Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[robycop3]

If you don't like the KJV version of 1 Corinthians 2:10 I quoted above, then by all means, pick another one on the same text, since the generic meaning is the same. I just quote from the KJV because it was what I memorized from early childhood, but I am well aware of some of its weak points.

God has already revealed much of what Isaiah 64:4 said had not yet been heard or seen up until he wrote his prophecies. That is the blessing of the New Covenant. We are quite a bit better informed as to many of the mysteries that the Old Covenant had not yet revealed, thanks in large measure to Paul (and Christ) letting us know. One of those revealed mysteries is what a glorified, resurrected body form for a saint is like: how it appears to sight and touch, how it functions, and what its capabilities are.

It'll be great, is all I know.

Again, this is veeeeeery strange. Me, the Preterist, concentrates more on the future expectations of the saints in this life and the next than you do as a fervent anti-Preterist. It seems that I am more futuristic than you are in some ways.

Maybe that's because you're beginning to realize preterism is false.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Maybe that's because you're beginning to realize preterism is false.

Eschatology is a smorgasbord of different camps. I try to select only the truthful portions out of each camp, and that includes whatever portions of Full Preterism are true also. Even the devils were correct in recognizing that Jesus was the "Holy One of God". I would agree with them on that point also.

 

[robycop3]

Eschatology is a smorgasbord of different camps. I try to select only the truthful portions out of each camp, and that includes whatever portions of Full Preterism are true also. Even the devils were correct in recognizing that Jesus was the "Holy One of God". I would agree with them on that point also.

Nothing is true about preterism unluss you're counting the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple in it. But the coming of the beast, marka the beast, great trib, etc. haven't yet occurred.

 

[Timtofly]

I would like to see scripture that backs that up. But, that really wasn't the crux of my question.

You quoted the verses.

 

[Timtofly]

I said, and I fully believe that Jesus will return physically and visibly. But in FLESH?? Remember, Scripture says His eyes will be as a flame of fire. No flesh has eyes like that.
And ramember, full prets strangely believe He has already returned. I don't believe that; I believe such a notion is absurd.

Jesus had the same glorified body before and after the Cross. That is what Jesus showed to Peter, James, and John on the Mt. Of Transfiguration. The same glorified body still has the scars of the nails, and the spear. Jesus did not change bodies like a set of garments depending on what day it was.

Being in a glorified form is not about the body. It is about the Spirit. Jesus did not walk around with the full image of God appearing all the time. Even angels do not walk around as angels, but in human form. Even flaming fire is a physical property, not a spiritual attribute, unless you relegate God all the way into creation itself. Even then, the spiritual is just as equally a part of creation as the physical. If you think the flaming eyes are just a spiritual aspect, how could it be seen physically?

 

[Ed Parenteau]

It's VERY Scriptural. If you had a fresh spear wound in your side, could you stand someone sticking a hand in it? Yes, Jesus was still in the body He died in, but it'd been modified; otherwise He couldn't've survived the spear would, which was meant to kill Him, were He still alive when it was given.

We can agree it was the same body He died in.

He will return physically & visibly, but He won't be in the flesh.

If it's not flesh, what's it made of? Jesus said the world would not visibly see Him again.

John wrote that His eyes will be as flames of fire.

The word like means to resemble or look similar to.

Remember, He said every eye will see Him.

It's not of if every eye will see Him, but who the bible says they are and in what manner will they see Him. And since He already said the world would no longer see Him physically, it can't mean that.
Paul said the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven, and when that happened, Jesus said the end would come.

 

[robycop3]

We can agree it was the same body He died in.

But it was modified.

If it's not flesh, what's it made of? Jesus said the world would not visibly see Him again.

Maybe it's made of "Deoplasm"? I don't know.
He did NOT say any such thing. He WILL be seen when He returns, as He said Himself.

The word like means to resemble or look similar to.

Agreed.

It's not of if every eye will see Him, but who the bible says they are and in what manner will they see Him.

He said "every eye", NOT "every eye EXCEPT...".

And since He already said the world would no longer see Him physically, it can't mean that.

He didn't say any such thing.

Paul said the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven, and when that happened, Jesus said the end would come.

Every one that Paul knew about. He knew nothing about the other side of the world, far as we know. And obviously, "the end" hasn't yet come.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

You quoted the verses.

I put quotes around "a little while"

 

[Ed Parenteau]

He didn't say any such thing.

John 14:18“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” 22Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Every one that Paul knew about. He knew nothing about the other side of the world, far as we know. And obviously, "the end" hasn't yet come.

He said "every creature", NOT "every creature EXCEPT...". Besides that, Paul said he got his revelation directly from Jesus. It is your claim they're not talking about the same thing. Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

 

[eclipsenow]

It’s that generation - not 2000 years later
In Matthew 24 the disciples asked Jesus about THAT TEMPLE that the disciples could see with their own eyeballs. Jesus answered about THAT TEMPLE - otherwise he was lying. We must also remember that in the previous week Jesus had overturned the tables in the temple, judged the Pharisees, wept over Jerusalem, and said his own body was the true temple that would be destroyed and raised in 3 days.

Now he tells the disciples THAT temple was going to be destroyed within 40 years!

He said all 'these things' - the earthquakes and false messiahs and nation against nation - would happen in that generation. Luke is even more specific, and predicted Jerusalem would be surrounded by an army. It was, within 40 years the Romans came. After a long and awful siege, they burned down the temple and then sacrificed to the Eagle standard, worshipping Caesar. Then because there was still gold in the temple when it caught fire, the gold melted down between all the drains and temple bricks. So the soldiers demolished it in their hunt for gold, not leaving even one brick standing on another. It was all fulfilled literally and clearly in AD70 and nothing makes us look for a future Abomination that causes desolation. It all happened exactly as Jesus said, within the timeframe he literally said. That generation.

But what about the Son of Man on the clouds, the stars falling, and that obvious end of the world stuff? But if you look closer Jesus is quoting Daniel 7 where Jesus is not returning to the Earth at all! He's returning to HEAVEN after triumphing over the cross. Jesus is the Son of Man who will "ride the clouds" back into the throne room of heaven, to sit next to the Ancient of Days. What about the angels gathering the elect, the stars falling, and all that? Surely ALL THAT is the end of the world and judgement day? Everything is answered in this excellent talk by Sydney Anglican minister Tom Barrett. I’ve keyframed it to the bible readings, and then Tom. Just click here:

 

[robycop3]

John 14:18“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” 22Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

He said "every creature", NOT "every creature EXCEPT...". Besides that, Paul said he got his revelation directly from Jesus. It is your claim they're not talking about the same thing. Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

Acts 1:11who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Matt. 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev. 1:7Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

PLENTY of proof He will be seen again on earth!

 

[robycop3]

It’s that generation - not 2000 years later
In Matthew 24 the disciples asked Jesus about THAT TEMPLE that the disciples could see with their own eyeballs. Jesus answered about THAT TEMPLE - otherwise he was lying. We must also remember that in the previous week Jesus had overturned the tables in the temple, judged the Pharisees, wept over Jerusalem, and said his own body was the true temple that would be destroyed and raised in 3 days.

Now he tells the disciples THAT temple was going to be destroyed within 40 years!

He said all 'these things' - the earthquakes and false messiahs and nation against nation - would happen in that generation. Luke is even more specific, and predicted Jerusalem would be surrounded by an army. It was, within 40 years the Romans came. After a long and awful siege, they burned down the temple and then sacrificed to the Eagle standard, worshipping Caesar. Then because there was still gold in the temple when it caught fire, the gold melted down between all the drains and temple bricks. So the soldiers demolished it in their hunt for gold, not leaving even one brick standing on another. It was all fulfilled literally and clearly in AD70 and nothing makes us look for a future Abomination that causes desolation. It all happened exactly as Jesus said, within the timeframe he literally said. That generation.

But what about the Son of Man on the clouds, the stars falling, and that obvious end of the world stuff? But if you look closer Jesus is quoting Daniel 7 where Jesus is not returning to the Earth at all! He's returning to HEAVEN after triumphing over the cross. Jesus is the Son of Man who will "ride the clouds" back into the throne room of heaven, to sit next to the Ancient of Days. What about the angels gathering the elect, the stars falling, and all that? Surely ALL THAT is the end of the world and judgement day? Everything is answered in this excellent talk by Sydney Anglican minister Tom Barrett. I’ve keyframed it to the bible readings, and then Tom. Just click here:

NUPE!
The only things that have already occurred are the destruction of J & the temple.
NO beast.
NO marka the beast.
NO AOD.
NO return of Jesus.

But all WILL occur, as Scripture says. You CANNOT explain away the Scriptures I quoted in my previous post above.

 

[eclipsenow]

Acts 1:11who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Matt. 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev. 1:7Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

PLENTY of proof He will be seen again on earth!

It's tricky because the "cloud rider" is an Old Testament claim to who's the boss.
Worshippers of Baal claimed HE was the "cloud rider". It seems to be congruent to who rules the heavens.

In Ugaritic and Hebrew, Baal’s epithet as the storm god was He Who Rides on the Clouds. In Phoenician he was called Baal Shamen, Lord of the Heavens.
Baal | Definition, Myths, Worship, & Facts​

Then in fulfilment of this claim, Jesus actually ascends through the clouds in the ascension.
Our God really is the cloud-rider - no quote marks!

But which direction is Jesus going in Matt 24?
Why is it conflated with "this generation" seeing all those things - at least up until he starts mentioning THAT DAY?

He references himself as the Son of Man - a deity claim from Daniel 7.
So this is Christological as well. Daniel 7:

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence."​

That's the verse Jesus is quoting!

The fact that when Jesus returns it sounds similar should not surprise us - as that is a heaven coming to earth image. But this is what is in mind. Jesus is reigning from heaven when you see the temple destroyed!

Also, viewing these verses as suddenly being 2000 years in the future from the disciples perspective does incredible violence to the passage. There they are, the country boys visiting the big city, going on about what big stones the temple is built from. Surely this lasts forever?

Not so much! It's all coming down, within that generation. AND IT DID!

But futurists want to randomly insert 2000 years, and have Jesus telling them a fib?

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Acts 1:11who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Let's start at verse 9
Acts 1:9After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.
So then, He left with the clouds of heaven out of their sight and He came back with the clouds of heaven out of their sight. That fits perfectly with Jesus saying the "world will see me no more", and Luke 17:20Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 21nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”
Observed. STRONGS NT 3907: παρατήρησις
παρατήρησις, παρατηρήσεως, ἡ (παρατηρέω), observation ((Polybius 16, 22, 8), Diodorus, Josephus, Antoninus, Plutarch, others): μετά παρατηρήσεως, in such a manner that it can be watched with the eyes, i. e. in a visible manner, Luke 17:20.

 

[robycop3]

It's tricky because the "cloud rider" is an Old Testament claim to who's the boss.
Worshippers of Baal claimed HE was the "cloud rider". It seems to be congruent to who rules the heavens.

In Ugaritic and Hebrew, Baal’s epithet as the storm god was He Who Rides on the Clouds. In Phoenician he was called Baal Shamen, Lord of the Heavens.
Baal | Definition, Myths, Worship, & Facts​

Then in fulfilment of this claim, Jesus actually ascends through the clouds in the ascension.
Our God really is the cloud-rider - no quote marks!

But which direction is Jesus going in Matt 24?
Why is it conflated with "this generation" seeing all those things - at least up until he starts mentioning THAT DAY?

He references himself as the Son of Man - a deity claim from Daniel 7.
So this is Christological as well. Daniel 7:

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence."​

That's the verse Jesus is quoting!

The fact that when Jesus returns it sounds similar should not surprise us - as that is a heaven coming to earth image. But this is what is in mind. Jesus is reigning from heaven when you see the temple destroyed!

Also, viewing these verses as suddenly being 2000 years in the future from the disciples perspective does incredible violence to the passage. There they are, the country boys visiting the big city, going on about what big stones the temple is built from. Surely this lasts forever?

Not so much! It's all coming down, within that generation. AND IT DID!

But futurists want to randomly insert 2000 years, and have Jesus telling them a fib?

Obviously, Jesus hasn't yet returned, or He'd be here now. Simple fact.

 

[robycop3]

Let's start at verse 9
Acts 1:9After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.
So then, He left with the clouds of heaven out of their sight and He came back with the clouds of heaven out of their sight. That fits perfectly with Jesus saying the "world will see me no more", and Luke 17:20Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 21nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”
Observed. STRONGS NT 3907: παρατήρησις
παρατήρησις, παρατηρήσεως, ἡ (παρατηρέω), observation ((Polybius 16, 22, 8), Diodorus, Josephus, Antoninus, Plutarch, others): μετά παρατηρήσεως, in such a manner that it can be watched with the eyes, i. e. in a visible manner, Luke 17:20.

He was visible until He entered into a cloud. And don't forget Rev. 1:7.

 

[endofdayz]

Here's another thing. The Bible tells us at the end times, Israel and Judah will come together and form a new covenent with God. If you're a Preterist, when did this happen?

Jeremiah 50:3 For out of the north there cometh up a nation against her, which shall make her land desolate, and none shall dwell therein: they shall remove, they shall depart, both man and beast.

4 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the Lord their God.

5 They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the Lord in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.

Right now, Israel is still under the old covenent. Paul tells us why. He said Israel is blinded in part for the sake of the Gentiles.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

If you're a Preterist, when exactly did the fulness of the Gentiles occur?

They were scattered and separated around 930 B.C., if you're a Preterist, when did they reunite and form a new covenent with God?

 

[Ed Parenteau]

He was visible until He entered into a cloud. And don't forget Rev. 1:7.

Again, Christ said the world will see Him no more physically. John 14: 19Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me..... 22Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?”

When He ascended into heaven He was physically invisible to the world. Acts 10:40Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, 41not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

So therefore, He left physically invisible to the world, and He will return invisible to the world. What they would see, is His wrath poured out, Just like they saw it in the old covenant.

1 Thessalonians 2:15who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well. They are displeasing to God and hostile to all men, 16hindering us from telling the Gentiles how they may be saved. As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them.
It's a little late now, seeing how they're all dead.

 

[robycop3]

Again, Christ said the world will see Him no more physically. John 14: 19Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me..... 22Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?”

When He ascended into heaven He was physically invisible to the world. Acts 10:40Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, 41not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

So therefore, He left physically invisible to the world, and He will return invisible to the world. What they would see, is His wrath poured out, Just like they saw it in the old covenant.

1 Thessalonians 2:15who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well. They are displeasing to God and hostile to all men, 16hindering us from telling the Gentiles how they may be saved. As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them.
It's a little late now, seeing how they're all dead.

I posted the verses of Scripture that **PROVE** Jesus will be seen by the world when He returns. So, with all due respect, I don't believe one word of your argument.

 

[Skye1300]

I just had to google preterist, never heard of this belief before. I thought all Christians agreed that we are still waiting on the end times. Interesting.