Presuppositions

[Naraoia]

This thread makes me think I'm in Wonderland.

Hmm, Wonderland. Now I want to listen to that song. *wistful*

 

[Frattracide]

The finite cannot express the infinite. (analogy principle)

Given the observable operation of the universe, not theorectical but demonstrable, I am left to believe that entropy increases, that the universe is not an open or necessary system. This begs a efficient cause.

I have no reason to believe that available complexity, information or energy spontaneously increases. It has never been observed.
I am left to believe that the whole universe is "flowing" in the opposite direction.
I am left to believe that it is "dying", "winding down".

Granted, my understanding is contingent to what I know, and I know only in part. I am not objective, I am contingent.

I cannot point to any thing as proof of anything.
Nothing has ever really ever been proven to me.
it's just that all the other ideas that I've considered have been des-proven,
and what remains is my faith; and then that's tested ....
In that sense, I've an open mind.

That's a tad ambiguous. What exactly has been disproved? You seem to reference Science generally and, in this case, entropy specifically as proof against something, but don't really define what those concepts are proof against.

 

[bricklayer]

All reasoning is presuppositional.
The presuppositions that underpin this world's systems include objectivity and independent trials. There is no one objective and there are no independent trials (chance).

Evolution, for example, is based of a belief in the spontaneous increase in available information, complexity and energy. Although it has never been observed, dispite the commitment of the majority of the theoretical post grad work to finding one example. All the observable evidence confirms a universe going from a maximum of available information, complexity and energy to a universe where all information, complexity and energy are becoming unavailable.

As potentiality is actualized available potentiality decreases.
This is not an open or necessary system.
This begs an efficient cause.

The "way of this world" presupposes material necessity.
I believe that ALL of the evidence points to material contingency.
It is quite bizarre, to me, to live among people who cannot see the whole of the flow reality. Quite odd indeed. There but for the grace of God go I.

 

[Naraoia]

Evolution, for example, is based of a belief in the spontaneous increase in available information, complexity and energy. Although it has never been observed, dispite the commitment of the majority of the theoretical post grad work to finding one example.

What has never been observed?

All the observable evidence confirms a universe going from a maximum of available information, complexity and energy to a universe where all information, complexity and energy are becoming unavailable.

"The universe" is not one big homogeneous mass of increasing entropy, just like rivers are not uniform downhill flows.

Also, please define complexity and information.

As potentiality is actualized available potentiality decreases.

This sentence makes no sense.

This is not an open or necessary system.

What is "this"?

It is quite bizarre, to me, to live among people who cannot see the whole of the flow reality. Quite odd indeed.

Is the notion that human perception and intelligence are limited new to you? I thought that if anyone, a believer in an omniscient God would be aware of that.

 

[Frattracide]

All reasoning is presuppositional.


Evolution, for example, is based of a belief in the spontaneous increase in available information, complexity and energy. Although it has never been observed, dispite the commitment of the majority of the theoretical post grad work to finding one example. All the observable evidence confirms a universe going from a maximum of available information, complexity and energy to a universe where all information, complexity and energy are becoming unavailable.

As potentiality is actualized available potentiality decreases.
This is not an open or necessary system.
This begs an efficient cause.

Firstly: what do you mean when you write "information?" In the context of evolution, what is "information?"

Secondly: The biological theory of evolution is based on observation. Namely that alleles vary over generations and that some of those variations confer an advantage on an organism that exhibits them. You can observe this happening and biologists have documented countless instances of this occurrence.

Thirdly: Your conclusion is a false dichotomy. Well, you really haven't reached that point because you have accrued tremendous error in your premises and some of your premises remain unstated but, if you were to get to the conclusion of your introspective argument, which discounts a natural explanation of the world, you would be faced with the problem that you have not provided an answer for your position. Disproof of one idea does not automatically prove another.

 

[bricklayer]

What has never been observed is a spontaneous increase in available information, complexity or energy.

Information, in biological terms, is held in genetic code.

We observe extinction, but we have never observed a spontaneous increase in available information, complexity or energy.

"Science", presupposes material necessity (that matter exists necessarily).
This presupposition carries with it assupmtions that are contrary to all observed material economies (the way things operate).

Moden speiciation is nothing more than dead end narrowings of genetic lines.

The assupmtions are not only unfounded but they fly in the face of what is observed. The belief in spontaneous decrease in entropy is so wildly absurd, to me, that it is obviously, as the bible says, a curse.

It is easy for us now to dismiss the vast majority of those who dedicated their lives to the "science" of their time. It is obvious now that they wereway,way off. This generation is NO different and no closer to the truth. We are wrong from the anthropocentric start and 180% off the full way through. Spontaneous increase, please, give me a break.

 

[sfs]

All reasoning is presuppositional.

Probably true.

The presuppositions that underpin this world's systems

"This world's systems"? This world has a vast range of systems (including your own, of course -- were you under the impression that you weren't part of this world?), with a correspondingly large range of presuppositions.

include objectivity and independent trials. There is no one objective and there are no independent trials (chance).

I don't know what systems you're talking about here (and I suspect you don't either), but these are not necessary presuppositions for doing science.

Evolution, for example, is based of a belief in the spontaneous increase in available information, complexity and energy. Although it has never been observed, dispite the commitment of the majority of the theoretical post grad work to finding one example. All the observable evidence confirms a universe going from a maximum of available information, complexity and energy to a universe where all information, complexity and energy are becoming unavailable.

Okay, now you've left the realm of vague philosophical claims, and made scientific ones instead. Unfortunately, your claims are flat-out wrong. Evolution is not based on any beliefs (beside some basic ones about the intelligibility of the universe), but on observations. It requires no belief in a spontaneous increase in available information, because "available information" in this context is a meaningless string of syllables concocted by creationists, with no operational or theoretical definition. It does conclude (not assume) that complexity has increased, but spontaneous increases in complexity are so easily observed that they're trivial, and so your claim that they're never observed is obviously wrong. (Ever seen a snowflake?)

Finally, evolution does not require an increase in available energy -- it just requires the existence of available energy, which of course is also trivially true. (Look up at the sky: the big glowing thing up there is a source of a vast supply of available energy.) Yes, the available energy in the universe is decreasing, and eventually (based on what we currently know) it will run out. Evolution will then stop, as will life. That's a long way off, however, and in the meantime evolution continues to operate.

 

[sfs]

What has never been observed is a spontaneous increase in available information, complexity or energy.

Information, in biological terms, is held in genetic code.

And genetic information is routinely observed to increase (by any meaningful definition of information that I can think of).

"Science", presupposes material necessity (that matter exists necessarily).

It presupposes no such thing. Stop repeating these assertions and start supporting them.

Moden speiciation is nothing more than dead end narrowings of genetic lines.

Exactly how thoroughly have you studied the literature on speciation? Please be specific.

The assupmtions are not only unfounded but they fly in the face of what is observed. The belief in spontaneous decrease in entropy is so wildly absurd, to me, that it is obviously, as the bible says, a curse.

You really should try learning even a little science before you criticize it. Do you really think scientists are so stupid that they would accept a theory that violated the most basic laws of physics? Your problem is that you don't understand what those laws say. For example, you say that belief in a spontaneous decrease in entropy is absurd. Any physicist or chemist could tell you that entropy spontaneously decreases all the time -- every time water freezes, for example. What you won't see is the entropy of the entire universe(*) decreasing spontaneously. But evolution doesn't require the universe's entropy to decrease. So what exactly do you think you're arguing here?

(*) There are difficulties involving General Relativity here, but let's ignore them.

It is easy for us now to dismiss the vast majority of those who dedicated their lives to the "science" of their time. It is obvious now that they wereway,way off. This generation is NO different and no closer to the truth. We are wrong from the anthropocentric start and 180% off the full way through. Spontaneous increase, please, give me a break.

Well, it's easy to dismiss them if you don't actually know anything about the science involved.

 

[bricklayer]

How can you possibly state that evolution is not based on the spontaneous increase? It most assuredly is.

I am greatful to be in the minority, on this.
I cannot hold any hard feelings for those who believe what I was taught and would otherwise believe.

This is most certainly not my "world", my world view.
It is amazing, to me, what a curse looks like.
It is amazing, to me, how such things can remain hidden in plain sight.
It is amazing, to me, that I would be redeemed from such beliefs.

We start with completely different presuppositions.
I think it's facinating.

 

[sandwiches]

It's unbelievable but you might actually be worse at actually making sense that SkyWriting. Is incoherence a requirement for believing what you do?

 

[sfs]

How can you possibly state that evolution is not based on the spontaneous increase? It most assuredly is.

A spontaneous increase in what, and where? By how much? Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Thermodynamics is a highly mathematical subject. What is the spontaneous increase in entropy required by evolution, and what are the units? Please include the necessary math.

I am greatful to be in the minority, on this.
I cannot hold any hard feelings for those who believe what I was taught and would otherwise believe.

I am equally unwilling to hold hard feelings for those who attack what they do not understand, and who make a mockery of Christianity in the process.

This is most certainly not my "world", my world view.
It is amazing, to me, what a curse looks like.
It is amazing, to me, how such things can remain hidden in plain sight.
It is amazing, to me, that I would be redeemed from such beliefs.

We start with completely different presuppositions.
I think it's facinating.

Sigh. No, the problem is not different presuppositions. (As I've repeatedly pointed out to you, you don't even know what the presuppositions of science are.) The problem is that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You don't know what "available information" is, you don't know what entropy is or how to calculate it, you don't know how much energy evolution needs, or how that compares to the amount of energy that's actually available on the surface of the earth.

You don't have presuppositions; you have some slogans you picked up somewhere.

 

[Maxwell511]

A spontaneous increase in what, and where? By how much? Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Thermodynamics is a highly mathematical subject. What is the spontaneous increase in entropy required by evolution, and what are the units? Please include the necessary math.

Evolution is based on the "spontaneous" increase in complexity and information obviously. For example human beings are complex and contain genetic information so we can define units of complexity and information in terms of human beings. (Creation) Science has laws against the increase in complexity and information therefore it is impossible for an increase in the amount of units (human beings) to occur naturally. Increases in populations occur due to God moulding children within the womb cos nature can't do that according to (creation) science.

 

[Frattracide]

How can you possibly state that evolution is not based on the spontaneous increase? It most assuredly is.

How is it? I pretty much defined evolution for you earlier. Which part of the theory of evolution requires "The spontaneous increase?" What does that even mean?

 

[3sigma]

This is most certainly not my "world", my world view.
It is amazing, to me, what a curse looks like.
It is amazing, to me, how such things can remain hidden in plain sight.
It is amazing, to me, that I would be redeemed from such beliefs.

What I find amazing is the credulity of religious believers. They believe their God is real, sometimes with absolute certainty, without a single shred of sound, objective evidence to support that belief. Talk about presuppositions...

 

[Meshach]

What I find amazing is the credulity of religious believers. They believe their God is real, sometimes with absolute certainty, without a single shred of sound, objective evidence to support that belief. Talk about presuppositions...

What is more absurd is those who believe there is no God. And do you really think Christians have no evidence of God? If I had not the peace He promised in His Word, nor the joy unspeakable, nor the abundant life He offers for those who follow Him. If I had not one answered prayer. If I could read the Bible in its entirety and come to the conclusion it was but a myth just made up and still contain the power to change ANYBODY'S life for the better. If I did not believe the personal testimonies (thousands) that I have heard of God working in others lives. The miracles also that I have heard of from most reliable sources and seen for myself. If I had never sensed to a tangible degree the precence of my Creator on numerous occasions. If I had not been encouraged, strengthend, challenged and delighted by now countless different messages Sunday after Sunday. Messages prompting me and drawing me to be humble, kind, loving, forgiving, caring, compassionate and many other wonderful characteristics, changing me from the inside out. If I had not become a new Creation. Then , yes, I would be where you are. Wondering, doubting, lost in the darkness. I was there at one time , but thanks be to God. My life is now worth the living, because He lives. It is impossible for me to even consider that life could be any better without Him. Impossible. For the Truth shall set you free.

Psalm 40:2
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

 

[Maxwell511]

If I could read the Bible in its entirety and come to the conclusion it was but a myth just made up and still contain the power to change ANYBODY'S life for the better.

I was in a psychiatric hospital once and this guy told me that televisions broadcast the secrets of life and happiness to him. I have been watching alot of tv but I have not found what he was talking about. Should I abandon the tv for the Bible? I am not sure, the guy seemed really sincere about the television.

 

[3sigma]

And do you really think Christians have no evidence of God?

You certainly have no sound, objective evidence that your God is real.

You appear typical of religious believers whose beliefs are driven by their emotions, particularly fear and anxiety. Their beliefs are reached through logical fallacies, misapprehensions, personal experiences, feelings, anecdotes, weak evidence or none at all and yet those beliefs are held with intractable, absolute certainty. The rest of your post confirms that.

 

[Meshach]

You certainly have no sound, objective evidence that your God is real.

One word, "FAITH", you choice to figure it out.

 

[SithDoughnut]

One word, "FAITH", you choice to figure it out.

Faith =/= Evidence. Faith can be the result of a subjective interpretation of events or statements which are then taken to be evidence, but it is not evidence in itself.

People really need to learn the difference.

 

[Meshach]

Faith =/= Evidence. Faith can be the result of a subjective interpretation of events or statements which are then taken to be evidence, but it is not evidence in itself.

People really need to learn the difference.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.