod of iron, as Rev. 19:11-21 plainlt shows.
And no, He has NOT already returned, or we'd all know it by empirical evidence!

 

[Timtofly]

According to Jesus's own definition in John 7:38-39 of what Zechariah 14:8's "living waters" actually were (the Holy Spirit like a fountain coming out of the believers under the New Covenant), the rivers coming out of New Jerusalem are indeed flowing today and will continue flowing in the future. You and I both contribute to that flow, since we both have the indwelling Spirit that we spread to others by our witness. As you have said, this did not originate with AD 70. It originated when the New Covenant was launched with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. It was a river that continued to flow before, during, and after the AD 70 destruction of the Old Jerusalem.

Your New Jerusalem exist now as Paradise and Moses and Elijah have always enjoyed Paradise while not here on earth. And those two Rivers will flow out of Jerusalem 1,000 years physically before the New Jerusalem arrives.

You can "borrow" the spiritual application, but you cannot change physical reality.

 

[3 Resurrections]

What part of "We shall not all sleep" don't you understand?

"We shall not all sleep" meant that NONE of us shall sleep, but all the dead bodies of the saints will be changed in a resurrection. There were no exceptions for any dead saints which would be left behind in the grave. All would be changed to the incorruptible when they were raised from the grave.

It's the same way John used the same type of phrasing in 1 John 2:19 when speaking about the antichrists that had gone out from among the church, "that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." This meant that NONE of the antichrists were counted as being in true fellowship with the church. There were no exceptions. All of those antichrists were included in the group which did not really belong in fellowship with the church.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Your New Jerusalem exist now as Paradise

No, the New Jerusalem was a spiritual reality which came down from heaven to the earth. It is the reality under the New Covenant which all believers are part of today. The New Jerusalem is not Paradise (which was the after-life reality that the spirit of Christ shared with the crucified, repentant thief that very day). And Paradise is not heaven, since the resurrected Christ whose spirit had just been in Paradise told Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father in heaven, but was going to do so.

Since that First resurrection day in AD 33, the spirits of the dead saints no longer go to Paradise, but directly to heaven. "Absent from the body...present with the Lord", as Paul said. The dead who died in the Lord were blessed "from henceforth" after that time (Revelation 14:13), because they no longer went to Paradise from that time on, but directly to heaven, since Christ had opened up the way for the spirits of the saints to get there at His ascension.

And those two Rivers will flow out of Jerusalem 1,000 years physically before the New Jerusalem arrives.

You can "borrow" the spiritual application, but you cannot change physical reality.

Christ in John 7:38-39 did not interpret Zechariah 14:8's "living waters" as a physical reality. He interpreted those "living waters" as being the Holy Spirit - a fountain of water springing up within the believers after the Holy Spirit came to dwell within them. If your interpretation of Zechariah's "living waters" does not match Christ's description of what spiritual reality they represent, then I will have to reject your interpretation.

 

[Timtofly]

No, the New Jerusalem was a spiritual reality which came down from heaven to the earth. It is the reality under the New Covenant which all believers are part of today. The New Jerusalem is not Paradise (which was the after-life reality that the spirit of Christ shared with the crucified, repentant thief that very day). And Paradise is not heaven, since the resurrected Christ whose spirit had just been in Paradise told Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father in heaven, but was going to do so.

Since that First resurrection day in AD 33, the spirits of the dead saints no longer go to Paradise, but directly to heaven. "Absent from the body...present with the Lord", as Paul said. The dead who died in the Lord were blessed "from henceforth" after that time (Revelation 14:13), because they no longer went to Paradise from that time on, but directly to heaven, since Christ had opened up the way for the spirits of the saints to get there at His ascension.



Christ in John 7:38-39 did not interpret Zechariah 14:8's "living waters" as a physical reality. He interpreted those "living waters" as being the Holy Spirit - a fountain of water springing up within the believers after the Holy Spirit came to dwell within them. If your interpretation of Zechariah's "living waters" does not match Christ's description of what spiritual reality they represent, then I will have to reject your interpretation.

You can argue with Paul what Paradise is. 2 Corinthians 12:2-4


"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth. ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth. ) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."



There is a spiritual application for any literal prophecy.

 

[3 Resurrections]

There is a spiritual application for any literal prophecy.

I've already said much the same thing. Zechariah's spiritual "living waters" which Jesus said was the Holy Spirit within each believer was the spiritual anti-type fulfillment of what used to be the physical "living water" of the Gihon Spring channeled to flow for Jerusalem's physical temple's need for ritually-pure water. The physical Gihon Spring and the physical temple back then under OT law was superseded by the spiritual reality of the Holy Spirit's "living waters" in the spiritual New Jerusalem, which is composed of "living stones" such as you and me. First the natural, then that which is spiritual.

You can argue with Paul what Paradise is. 2 Corinthians 12:2-4
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth. ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth. ) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

This man which Paul knew that experienced this being "caught away" to the third heaven and who was also "caught away" to Paradise I believe was the beloved Lazarus - not Paul himself, since Paul denied that he was the one which could boast of this experience. Lazarus's spirit was indeed "caught away to Paradise" before Jesus bodily resurrected him from the grave 4 days later.

I also believe the beloved disciple Lazarus was the one who was the author of Revelation, who in visions was "caught away to the third heaven" and recorded those Revelation visions for us. I repeat; scripture makes a distinction between Paradise and heaven where God dwells. Two different places, since Jesus's spirit was in Paradise for 3 days and nights before He ascended to the Father for the first time in His resurrected body.

 

[robycop3]

"We shall not all sleep" meant that NONE of us shall sleep, but all the dead bodies of the saints will be changed in a resurrection. There were no exceptions for any dead saints which would be left behind in the grave. All would be changed to the incorruptible when they were raised from the grave.

It's the same way John used the same type of phrasing in 1 John 2:19 when speaking about the antichrists that had gone out from among the church, "that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." This meant that NONE of the antichrists were counted as being in true fellowship with the church. There were no exceptions. All of those antichrists were included in the group which did not really belong in fellowship with the church.

Sir, with all due respect, WHY DO YOU TRY TO CHANGE THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE????
"We shall not all sleep" means EXACTLY THAT ! It means that, when the rapture occurs, the saints still living will be called up immediately after those who will be resurrected. You're just trying to change it to try to fit the false pret hooey. I don't believe a word you write in that regard, as I KNOW-not GUESS-that preterism is false.

 

[robycop3]

No, the New Jerusalem was a spiritual reality which came down from heaven to the earth. It is the reality under the New Covenant which all believers are part of today. The New Jerusalem is not Paradise (which was the after-life reality that the spirit of Christ shared with the crucified, repentant thief that very day). And Paradise is not heaven, since the resurrected Christ whose spirit had just been in Paradise told Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father in heaven, but was going to do so.

Since that First resurrection day in AD 33, the spirits of the dead saints no longer go to Paradise, but directly to heaven. "Absent from the body...present with the Lord", as Paul said. The dead who died in the Lord were blessed "from henceforth" after that time (Revelation 14:13), because they no longer went to Paradise from that time on, but directly to heaven, since Christ had opened up the way for the spirits of the saints to get there at His ascension.



Christ in John 7:38-39 did not interpret Zechariah 14:8's "living waters" as a physical reality. He interpreted those "living waters" as being the Holy Spirit - a fountain of water springing up within the believers after the Holy Spirit came to dwell within them. If your interpretation of Zechariah's "living waters" does not match Christ's description of what spiritual reality they represent, then I will have to reject your interpretation.

Sorry, but your "take " of the Scriptures involved is horse feathers.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Sir, with all due respect, WHY DO YOU TRY TO CHANGE THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE????
"We shall not all sleep" means EXACTLY THAT ! It means that, when the rapture occurs, the saints still living will be called up immediately after those who will be resurrected.

I'm not changing the meaning of scripture at all. The way you are interpreting this phrase "we shall not all sleep" as if it said "not every one of us shall sleep, because some won't die" - this runs completely contradictory to Hebrews 9:27 which says that ALL are appointed to die ONCE. There are no translation-type changes coming for the bodies of those saints who have never died yet. Nobody gets off this planet without passing through the physical death process - even at Christ's return.

I have showed you how the phrasing "we shall not all sleep" duplicates the very same phrase "they were not all of us" in 1 John 2:19. Are you ready to be consistent with your manner of interpreting this phrase by admitting that some of the antichrists mentioned in 1 John 2:19 really belonged to the true fellowship of the church? That there were some righteous exceptions to that whole group of antichrists which had left the church? Because that is the position you have to adopt if "not all" means there are exceptions to the rule involved.

 

[robycop3]

I'm not changing the meaning of scripture at all. The way you are interpreting this phrase "we shall not all sleep" as if it said "not every one of us shall sleep, because some won't die" - this runs completely contradictory to Hebrews 9:27 which says that ALL are appointed to die ONCE. There are no translation-type changes coming for the bodies of those saints who have never died yet. Nobody gets off this planet without passing through the physical death process - even at Christ's return.

I have showed you how the phrasing "we shall not all sleep" duplicates the very same phrase "they were not all of us" in 1 John 2:19. Are you ready to be consistent with your manner of interpreting this phrase by admitting that some of the antichrists mentioned in 1 John 2:19 really belonged to the true fellowship of the church? That there were some righteous exceptions to that whole group of antichrists which had left the church? Because that is the position you have to adopt if "not all" means there are exceptions to the rule involved.

Oh, Pshaw!
Enoch & Elijah didn't die. But I'm sure some pret has made up a story trying to deny that fact of Scripture.

And "We shall not all sleep" means JUST THAT, same as "They were not all of us" means just that.

And you're ignoring the rest of 1 Cor. 15:51-but we shall all be changed.

Now, if you choose to believe pret fairy tales over God's word, that's YOUR choice. I have done, and will continue, to do my job of warning against such hooey.

 

[3 Resurrections]

And you're ignoring the rest of 1 Cor. 15:51-but we shall all be changed.

No, I'm not ignoring that point. That IS the point. Paul said that WHEN that change happened, all the DEAD saints would be raised incorruptible, and the change of their DEAD bodies would take place for all of them. WHEN that change took place of the DEAD being raised incorruptible, THEN the saying would be fulfilled that DEATH is swallowed up in victory. That is, DEATH in the grave being swallowed up. None of this describes the living being translated - this is only some man's invention that mass groups of saints who have never died will somehow simply be translated at Christ's return. Which would contradict the rule of Hebrews 9:27 that ALL must die the one time.

Elijah was not taken into the third heaven to God's presence at his whirlwind transport. He was only taken into the skies of the first atmospheric heaven and transported to another location on earth. From that location, he wrote the letter to King Jehoram some ten years later (2 Chronicles 21:12). Elijah died just like all other men.

Enoch is the lone exception in all of human history of a person who was translated that he should not see his own physical death. I believe God used this single man Enoch to become introduced to us later as the deathless Melchizedek with "no end of days": the "priest of the most high God", and the "King of Salem", or "King of Peace". Enoch / Melchizedek served as the unique type of a deathless high priesthood to become the "order of Melchizedek" into which Christ would be established as our deathless Great High Priest. We don't need more than one single man to serve as a type of this deathless order of high priest, so that Christ could become the antitype fulfillment of this. The unique deathless high priest Enoch / Melchizedek was the type of the unique deathless Great High Priest Christ Jesus.

And "We shall not all sleep" means JUST THAT, same as "They were not all of us" means just that.

Glad you can agree with me on this point. NONE of those antichrists in 1 John belonged in fellowship with the church. They left the church, and in doing so proved that ALL of them who left (without a single exception) were not of the assembly's true membership.

As you have agreed, this is the same as the 1 Corinthians 15:51 "not all" sleeping which meant that NONE of them would remain asleep in the grave, but that they would ALL be changed from the DEAD corruptible state into the incorruptible, immortal condition, resulting in DEATH in the grave being swallowed up in victory by this changing process.

 

[robycop3]

No, I'm not ignoring that point. That IS the point. Paul said that WHEN that change happened, all the DEAD saints would be raised incorruptible, and the change of their DEAD bodies would take place for all of them. WHEN that change took place of the DEAD being raised incorruptible, THEN the saying would be fulfilled that DEATH is swallowed up in victory. That is, DEATH in the grave being swallowed up. None of this describes the living being translated - this is only some man's invention that mass groups of saints who have never died will somehow simply be translated at Christ's return. Which would contradict the rule of Hebrews 9:27 that ALL must die the one time.

NO ! Paul wrote that WE-all the saints-WILL ALL BE CHANGED! That includes all who will still be living at the time, of course!

Elijah was not taken into the third heaven to God's presence at his whirlwind transport. He was only taken into the skies of the first atmospheric heaven and transported to another location on earth. From that location, he wrote the letter to King Jehoram some ten years later (2 Chronicles 21:12). Elijah died just like all other men.

After a little research, I agree you may well be right on this one. But then, God can appoint & un-appoint as He chooses. For instance, He appointed Saul king of Israel, but, when Saul turned to sin, God un-appointed him in favor of David. And again, there's the example of Enoch.

Enoch is the lone exception in all of human history of a person who was translated that he should not see his own physical death. I believe God used this single man Enoch to become introduced to us later as the deathless Melchizedek with "no end of days": the "priest of the most high God", and the "King of Salem", or "King of Peace". Enoch / Melchizedek served as the unique type of a deathless high priesthood to become the "order of Melchizedek" into which Christ would be established as our deathless Great High Priest. We don't need more than one single man to serve as a type of this deathless order of high priest, so that Christ could become the antitype fulfillment of this. The unique deathless high priest Enoch / Melchizedek was the type of the unique deathless Great High Priest Christ Jesus.

Mel might well have been Jesus. After all, there can only be ONE High Priest. And if God can take Enoch, why can't He take other saints as He chooses, without their dying?

Glad you can agree with me on this point. NONE of those antichrists in 1 John belonged in fellowship with the church. They left the church, and in doing so proved that ALL of them who left (without a single exception) were not of the assembly's true membership.

Then, you should agree with me, that not all the saints shall die, just as Paul was told to write by Jesus.

As you have agreed, this is the same as the 1 Corinthians 15:51 "not all" sleeping which meant that NONE of them would remain asleep in the grave, but that they would ALL be changed from the DEAD corruptible state into the incorruptible, immortal condition, resulting in DEATH in the grave being swallowed up in victory by this changing process.

You're acting as if no saints will be alive on earth! Nowhere does Scripture say that! Those still living at the rapture will be changed without dying, & THAT'S THAT!
There'll be other saints, the "trib saints" who will realize the rapture has occurred, & will call on Jesus for salvation.

 

[3 Resurrections]

NO ! Paul wrote that WE-all the saints-WILL ALL BE CHANGED! That includes all who will still be living at the time, of course!

No, Paul's context in 1 Corinthians 15 described the change for all the DEAD saints - not a change for the living who had never died. You are adding that to the context, because you want it to be there. It's not. If you add your part about the living being changed without passing through the natural physical death process, then you have flat-out contradicted Hebrews 9:27. Are you comfortable doing that? Because I'm not. "The scriptures cannot be broken". There are no internal contradictions in it. If your argument creates a contradiction, then something is wrong somewhere in your proposed interpretation.

You're acting as if no saints will be alive on earth! Nowhere does Scripture say that!

No, I have not said that no saints will be alive when Christ returns again in our future. What I am saying is that nobody on earth is going to survive the fully-manifested glory of Christ's next appearance - neither believers nor unbelievers. Our God is a consuming fire, you know. No man in the natural state can look upon Him and live through the experience, just as we cannot look fully at the sun without blinding ourselves.

At the final coming of Christ in our future, God intends to purge all human evil out of this planet for all time. The only way He can do this is for all humanity to pass through physical death on that occasion, in fulfillment of the one-time death appointment for all men in Hebrews 9:27. After this, He will give the promised bodily resurrection to His saints. The wicked are promised only a "resurrection to damnation" or a resurrection resulting in their destruction, both body and soul. As Isaiah 26:14 once said of the ungodly, "They are dead; they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise". But for the righteous who are God's children, Isaiah 26:19 said, "Thy dead men shall live; together with my dead body shall they arise."

You yourself have said that you believe Christ will dwell physically on earth at His return in the future. I agree this is true. God "created this world not in vain. He formed it to be inhabited". But that will only happen after He has purged it completely of the presence of human evil to render this world a fit dwelling place where ONLY righteousness exists.

Sorry, robycop3. I know you would like some kind of an escape clause from the death process, but it ain't happening for anybody.

 

[robycop3]

No, Paul's context in 1 Corinthians 15 described the change for all the DEAD saints - not a change for the living who had never died. You are adding that to the context, because you want it to be there. It's not. If you add your part about the living being changed without passing through the natural physical death process, then you have flat-out contradicted Hebrews 9:27. Are you comfortable doing that? Because I'm not. "The scriptures cannot be broken". There are no internal contradictions in it. If your argument creates a contradiction, then something is wrong somewhere in your proposed interpretation.

What part of "We shall not all sleep(die)" can't you understand? You admit Enoch didn't die. Again, you're trying to change the meaning of a passage of Scripture to make it fit some pret garbage. I don't believe a word you say in that regard, & I doubt too many others do, either.

No, I have not said that no saints will be alive when Christ returns again in our future. What I am saying is that nobody on earth is going to survive the fully-manifested glory of Christ's next appearance - neither believers nor unbelievers. Our God is a consuming fire, you know. No man in the natural state can look upon Him and live through the experience, just as we cannot look fully at the sun without blinding ourselves.

So you don't believe Jesus where He said that every eye will see Him?

At the final coming of Christ in our future, God intends to purge all human evil out of this planet for all time. The only way He can do this is for all humanity to pass through physical death on that occasion, in fulfillment of the one-time death appointment for all men in Hebrews 9:27. After this, He will give the promised bodily resurrection to His saints. The wicked are promised only a "resurrection to damnation" or a resurrection resulting in their destruction, both body and soul. As Isaiah 26:14 once said of the ungodly, "They are dead; they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise". But for the righteous who are God's children, Isaiah 26:19 said, "Thy dead men shall live; together with my dead body shall they arise."

Wrong again. Going to hell will be the 2nd death as Rev. 20:14 says. And several verses say the souls in hell will be tormented there FOR EVER.

You yourself have said that you believe Christ will dwell physically on earth at His return in the future. I agree this is true. God "created this world not in vain. He formed it to be inhabited". But that will only happen after He has purged it completely of the presence of human evil to render this world a fit dwelling place where ONLY righteousness exists.

But He shall rule the nations with a rod of iron. And those who shall be born in the millenium will still hafta come to Jesus in belief & repentance.

Sorry, robycop3. I know you would like some kind of an escape clause from the death process, but it ain't happening for anybody.

I believe SCRIPTURE, not your pret trash.

 

[3 Resurrections]

What part of "We shall not all sleep(die)" can't you understand?

I understand that Paul was saying that NONE of the saints would stay asleep in the grave. Their DEAD bodies would ALL be changed from that DEAD status to one of an incorruptible, immortal condition. This would result in the fulfillment of the saying that DEATH would be swallowed up in victory. No translation-type change for the living is described in this process. That is an invention of tradition that contradicts Hebrews 9:27 with everyone appointed to die the one time. My interpretation reconciles these two passages. Your interpretation creates an internal contradiction in scripture. You are the one with the created problem of explaining why your interpretation doesn't reconcile these two passages.

So you don't believe Jesus where He said that every eye will see Him?

You and I have gone over this very point before, if you remember. The text itself explains that the "every eye" which would see Christ's return would be specifically "those who pierced Him". You have then countered with the statement, "Well, that would mean the very Jews who pierced Christ would have to see Him returning from their viewpoint while in Hades because they died before AD 70. And I agreed that those who had died before then actually did see the returning Christ from Hades, because Hades was thrown into the Lake of Fire. And that "furnace of fire" with the weeping and gnashing of teeth going on was in Jerusalem, as Isaiah 31:9 once said. God used that location to judge the wicked dead in AD 70, because Death and Hades were both thrown into that Lake of Fire in Jerusalem.

Wrong again. Going to hell will be the 2nd death as Rev. 20:14 says.

You aren't reading the language carefully enough. Revelation 20:14 never says that going to Hell is the second death. It says that Death and Hades (the grave) were going to be thrown INTO the Lake of Fire, which Lake of Fire itself is the second death. This was the second time with almost the same duplicating circumstances when Jerusalem, the temple, and the nation died by being burned up, just like it did under the Babylonian invasion in 586 BC. Anyone who reads the language of Lamentations realizes that this is essentially a funeral dirge for Jerusalem the temple, and the nation. Death and Hell would come to the city back then also, as Isaiah 28:18 once prophesied for the rulers in Jerusalem. God resurrected Jerusalem, the temple, and the nation in the post-exilic return, only for all of this to die a second time in the AD 70 era - this time to be permanently thrown down.

And several verses say the souls in hell will be tormented there FOR EVER.

The word "forever" is not necessarily describing perpetuity in every case it is mentioned. For instance, when Isiah described the desolation of the land of Israel in Isaiah 32:14-15: "Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens FOR EVER, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; UNTIL the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field...". In this case, "forever" lasts until a specified, appointed time.

Same thing with "for ever" in Revelation 20:10, (which torment was to take place while day and night were still in existence). The actual Greek there is "to the ages of the ages", which matches "the ends of the ages" which Paul said had already arrived in his generation at that time (1 Corinthians 10:11) and the "consummation of the ages" in Hebrews 9:26 that was "NOW" in place at that time.

But He shall rule the nations with a rod of iron. And those who shall be born in the millenium will still hafta come to Jesus in belief & repentance.

That "rod" (rhabdo) is a shepherd's staff with which Christ rules. The iron that this shepherd's staff is composed of pictures its unbreakable, durable rule, (superior to a wooden shepherd's staff), which is capable of protecting His flock from any predators, and breaking the nations to pieces with it. The Revelation 12:5 verse said that Christ "is about to rule all nations with a rod of iron" - starting in John's days - not our future.

And your timing of the millennium is way off, according to John. He said Satan's loosing for a "short time" was when the millennium had "expired" and was "finished". And that "short time" of Satan's release on earth had already begun even before John was writing Revelation, according to Revelation 12:12, because even then, a loosed Satan knew he only had a "short time" left to operate in those first-century days.

 

[robycop3]

I understand that Paul was saying that NONE of the saints would stay asleep in the grave. Their DEAD bodies would ALL be changed from that DEAD status to one of an incorruptible, immortal condition. This would result in the fulfillment of the saying that DEATH would be swallowed up in victory. No translation-type change for the living is described in this process. That is an invention of tradition that contradicts Hebrews 9:27 with everyone appointed to die the one time. My interpretation reconciles these two passages. Your interpretation creates an internal contradiction in scripture. You are the one with the created problem of explaining why your interpretation doesn't reconcile these two passages.



You and I have gone over this very point before, if you remember. The text itself explains that the "every eye" which would see Christ's return would be specifically "those who pierced Him". You have then countered with the statement, "Well, that would mean the very Jews who pierced Christ would have to see Him returning from their viewpoint while in Hades because they died before AD 70. And I agreed that those who had died before then actually did see the returning Christ from Hades, because Hades was thrown into the Lake of Fire. And that "furnace of fire" with the weeping and gnashing of teeth going on was in Jerusalem, as Isaiah 31:9 once said. God used that location to judge the wicked dead in AD 70, because Death and Hades were both thrown into that Lake of Fire in Jerusalem.



You aren't reading the language carefully enough. Revelation 20:14 never says that going to Hell is the second death. It says that Death and Hades (the grave) were going to be thrown INTO the Lake of Fire, which Lake of Fire itself is the second death. This was the second time with almost the same duplicating circumstances when Jerusalem, the temple, and the nation died by being burned up, just like it did under the Babylonian invasion in 586 BC. Anyone who reads the language of Lamentations realizes that this is essentially a funeral dirge for Jerusalem the temple, and the nation. Death and Hell would come to the city back then also, as Isaiah 28:18 once prophesied for the rulers in Jerusalem. God resurrected Jerusalem, the temple, and the nation in the post-exilic return, only for all of this to die a second time in the AD 70 era - this time to be permanently thrown down.



The word "forever" is not necessarily describing perpetuity in every case it is mentioned. For instance, when Isiah described the desolation of the land of Israel in Isaiah 32:14-15: "Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens FOR EVER, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; UNTIL the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field...". In this case, "forever" lasts until a specified, appointed time.

Same thing with "for ever" in Revelation 20:10, (which torment was to take place while day and night were still in existence). The actual Greek there is "to the ages of the ages", which matches "the ends of the ages" which Paul said had already arrived in his generation at that time (1 Corinthians 10:11) and the "consummation of the ages" in Hebrews 9:26 that was "NOW" in place at that time.




That "rod" (rhabdo) is a shepherd's staff with which Christ rules. The iron that this shepherd's staff is composed of pictures its unbreakable, durable rule, (superior to a wooden shepherd's staff), which is capable of protecting His flock from any predators, and breaking the nations to pieces with it. The Revelation 12:5 verse said that Christ "is about to rule all nations with a rod of iron" - starting in John's days - not our future.

And your timing of the millennium is way off, according to John. He said Satan's loosing for a "short time" was when the millennium had "expired" and was "finished". And that "short time" of Satan's release on earth had already begun even before John was writing Revelation, according to Revelation 12:12, because even then, a loosed Satan knew he only had a "short time" left to operate in those first-century days.

Most of your stuff is incorrect in your last post. Paul simply wrote, "We shall not all sleep", which any sensible person, knowing Paul meant 'die' when he wrote 'sleep' means that not all saints shall die. Making up another meaning for what Paul wrote, at Jesus' direction, is wrong.
And "every eye" means JUST THAT ! Jesus did NOT say"every eye EXCEPT..." He included even those who pierced Him, showing they'd see His return from hades.
And, NO, death & hades were NOT thrown into the LOF at that time. PEOPLE STILL DIE, of course ! And the souls of the dead still go to hades,either to its paradise area or its torments area. And the LOF is NOT in Jerusalem. That's nonsense.
And the LOF is the 2nd death for all who will be cast into it, & it'll be permanent, as Scripture says.
Jerusalem isn't mentioned AT ALL in Isaiah 32. the last place emntioned, in Isaiah 31, is Assyria. And Jerusalem has never been deserted, even when destroyed. And there's NO END mentioned for the LOF.
And "a rod of iron" has signified a strict rule for millenia. And Jesus has NOT yet ruled the nations with a ROI.
And Satan has NEVER yet been banished, let alone released from banishment. The prevalence of sin is clear, empirical evidence of that!

I don't know who's been filling your head with all that nonsensical, Scripture-denying jazz, but you really need to drop them like a dose of covid!

 

[Spiritual Jew]

"We shall not all sleep" meant that NONE of us shall sleep, but all the dead bodies of the saints will be changed in a resurrection.

This is one of the worst interpretations of scripture that I've ever seen. No, it means that we will not all sleep/die, just like it says. It's very straightforward. You are only able to keep your doctrine afloat by twisting scripture and taking simple, straightforward claims like what Paul said in 1 Cor 15:51 and turning them into a convoluted mess. It's shameful.

Paul confirmed that we (believers) will not all sleep/die in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 when He indicated that at Christ's return the dead in Christ will be resurrected and they will be gathered to meet Christ "in the air" along with those who "are alive and remain". So, the ones who are alive and remain until His return don't die. Instead, they are just immediately changed and then caught up along with the resurrected dead in Christ in the air to meet the Lord.

Only the dead in Christ are resurrected first and then changed. Those who are alive at the time obviously don't need to rise (be resurrected) first before being caught up to meet the Lord. This is very simple and you're still missing it, which is just unbelievable.

 

[DavidPT]

No, Paul's context in 1 Corinthians 15 described the change for all the DEAD saints - not a change for the living who had never died. You are adding that to the context, because you want it to be there. It's not. If you add your part about the living being changed without passing through the natural physical death process, then you have flat-out contradicted Hebrews 9:27. Are you comfortable doing that? Because I'm not. "The scriptures cannot be broken". There are no internal contradictions in it. If your argument creates a contradiction, then something is wrong somewhere in your proposed interpretation.

Your position on this is only valid if there is not one single saved person still physically alive when the last trump sounds. But if there are saved ppl still physically alive when the last trump sounds, they are obviously still mortal prior to the sounding of the last trump and will remain mortal forever unless they too are changed in this same twinkling of an eye. No mortal person can live forever, but someone that has been changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump certainly can.

I can see it already, Hebrews 9:27, and that, in your mind, proves that there won't be any saved ppl still physically alive when the last trump sounds, therefore, in your mind as well, my arguments are moot.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

No matter what era of time one tries to apply this to, it still means what it says, that there will be some who are still alive and remain among the living when they meet the Lord in the air. What do you propose happens to them once they meet Him in the air? He physically kills them? Going to be impossible to do that once they have put on incorruption, and have put on immortality, though. So, that's not an option.

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

As to the ones meant in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, this is their state prior to the sounding of the last trump---this corruptible--this mortal---and this is their state once the last trump sounds---have put on incorruption---have put on immortality---which then equals death is swallowed up in victory. But only in regards to the saved, not the lost as well. There is still a second death to deal with in their case, meaning the lost. But that happens during the great white throne judgment. Nothing in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 is involving the time of the great white throne judgment.

 

[robycop3]

This is one of the worst interpretations of scripture that I've ever seen. No, it means that we will not all sleep/die, just like it says. It's very straightforward. You are only able to keep your doctrine afloat by twisting scripture and taking simple, straightforward claims like what Paul said in 1 Cor 15:51 and turning them into a convoluted mess. It's shameful.

Paul confirmed that we (believers) will not all sleep/die in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 when He indicated that at Christ's return the dead in Christ will be resurrected and they will be gathered to meet Christ "in the air" along with those who "are alive and remain". So, the ones who are alive and remain until His return don't die. Instead, they are just immediately changed and then caught up along with the resurrected dead in Christ in the air to meet the Lord.

Only the dead in Christ are resurrected first and then changed. Those who are alive at the time obviously don't need to rise (be resurrected) first before being caught up to meet the Lord. This is very simple and you're still missing it, which is just unbelievable.

Evidently, that gent has read some goofy book by some quack author, or has some quack for a guru, teaching him fantasies. I hope it's not harming his relationship with Jesus! He also believes Satan was banished & the millenium was ongoing in 70 AD, all in keeping with some false preterist garbage. That's reflected in his username on this board.
Scripture should be believed LITERALLY AS POSSIBLE. I realize there's some symbolism in it, such as the sharp sword coming from Jesus' mouth in Rev. 19, which is obvious, as almost all the Scriptural symbolism is, but there's not any hint of symbolism in 1 Thess. 4:14-17. Thus, it should be believed as Paul wrote it.
Rev. 3:10 shows that the rapture, or "translation", as some people prefer, will occur before the great trib sets in. While it was written to the church in Philadelphia, I believe Jesus meant His words to all seven of those old churches for modern ones as well, as all seven types of them exist today.
There will be "trib saints" after the rapture, people who will realize the rapture has occurred, & will come to Jesus, but they'll hafta undergo the trib, & mant will die in it, or be killed by the antichrist's "security force".
As I told the other gent, yes, it's appointed for all men to die once, but he admits Enoch didn't die, and to remember that men were appointed by GOD to die once, but GOD can also UN-appoint as He chooses. Thus, the Christians living when the rapture occurs won't die.

 

[3 Resurrections]

This is one of the worst interpretations of scripture that I've ever seen. No, it means that we will not all sleep/die, just like it says. It's very straightforward. You are only able to keep your doctrine afloat by twisting scripture and taking simple, straightforward claims like what Paul said in 1 Cor 15:51 and turning them into a convoluted mess. It's shameful.

Whether you consider it "shameful" or not makes no difference. You are ignoring the very same language in 1 John 2:19 when it speaks of "NOT ALL" of the antichrists belonging among the church fellowship. The words "NOT ALL" in this context means "NONE" of those antichrists belonged among the church fellowship.

When used in 1 Corinthians 15:51, "NOT ALL" also means "NONE". NONE of the saints Paul spoke of would stay dead in the grave sleeping. They would ALL be changed from that DEAD state to the incorruptible, immortal condition. This is a simple comparison of scripture with scripture. It twists nothing, as you are assuming.

The way you interpreting this 1 Corinthians 15:51 verse to make it say that not all men will physically die, you are making it directly contradict Hebrews 9:27 where all mankind is appointed to die the one time. Why are you doing this? You are forcing scripture to contradict itself.

Paul confirmed that we (believers) will not all sleep/die in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 when He indicated that at Christ's return the dead in Christ will be resurrected and they will be gathered to meet Christ "in the air" along with those who "are alive and remain". So, the ones who are alive and remain until His return don't die. Instead, they are just immediately changed and then caught up along with the resurrected dead in Christ in the air to meet the Lord.

It wasn't those who were "alive" (who hadn't died yet) at Christ return who were to meet the Lord in the air. It was those who were "alive and REMAINED" who would meet the Lord in the air. This word in the Greek indicates a set-apart group which had been RESERVED for a length of time and for a special purpose. These "alive and remaining" saints were those who had been MADE ALIVE already by a resurrection process. Like Lazarus; like Dorcas whom Peter presented "alive" to her companions; like the Matthew 27:52-53 saints who were raised to life on Christ's resurrection day. These had all "remained" on earth in those resurrected bodies, but were not allowed to ascend to heaven yet until the 7 plagues were poured out (Revelation 15:8). They were in a reserved, set-apart category of saints which God used for the early church's benefit in those days.

You are artificially inserting a translation-type change for the living into this "rapture" text which isn't included there at all. This is an idea that is totally contrary to Hebrews 9:27 and its requirement for all mankind to die one time. Why are you doing this? You are making scripture contradict itself.