Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[Ed Parenteau]

· No more dying.
· No more crying.
· No more pain.
· No more sorrow.
· No more curse.

Here's the crux of our problem. I'm looking at it from my standing in Christ and you're looking through the eyes of the flesh
· No more dying in Christ
· No more crying in Christ
· No more pain in Christ
· No more sorrow in Christ
· No more curse in Christ
As to the rest of your post, we would have to agree on terms like the word "near" and what personal pronouns mean. For instance : "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh"

 

[sovereigngrace]

Here's the crux of our problem. I'm looking at it from my standing in Christ and you're looking through the eyes of the flesh
· No more dying in Christ
· No more crying in Christ
· No more pain in Christ
· No more sorrow in Christ
· No more curse in Christ
As to the rest of your post, we would have to agree on terms like the word "near" and what personal pronouns mean. For instance : "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh"

That is not true. I'm looking at it from my standing in Christ. I am letting the Bible speak for itself. You are not. You totally reject the comparison the Holy Spirit makes between time and eternity. Preterists have to deny that for to do so would force them to abandon their theology.

Now would you please address the avoided evidence and multiple Scriptures that forbid your position.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

That is not true. I'm looking at it from my standing in Christ. I am letting the Bible speak for itself. You are not. You totally reject the comparison the Holy Spirit makes between time and eternity. Preterists have to deny that for to do so would force them to abandon their theology.

Now would you please address the avoided evidence and multiple Scriptures that forbid your position.

Avoiding? You never even asked a question.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh

In the above, the personal pronoun "your" replaces the disciples Jesus is talking to.

Matthew 24:32Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes of the Dispersion:
James 5:7Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer awaits the precious fruit of the soil—how patient he is for the fall and spring rains 8You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door! Both in perfect indicative active which is same as this Matthew 26:45Then He returned to the disciples and said, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Why does Jesus make a direct link between the law and heaven and earth? And that heaven and earth must pass away first before any of the law passes away?

Matthew 5:17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus here states that heaven and earth passes away within that generation. Why don't you believe it?

Matthew 24:34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

In the following verse how can it be more clear that He will appear a second time to those who were presently and eagerly waiting for Him. And in the following verses we can clearly see who the Holy Spirit revealed as eagerly waiting for Him and all in the present tense.
Hebrews 9:28 V-PPM/P-DMP
28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

apekdechomai: to await eagerly
Original Word: ἀπεκδέχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apekdechomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ek-dekh'-om-ahee)
Definition: to await eagerly
Usage: I expect eagerly, wait for eagerly, look for.
Romans 8:19 V-PIM/P-3S
GRK: τοῦ θεοῦ ἀπεκδέχεται
NAS: of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing
KJV: of the creature waiteth for the manifestation
INT: of God awaits

Romans 8:23 V-PPM/P-NMP
GRK: στενάζομεν υἱοθεσίαν ἀπεκδεχόμενοι τὴν ἀπολύτρωσιν
NAS: ourselves, waiting eagerly for [our] adoption as sons,
KJV: ourselves, waiting for the adoption,
INT: groan adoption awaiting the redemption

Romans 8:25 V-PIM/P-1P
GRK: δι' ὑπομονῆς ἀπεκδεχόμεθα
NAS: with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
KJV: with patience wait for [it].
INT: in patience we await

1 Corinthians 1:7 V-PPM/P-AMP
GRK: μηδενὶ χαρίσματι ἀπεκδεχομένους τὴν ἀποκάλυψιν
NAS: gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation
KJV: no gift; waiting for the coming of our
INT: not one gift awaiting the revelation

Galatians 5:5 V-PIM/P-1P
GRK: ἐλπίδα δικαιοσύνης ἀπεκδεχόμεθα
NAS: by faith, are waiting for the hope
KJV: through the Spirit wait for the hope
INT: [the] hope of righteousness await

Philippians 3:20 V-PIM/P-1P
GRK: καὶ σωτῆρα ἀπεκδεχόμεθα κύριον Ἰησοῦν
NAS: also we eagerly wait for a Savior,
KJV: also we look for the Saviour,
INT: also [as] Savior we are awaiting [the] Lord Jesus

 

[Ed Parenteau]

In the verses where Jesus said He is coming soon, the KJV translates the Greek word "tachos" (Strong's G5034) as "quickly" instead of "soon" and I think that's a better translation of those verses. He was not saying He was literally coming soon after John wrote the book of Revelation. He was saying that when He does come, it will happen quickly. Which is what He indicated here, also:

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

When He comes, He will come so quickly that it will be as quick/fast as lightning comes from the east and shines to the west. And, as Paul indicated in 1 Thess 5:2-3, the destruction that will accompany His return will be "sudden".

I look at how the bible uses the words elsewhere.
Matthew 5:25 Adv
GRK: ἀντιδίκῳ σου ταχὺ ἕως ὅτου
NAS: Make friends quickly with your opponent
KJV: adversary quickly, whiles
INT: adversary of you quickly while which

Matthew 28:7 Adv
GRK: καὶ ταχὺ πορευθεῖσαι εἴπατε
NAS: Go quickly and tell His disciples
KJV: And go quickly, and tell his
INT: And quickly having gone say

Matthew 28:8 Adv
GRK: καὶ ἀπελθοῦσαι ταχὺ ἀπὸ τοῦ
NAS: the tomb quickly with fear
KJV: they departed quickly from
INT: And having gone out quickly from the

Mark 9:39 Adv
GRK: καὶ δυνήσεται ταχὺ κακολογῆσαί με
NAS: and be able soon afterward to speak evil
KJV: that can lightly speak evil of me.
INT: and be able readily to speak evil of me

Luke 15:22 Adv
GRK: δούλους αὐτοῦ Ταχὺ ἐξενέγκατε στολὴν
NAS: to his slaves, 'Quickly bring
INT: servants of him quickly Bring out robe

John 11:29 Adv
GRK: ἤκουσεν ἠγέρθη ταχὺ καὶ ἤρχετο
NAS: it, she got up quickly and was coming
KJV: [that], she arose quickly, and
INT: she heard rises up quickly and comes

If you think that Revelation 1:1-3 is implying that everything John wrote about would literally happen soon after the book was written, then what do you make of the thousand years of Revelation 20? Whether taken literally or figuratively, the thousand years is clearly referring to a long period of time, so it makes no sense to think that the entire thousand years happened soon after the book was written.

It's a reign with the Lord, and a thousand years with the Lord is as a day or a watch in the night Ps90 B. Rev 20 says they reigned(past tense) with Christ and they will reign(future tense) with Christ. To me that it is in progress at that time. "for Christ must reign until He has put all his enemies under His feet" as Paul said. They were seated with Him in heavenly places. They, the apostles were told "in the regeneration they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. The only other place the word regeneration is used, Titus 3: 4But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior" That certainly sounds like Pentecost to me. Plus there are no more 12 tribes of Israel. Where does scripture talk of a second exile after Jesus has come and died for them?

Also, your view requires that the book had to be written prior to 70 AD which is highly debatable. When a doctrine depends so much on a book being written before a certain time, you know that doctrine is on shaky ground.

I would also argue from scripture. Jude 1:3Beloved, although I made every effort to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt it necessary to write and urge you to contend earnestly for the faith entrusted once for all to the saints. Do we not contend for the faith with the sword of the word? On top of that, both Paul and Peter said they were eagerly waiting for the revelation of Jesus Christ.

To address "heaven and earth", Notice that Jesus connects heaven and earth to the law and that heaven and earth goes first. Matthew 5:17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Luke 16:16The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
When Moses (Deuteronomy 30 and 31) spoke of Israel's last days, he gathered Israel together and addressed them as heaven and earth. Josephus describes the temple as representing heaven and earth. The high priest went into the most holy place where heaven met earth in God's presence.

So, it was only when the temple was destroyed that the law could be terminated completely.

 

[robycop3]

Appears the preterists have given up trying to defend their myth. Maybe they've all realized it's false.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Appears the preterists have given up trying to defend their myth. Maybe they've all realized it's false.

Really? I see no responses to my last 2 posts on my computer.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Paul once said that the servant of God must not strive, but be gentle unto all men, in meekness instructing those who oppose themselves. If you regard Preterism as false, so be it. God has not chosen to reveal this to you, and that's okay. You are missing a real blessing, however, and that's too bad. Personally, I don't post with the intent of doing battle with others over this, even if you consider this your mission to do so. You do know, I suppose, that the more you post against Preterism, the more "press" you are giving it.

 

[robycop3]

Really? I see no responses to my last 2 posts on my computer.

I don't see any defense of preterism in them.

 

[robycop3]

Paul once said that the servant of God must not strive, but be gentle unto all men, in meekness instructing those who oppose themselves. If you regard Preterism as false, so be it. God has not chosen to reveal this to you, and that's okay. You are missing a real blessing, however, and that's too bad. Personally, I don't post with the intent of doing battle with others over this, even if you consider this your mission to do so. You do know, I suppose, that the more you post against Preterism, the more "press" you are giving it.

God chose to show me it's FALSE. How? By causing me to study both Scripture and history closely. Thus, I see lots of pret assertions, but no EVIDENCE sustaining them.

 

[3 Resurrections]

How? By causing me to study both Scripture and history closely.

Well, that is the same means I have employed for the past ten years, and I have arrived at the opposite conclusion. You and I have exchanged posts before where I have given you historical evidence on the GCF website, but you are predisposed to rejecting it. I'm sure you would do the same here as well, were I to submit such evidence here. I must use my available time efficiently. Life is short.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

God chose to show me it's FALSE. How? By causing me to study both Scripture and history closely. Thus, I see lots of pret assertions, but no EVIDENCE sustaining them.

Name a pret assertion I made. You on the other hand made the assertion that those who pierced Him would see Him from hades. Where does it say they will see Him from Hades?

 

[Ed Parenteau]

I don't see any defense of preterism in them.

Then may I conclude you agree with my last two posts? Or what?

 

[robycop3]

Well, that is the same means I have employed for the past ten years, and I have arrived at the opposite conclusion. You and I have exchanged posts before where I have given you historical evidence on the GCF website, but you are predisposed to rejecting it. I'm sure you would do the same here as well, were I to submit such evidence here. I must use my available time efficiently. Life is short.

You're stumped when it comes to Rev. 19:11-21, which, combined with history & reality, proves preterism false. If those events had already occurred, Jesus would still physically be here, ruling the world.

 

[robycop3]

Name a pret assertion I made. You on the other hand made the assertion that those who pierced Him would see Him from hades. Where does it say they will see Him from Hades?

In Post #484 in this thread, you assumed He's already come a 2nd time, when the TRUTH is, He has NOT yet returned.


Jesus hasn't yet returned, of course, and those who pierced Him are long-dead, but He said they'd see His return, so it's only logical to assume they'll see Him from hades.

 

[robycop3]

Then may I conclude you agree with my last two posts? Or what?

I'm not bothering to discuss the validity or non-validity of the law here, except to say we're no longer under the sacrificial or ceremonial portions of it, except for the "Lord's Supper" & the foot-washing ceremony. The Jews, of course, are under the passover & Sabbath portions of it.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You're stumped when it comes to Rev. 19:11-21, which, combined with history & reality, proves preterism false. If those events had already occurred, Jesus would still physically be here, ruling the world.

No, I am not "stumped" by Revelation 19:11-21. You may likely have forgotten, but you and I have discussed this same point before on the GCF website. On that website I agreed with you that, in the final resurrection and judgment, I believe Christ will remain on earth among the resurrected saints in a world completely purified of all human evil. We don't need to debate that.

But that return is a different return than the one Christ described for His disciples in John 14:2-3. In that context, Christ says "...I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." This is the very same occasion that Paul described in 1 Thessalonians 4, with the resurrected saints rising into the air to meet the Lord and to be forever with Him. In other words, the resurrected saints in both these texts were to LEAVE the planet along with Christ returning to heaven with all those resurrected saints.

If you are so certain that Christ must bodily be ruling the world on earth at His return (and I agree with that), then these other texts are describing another different return altogether.

 

[robycop3]

No, I am not "stumped" by Revelation 19:11-21. You may likely have forgotten, but you and I have discussed this same point before on the GCF website. On that website I agreed with you that, in the final resurrection and judgment, I believe Christ will remain on earth among the resurrected saints in a world completely purified of all human evil. We don't need to debate that.

But that return is a different return than the one Christ described for His disciples in John 14:2-3. In that context, Christ says "...I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." This is the very same occasion that Paul described in 1 Thessalonians 4, with the resurrected saints rising into the air to meet the Lord and to be forever with Him. In other words, the resurrected saints in both these texts were to LEAVE the planet along with Christ returning to heaven with all those resurrected saints.

If you are so certain that Christ must bodily be ruling the world on earth at His return (and I agree with that), then these other texts are describing another different return altogether.

The rapture is not a return. Jesus will call us to Him, not Him coming to us.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The rapture is not a return.

Yes, it was. And Christ left the proof of His Mount of Olives return to gather the resurrected saints; proof that is lying in the Kidron Valley unto this day, which archaeologists have dated to the AD 70 period.

 

[robycop3]

Yes, it was. And Christ left the proof of His Mount of Olives return to gather the resurrected saints; proof that is lying in the Kidron Valley unto this day, which archaeologists have dated to the AD 70 period.

No, the rapture hasn't happened yet. No historical records of thousands of Jews & their neighbors simply vanishing in fronta other people. And again, Jesus will call us to Him; He will not come to us.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

In Post #484 in this thread, you assumed He's already come a 2nd time, when the TRUTH is, He has NOT yet returned.


Jesus hasn't yet returned, of course, and those who pierced Him are long-dead, but He said they'd see His return, so it's only logical to assume they'll see Him from hades.

I don't have to assume any such thing, all I have to do is believe what He said.

Jesus said not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until all is fulfilled and that heaven and earth would pass away before any jot or tittle would pass away.
Did any jots or tittles of the sacrificial laws pass away yet? You agree they did, but you Just can't believe Jesus meant what He said. Why?

Matthew 24:34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
Again, He said it would happen in that generation, but you just can't get yourself to believe He meant what He said.
It's because you believe He's a little physical man who will sit on a little physical throne in a little physical box on the little planet, and this little physical Jesus will be the temple of billions and billions of Christians.
Here's His description of Himself:
Acts 7:
48However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:49‘Heaven is My throne
and the earth is My footstool.
What kind of house will you build for Me, says the Lord,
or where will My place of repose be?50Has not My hand made all these things?’