Presuppositions

[3sigma]

After all of that experience, I can state with great confidence that I really don't know whether God exists or not(*).

That’s intriguing. Several times in this thread, you’ve described yourself as a “believer” so one wonders what you “believe”. Is it that you believe your God is real, but you aren’t absolutely certain about it? Perhaps you would be kind enough to answer the questions the Pew Forum survey asked on this?

Do you believe in God or a universal spirit?
How certain are you about this belief?
Are you absolutely certain, fairly certain, not too certain or not at all certain?

Perhaps you fall into the mere 2% of U.S. Christians who are either not too certain or not at all certain their God is real. The vast majority of U.S. Christians are either absolutely certain (80%) or fairly certain (15%) their God is real. What amount of certainty would you say is justified when there is zero sound, objective evidence to support that belief?

On the other hand, you know nothing about me, my beliefs or experiences, but you think you know what I really believe better than I do.

No, I said I suspect you believe your God is real. I didn’t state it as a fact, unlike you in your very next paragraph where you state outright that you know how I think...

“You have a mental scheme for understanding the world, and you simply don't care whether real people fit it or not.”

That looks like yet another case of projection from a Christian.

 

[Tzaousios]

That looks like yet another case of projection from a Christian.

No, actually, it looks like 3sigma getting his fill of the denigration game.

 

[3sigma]

If you can’t be bothered to answer my questions, Tzaousios, then please don’t bother responding to my posts at all.

 

[Tzaousios]

If you can’t be bothered to answer my questions, Tzaousios, then please don’t bother responding to my posts at all.

I have answered them before. Apparently you did not like my answers since they did not repudiate Christianity or cave in to your denigration game. Would not want to put a damper on the fun now would we!

 

[3sigma]

I have answered them before.

No, you post responses, but you constantly evade my questions. You just did it again here even though I asked you politely not to respond unless you are answering my questions.

Your first response made a sniping comment on my post, but you evaded every one of the questions it contained. Please answer those questions. If you are just going to evade those questions again then please don’t respond.

 

[sfs]

That’s intriguing. Several times in this thread, you’ve described yourself as a “believer” so one wonders what you “believe”.

To me, being a believer means I am committed to a living a certain way and adopting a certain stance toward my own life and toward the world at large.

Is it that you believe your God is real, but you aren’t absolutely certain about it? Perhaps you would be kind enough to answer the questions the Pew Forum survey asked on this?

Do you believe in God or a universal spirit?
How certain are you about this belief?
Are you absolutely certain, fairly certain, not too certain or not at all certain?

I generally find survey questions (beyond the most trivial ones) to be badly formulated and to miss most of the important distinctions I would make. These aren't exceptional in that regard. I believe that the universe has deep structure and order, and that the nature of that order is unlikely to be accessible to human intellect. I think it is possible but not certain that behind (to use on metaphor) is something that is at least vaguely analogous to what we think of as personality or intelligence. For this idea I have subjective but not objective evidence. I know of no way to estimate the probability that this idea has any truth to it.

Perhaps you fall into the mere 2% of U.S. Christians who are either not too certain or not at all certain their God is real.

I think that the deepest aspects of reality are real, and I think it overwhelmingly unlikely that my own guesses and intimations of what that reality might be like are completely accurate. How inaccurate they are, or what metric one should use for making such a comparison, I have no idea.

You can map this answer onto the (really quite stupid) Pew choices however you like.

What amount of certainty would you say is justified when there is zero sound, objective evidence to support that belief?

I don't know. How much certainty is justified for the belief that we're not brains in vats? Undecidable questions are undecidable.

No, I said I suspect you believe your God is real. I didn’t state it as a fact, unlike you in your very next paragraph where you state outright that you know how I think...

True, you stated it as a suspicion. I said you "thought" you knew better than I did what I believed. If you want to argue that there is much semantic difference between thinking someone believes something and suspecting someone believes it, I won't bother to rebut you.

“You have a mental scheme for understanding the world, and you simply don't care whether real people fit it or not.”

Yes. Unlike your suspicion, my conclusion was (and is) based on sound, objective evidence: your own statements in this thread, and you own reaction to evidence that does not support your claims. I will happily revise my conclusion when presented with appropriate evidence. (That's what scientists do, after all.)

 

[sfs]

I have to say that, even when I disagree with you, it's always a pleasure reading your posts. They're always insightful, composed, and clear.

Thank you very much.

(If it's any help, I am quite capable of disagreeing with some of my own posts.)

 

[3sigma]

I believe that the universe has deep structure and order, and that the nature of that order is unlikely to be accessible to human intellect. I think it is possible but not certain that behind (to use on metaphor) is something that is at least vaguely analogous to what we think of as personality or intelligence. For this idea I have subjective but not objective evidence. I know of no way to estimate the probability that this idea has any truth to it.

So you think it is possible your God is some vague personality or intelligence responsible for a probably unknowable order in the universe. For this idea you have subjective evidence, which is indistinguishable from imagination. I’m not surprised that you can’t estimate the probability that your idea is true.

I think that the deepest aspects of reality are real, and I think it overwhelmingly unlikely that my own guesses and intimations of what that reality might be like are completely accurate. How inaccurate they are, or what metric one should use for making such a comparison, I have no idea.

You can map this answer onto the (really quite stupid) Pew choices however you like.

The Pew Forum choices were: absolutely certain, fairly certain, not too certain and not at all certain. From what you’ve said, it appears you are not at all certain about your belief in your God, which puts you into less than 2% of U.S. Christians, most of whom are absolutely certain about their belief. You aren’t really representative of mainstream Christianity in the U.S. at all, are you? Could you please explain why you think the Pew Forum choices were “really quite stupid” and tell us what choices you would have used as possible answers to the question, “How certain are you about your belief in God or a universal spirit?”

I don't know. How much certainty is justified for the belief that we're not brains in vats?

Well, zero of course, given that there is zero sound, objective evidence that we are brains in vats. I asked you what level of certainty is justified when there is zero sound, objective evidence supporting a belief and you said, “I don’t know”. I guess your inability to determine that there should be zero certainty is why you believe some of the things you do.

True, you stated it as a suspicion. I said you "thought" you knew better than I did what I believed. If you want to argue that there is much semantic difference between thinking someone believes something and suspecting someone believes it, I won't bother to rebut you.

What sophistry. I said I suspect you believe your God is real. That means I think it is possible based on the objective evidence that you are using a Christian faith icon and you stated several times in this thread that you are a believer. It means I’m not certain of it, which is why I asked you more than once in that same post to clarify whether you believe your God is real or not.

When you say to me, “you think you know what I really believe better than I do”, you are saying, “even though you may be certain you are right, you happen to be wrong”. You are disparaging me as being both arrogant and ignorant. From what you’ve said above, it seems you think it is possible your God is some vague intelligence; you have some worthless subjective evidence, but you aren’t certain of your idea. If you think there is no semantic difference between what I said and what you said then you should have no complaint if I said to you, “you think you know your God is real”.

Unlike your suspicion, my conclusion was (and is) based on sound, objective evidence: your own statements in this thread, and you own reaction to evidence that does not support your claims. I will happily revise my conclusion when presented with appropriate evidence. (That's what scientists do, after all.)

You already had that evidence before you said to me, “you simply don't care whether real people fit it or not.” I asked you more than once in that same post whether you believed your God was real or not. In posts before that, I asked you questions about what and why people believe, some of which you evaded. I subsequently asked you to answer the Pew Forum questions about your belief. If you take the time to read through my posts in other forums on this site you will find that I’ve been asking people questions about their beliefs for the last two years. It should be obvious that I am curious about what different people believe and why they believe it. However, after two years of questioning people here and far longer questioning people elsewhere, it has become apparent that most people believe religious nonsense due to a combination of insecurity and credulity.