predicting Christ's coming

[Keachian]

Yes, and so what about all the people who live and die during the millennium? The time for salvation by the blood of the Lamb has passed, right? Isn't that why there are sacrifices again during the millennium?

There is no evidence for any of that in the passage I was referencing, if you would stop collapsing contexts that would helpful.

 

[eclipsenow]

Regarding "It really could happen in ... 50,000 years", Jesus may not wait that long to return because of the reasons given in the "Mt. 24:34" part of post 67.

Incorrect. Matthew 24 is not about the future. See post 116.

Regarding "We don't know", we could come to know at some point in the future because of the reasons given in the "Mt. 24:36" part of post 67.

Incorrect. We don't know. See post 111.

It can, if the seven Spirits are the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of wisdom, the Spirit of understanding, the Spirit of counsel, the Spirit of might, the Spirit of knowledge, and the Spirit of the fear of the Lord.

Incorrect. See post 116. The Holy Spirit might have many names but that doesn't mean there are many Holy Spirits. By that rationale, there are many names for God. Are there many gods?

The 42 months (Rev. 13:5, 11:2b) of the Antichrist's future, Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Rev. 13:4-18, 12:9) will be literal. That's why other verses refer to that same future time period as lasting 3.5 years (Rev. 12:14, Dan. 7:25, 12:7), or 1,260 days (Rev. 12:6, 11:3), and why the many details of Rev. 13 were never fulfilled during a past time period.

Incorrect, see post 105 where I explain the use of symbols in Revelation.

 

[Bible2]

ViaCrucis said in post 161:

"You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." - Luke 12:40

That doesn't forbid that some people in the church could, at some point in the future, come to know beforehand the date of Jesus' second coming, for the reasons given in post 67.

ViaCrucis said in post 161:

He could return ten minutes from now, or He could return ten thousand years from now.

Regarding "He could return ten minutes from now", that isn't possible, for the reasons given in the "isn't possible" part of post 104.

ViaCrucis said in post 161:

He could return ten minutes from now, or He could return ten thousand years from now.

Regarding "He could return ten thousand years from now", he may not wait that long, for the reasons give in the "Mt. 24:34" part of post 67.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 163:

Matthew 24 is not about the future. See post 116.

Regarding "Matthew 24 is not about the future", it is, for the reasons give in post 112.

Regarding "See post 116", that post was addressed in the second half of post 125.

eclipsenow said in post 163:

We don't know. See post 111.

As was pointed out in the last part of post 113, the idea of not knowing was addressed in the "Mt. 24:36" part of post 67.

eclipsenow said in post 163:

Incorrect. See post 116.

Post 116 didn't prove that the possibility regarding the seven Spirits of God must be incorrect. And post 116 was addressed in the "seven Spirits" part of post 125.

eclipsenow said in post 163:

The Holy Spirit might have many names but that doesn't mean there are many Holy Spirits. By that rationale, there are many names for God. Are there many gods?

As was pointed out in the "7 Spirits" part of post 112, just as the one God can at the same time be 3 Persons (Mt. 28:19), so the one Holy Spirit of God can at the same time be 7 Spirits of God (Isa. 11:2, Rev. 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, 5:6).

eclipsenow said in post 163:

Incorrect, see post 105 where I explain the use of symbols in Revelation.

Nothing in post 105 proved that the 42 months (Rev. 13:5, 11:2b) of the Antichrist's future, Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Rev. 13:4-18, 12:9) won't be literal. Indeed, the last part of post 125 gave the reasons why the 42 months will be literal.

Also, Revelation in general is almost entirely literal, for the reasons given in the last part of post 73.

 

[Bible2]

Bethwhite said in post 155:

No earthly denomination will save you.

Regarding denominations, believers shouldn't be identified or identify themselves after any man-made denomination (1 Cor. 1:12-13, 1 Cor. 3:4), but should simply be "Christians" (Acts 11:26b, 1 Pet. 4:16).

Bethwhite said in post 155:

No traditions of men will save you.

Regarding traditions, there are incorrect traditions from fallible men (Col. 2:8, 1 Pet. 1:18) which contradict God's Word (Mk. 7:13), & there are correct traditions from God's Word (2 Thes. 2:15, 3:6, 2 Tim. 3:16, Jn. 17:17, 8:31b). There are also man-made traditions which, even though they don't contradict God's Word, they go beyond it (cf. 1 Cor. 4:6b), & so they aren't binding on Christians, who can choose for themselves whether they will follow such traditions or not (cf. Rom. 14:5-6).

 

[Bible2]

Ronald said in post 156:

The 2nd Temple was accepted with the Old Covenant and then God destroyed it in 70 A.D.; but prior to that, it became obsolete once Jesus died on the cross.

Regarding God destroying the Old Covenant in 70 AD, the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment Jesus died on the Cross (Mt. 27:50-51a) and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Eph. 2:15-16, Col. 2:14-17, Rom. 7:6, 2 Cor. 3:6-18, Heb. 7:19), which was the same moment that he brought the New Covenant into effect (Mt. 26:28, Heb. 9:15-17, 10:19-20, Mt. 27:51a). So from God's point of view, there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Heb. 10:9b, 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

Ronald said in post 156:

Therefore, a third temple w/ sacrifices would actually be an insult to Christ, an abomination to Him when He was/is the once and for all sacrifice.

Regarding "a third temple w/ sacrifices would actually be an insult to Christ", they in themselves won't necessarily be an insult, for the reasons given in the second paragraph of post 124.

Ronald said in post 156:

Many temples, mosques, churches are built, but the fact remains, the temple is spiritually composed of the body of Christ.

The body of Christ can coexist with other temples of God, as was shown in the first paragraph of post 124.

 

[Ronald]

Is there a moment in time when the "door is shut" - when no one enters by the blood of Jesus anymore?

trumpet #7
Of course that would be according to this age that we are in. During the Millennial Kingdom, there will be new births, whom will need to be born again. They will be tested at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, when Satan is once again released.

 

[eclipsenow]

Regarding "Matthew 24 is not about the future", it is, for the reasons give in post 112.

Not it's not. See post 116.

As was pointed out in the last part of post 113, the idea of not knowing was addressed in the "Mt. 24:36" part of post 67.

We don't know. See post 111.

Post 116 didn't prove that the possibility regarding the seven Spirits of God must be incorrect. And post 116 was addressed in the "seven Spirits" part of post 125.

Incorrect. See post 116 again.

As was pointed out in the "7 Spirits" part of post 112, just as the one God can at the same time be 3 Persons (Mt. 28:19), so the one Holy Spirit of God can at the same time be 7 Spirits of God (Isa. 11:2, Rev. 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, 5:6).

Incorrect. See post 116 again.

Nothing in post 105 proved that the 42 months (Rev. 13:5, 11:2b) of the Antichrist's future, Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Rev. 13:4-18, 12:9) won't be literal. Indeed, the last part of post 125 gave the reasons why the 42 months will be literal.

Incorrect, see post 105 where I explain the use of symbols in Revelation.

Also, Revelation in general is almost entirely literal, for the reasons given in the last part of post 73.

Incorrect.
Revelation 1 shows us that this book was written by John to HIS generation with a *generic* message about suffering that would apply to all generations.

1. THE LANGUAGE IS URGENT AND NEAR!

Revelation 1:1
"1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."

SOON!

Revelation 1:3
"3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

NEAR!

John expected the stuff in Revelation to begin during his lifetime! The persecution, the suffering, the tribulations, the safety of martyrs in heaven, the spiritual reign of Christ, it all started 2000 years ago.

2. JOHN SPECIFICALLY SAYS HE *ALREADY* SHARES IN THEIR *TRIBULATION*

Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (NASB)

John shares their tribulation which had *already* started! It started 2000 years ago, and continues to this day. We see it in history and around the world *any* time a 'beast' government starts to kill God's people.

The Roman persecution against Christians would have been especially troubling to Jewish Christians who expected the Messiah to save Israel from her enemies. What was the point of belonging to this 'new' Israel of the church if it didn't guarantee any national or personal security? How were Christians to understand the eventual fall of the temple? John answers these questions. Revelation is primarily a theological sermon that covered where the true temple now lives, true security exists, and how our true home is being prepared.

It was written TO them and was ABOUT their trials and temptations. But it also applies generally to all Christians in all ages as we all suffer for our Lord. Just as 1 Corinthians was written specifically to the Corinthian church but is also God's word to all generations, so Revelation was written to specific Christians but the themes and message are timeless. (Well, for all Christians living in these Last Days which started in Acts 2!)

3. IT'S A GOSPEL SERMON THAT APPLIES TO ALL AGES, EVEN IF WRITTEN IN APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE!

Revelation 1:2
"who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ."
The testimony of Jesus Christ is another way of speaking of the basic gospel message of the Apostles.

We know it is apocalyptic (a genre of writing common to Jews between 200BC to 200AD) because of the biblical symbols used in the book. In Revelation 1 Jesus is introduced in a similar style to the Son of Man before the Ancient of Days in Daniel. But then there's a New Testament twist. John mixes and matches his imagery to suit the theology of his sermon. "...and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword." The Sword is the Sword of the Spirit, the word of God. Jesus, the WORD, is about to speak to John!

John has specifically said this book is about the testimony of Jesus Christ and now adds a biblical symbol of the power of that testimony. The Sword of the Spirit is about to speak, so pay attention! Listen up! The Lord is speaking, and (as John has already said) it is a testimony about himself. That's the gospel. Hear and obey! "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near."

Which is kind of hard to do if it is not even directed TO you or ABOUT you. But because this was the gospel being preached, it *IS* to us and about us, and all Christians until the Lord returns.

THE SCROLL IN REVELATION 5 IS ABOUT THE GOSPEL AS WELL!
John weeps that no one can open Daniel's scroll, as it contains the answer to the great mystery of how God was going to redeem his people. But Jesus can open it. Why? Because he "has overcome". And...

"“ Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation."
10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

Jesus is the POINT of the whole bible, the subject of the scroll, and the answer to Daniel's question. Jesus is the one who saves people from every nation and creates a brand new kingdom and priests. The GOSPEL is the mystery from ages past now revealed to the Apostles. The scroll of Revelation 5 is not another question to solve but an answer to Daniel's conundrum! It's the gospel.


4. THE GOSPEL ITSELF HAS US THINKING OF THE LORD'S RETURN IN SALVATION AND JUDGEMENT
Critics of Amillennialism often argue that because the last few chapters describe Judgement Day the whole book must be a timetable. The problem is, the description of Judgement Day itself isn't a timetable! Judgement Day is described and repeated 3 times in various chapters at the end of the book. Rather than seeing Revelation as our own personal crystal ball and trying to guess specifically who and what each symbol 'is', we are meant to remember the *theological* importance of each image. And, surprise surprise, here we see the Lord's return is integral to the gospel sermon John is preaching in the first place!

Rev 1:5
"To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen."

In verse 5 Jesus freed us from our sins. But thoughts of Jesus suffering lead John straight to His glorious return.

He is coming back the way he went, on the clouds. This is the ancient symbol of the Cloud Rider; a victorious and mighty ruler like the Ancient of Days. The return of the Cloud Rider is the Return of the King. It means Judgement Day.

According to John, the moment we remember Jesus died for our blood should also be the moment we remember his comforting words that although he suffered (and us with him!), he WILL return. Like any good introduction, John is letting us know what this book will be all about. We see generic picture language that explains the gospel hope of Jesus return to suffering Christians. We will NOT give in to persecution and temptation. We will NOT betray God and live for worldly wealth, worldly philosophy, and worldly powers. Because, in the end, the Lord *will* Judges them all. This is our gospel hope. It's not some weak future timetable that robs the book of relevance and meaning to us.

5. THERE IS NO WAY TO INSERT 2000 YEARS AND REMAIN FAITHFUL TO THE TEXT!
Revelation 4 is often quoted to support a big leap of time into the future.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven... Immediately I was in the Spirit".
Let us note that it does NOT say "Insert 2000 years here please, and then we'll move on to our timeline of future history!" That will not do. It contradicts John's command for *his* readers to hear and understand and obey the *gospel* message he is preaching, and it robs the verses above of their true meaning.

But John *does* give us a timeframe for his book. It is going to cover the Last Days. In Rev 1 he has already said "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day" which means he is thinking of the Age of the Spirit which finds its fulfilment on the great and terrible day of the Lord. Here it is again in Rev 4. "Immediately I was in the Spirit". "After these things" is moving on from the specifics of the letters to the 7 churches to general truths across the whole Last Days. A careful study of Acts 2 and Joel will also back this up. We are in the Last Days, and have been for 2000 years. Most of the images in Revelation are theological statements about suffering in the Last Days, not 'events' that must be decoded.

6. THE FACT OF JUDGEMENT DAY IN THE LAST CHAPTERS *STILL* DOES NOT MAKE THIS A TIMETABLE!
Some argue that Judgement Day is an event, therefore the whole book is a series of events, not symbolic sermons. But there's a problem. Judgement Day is described about 3 times in vivid imagery from different angles. Revelation 17, 19, and 20 all describe different aspects of the same Judgement of our Lord! This makes it even *harder* to see Revelation as a future timeline when it seems to waltz around the same things again and again! No, it's symbolically describing important theological truths about Judgement Day. Not arbitrary timetables.

John started off telling us in Chapter 1 that he was writing about the gospel, and the gospel leads to Judgement. We should not be surprised that the book deals with the harsh realities of our lives now, but culminates in our glorious hope! How many stories have you heard describe heartache and pain that is ultimately resolved and rewarded? John is the ultimate storyteller, only the story he's telling is the gospel itself.

7. A FUTURE TIMETABLE MAKES IT COMPLETELY INCOMPREHENSIBLE TO JOHN'S GENERATION.

* Covenant Amils see it as an incredibly PRACTICAL book for all Christians in all ages. It encourages them to not give into suffering and refuse to follow the worldly short-term gains of materialism and worldly power and success and sensuality.
* Futurists make it irrelevant to all but the last generation.

* Covenant Amils see Revelation as clear symbolic sermons that interpret themselves according to other symbols in the bible, and are applicable to all Christians in all situations.
* Futurists see it as utterly dependent on today's headlines, and therefore inaccessible to everyone before this generation.

* Covenant Amils use a consistent symbolic hermeneutic.
* Futurists use an inconsistent 'literal' hermeneutic which contradicts itself so frequently the system implodes. Does Jesus have 7 horns and 7 eyes or not? Is the book literal or not? Nothing futurists have said addresses the fundamental point that their literal hermeneutic is inconsistently applied.


My Commentaries:
A great SHORT commentary on Revelation that helps unpack it quickly is also quite cheap. It's "Revelation Unwrapped" by John Richardson, and takes a mostly Reformed Amil Symbolic approach to the obvious and even more obscure Old Testament symbols used by John.

Try the Book Depository: under $6 and worldwide postage is FREE!
Revelation Unwrapped: Commentary on Revelation : Paperback : John Richardson : 9780952489429

Another great commentary that takes a more Preterist / Historical view is by Dr Paul Barnett, "Apocalypse Now and then". Paul lecturered in Ancient History at Macquarie University as well as being an ordained Bishop of North Sydney. He ran historical tours of the bible lands, and is uniquely qualified to speak of John's historical references in Revelation. Under $15.
Apocalypse Now and Then: Reading Revelation Today : Paperback : Paul Barnett : 9781875861415

 

[Stones]

Will Jesus return like Elijah did?

 

[eclipsenow]

Will Jesus return like Elijah did?

What do you mean?
Why should he?

 

[Bethwhite]

Will Jesus return like Elijah did?

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[eclipsenow]

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

So? Does this mean Jesus is a space man?

We're talking about other dimensions here.

Also, it might help if you used a modern translation. This is the NIV.

After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

"A cloud hid him from their sight". What does that mean? How high, exactly, did he go? What temperature was it? If Jesus returns 'up' over Europe, doesn't that mean 'down' from the perspective of us Australians. None of this is spelt out.

The disciples witnessed something miraculous that day, and something miraculous will happen when the Lord returns and judges the world and creates a new heavens and new earth. The very heavens and earth themselves will be dramatically renovated! Keep that in mind. Getting too literalistic about 'up' just doesn't make sense when the very definition of 'up' is 'up' for grabs when the very laws of nature come crashing down and are transformed into eternal realities!

 

[Stones]

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

yeah, just like Elijah was going to return from where he went to. Elijah never died, he was taken up into heaven and the Jew's in the first century were waiting for the real live Elijah to return, but hey, We got John the Baptist and Jesus claimed that was Elijah??? So, I expect Jesus return will be similar...

 

[Hockey_Fan]

That's interesting. It well could be someone LIKE Jesus, but not Jesus himself. Guess we will have to wait and see how it all plays out.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 169:

Revelation 1:1
"1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."

From the viewpoint of men, part of what Rev. chs. 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Rev. 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision, for the letters to the seven literal, first-century AD local church congregations (Rev. chs. 2-3) in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Rev. 1:11b) could have foretold a first-century AD persecution (Rev. 2:10, 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Rev. chs. 6-19 will unfold "shortly" (Rev. 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Rev. 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Pet. 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Rev. chs. 6-19 from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Pet. 3:9).

eclipsenow said in post 169:

Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (NASB)

"The" tribulation in Rev. 1:9 (Greek) is the general tribulation which the church has experienced from its beginning (Acts 14:22, Jn. 16:33). There is also the still-unfulfilled, unprecedented tribulation (Mt. 24:21-22) of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, which the church will experience in our future, preceding Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:29-31, Rev. 19:7-20:6). Also, the various trials individual Christians undergo, including currently, can be referred to as (plural) "tribulations" (Rom. 5:3, Eph. 3:13, 2 Thes. 1:4).

eclipsenow said in post 169:

Hear and obey! "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near."

See the "Rev. 1:3" part of post 104.

eclipsenow said in post 169:

It's not some weak future timetable that robs the book of relevance and meaning to us.

Regarding "future", Rev. chs. 6-22 are future, for the reasons given in the "Rev. chs. 6-22 are future" part of post 69.

Regarding "timetable", Rev. chs. 6-22 are a timetable, for the reasons given in the "Rev. chs. 6-22 are a timetable" part of post 69.

Regarding "relevance", see the "relevant" part of post 104.

eclipsenow said in post 169:

In Rev 1 he has already said "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day" which means he is thinking of the Age of the Spirit which finds its fulfilment on the great and terrible day of the Lord.

Rev. 1:10 means John was in the Spirit on the first day of the week (what's now commonly called Sunday). For after the Lord rose from the dead on the first day of the week (Mk. 16:9), the early church referred to the first day of the week as the Lord's day: "no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him" (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, chapter 9. Ignatius was a contemporary of John).

eclipsenow said in post 169:

Futurists see it as utterly dependent on today's headlines, and therefore inaccessible to everyone before this generation.

See the "headlines" part of post 104.

eclipsenow said in post 169:

Does Jesus have 7 horns and 7 eyes or not? Is the book literal or not?

See the "7 horns" part of post 104.

eclipsenow said in post 169:

Is the book literal or not?

See the "Revelation is almost entirely literal" part of post 73.

 

[Bible2]

Stones said in post 170:

Will Jesus return like Elijah did?

Regarding "like Elijah did", are you referring to Mt. 17:10-13? If so, that passage can be understood as referring to two different comings of Elijah, the first being John the Baptist's coming "in the spirit and power of Elijah" (Lk. 1:17, Mt. 17:12-13), and the second being a still-future physical coming back of Elijah, when he will restore all things (Mt. 17:11), in the sense of restoring all true doctrine (i.e. all true interpretation of the Bible: 2 Tim. 3:16) to the church. This still-future physical coming back of Elijah could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24.

Rev. 11:3-12's two witnesses could be Moses and Elijah, for the two men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Rev. 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Mt. 17:3), and Rev. 11:4's "two olive trees" refer back to the two men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zech. 4:11,14). Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues that the two witnesses will cause (Rev. 11:6,5) will match plagues that Moses and Elijah caused in the Old Testament (Jas. 5:17, Ex. 7:20, 2 Kin. 1:10-14). Elijah never died, but was taken bodily into heaven (2 Kin. 2:11b). And Michael retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life, like, for example, Lazarus' dead body was resuscitated back to mortal life (Jn. 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive and well at the transfiguration (Mt. 17:3).

The two witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Rev. 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5,7, 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24. That's why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Rev. 11:15) right after the time of the two witnesses on the earth will end (Rev. 11:12-15). The plagues that they will bring (Rev. 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Rev. 11:14, 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Rev. 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8), for the original Greek word (martus, G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Rev. 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason there will be two witnesses (Rev. 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Rev. 11:6,10b) would be because two witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Tim. 5:19). At the same time, the two "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Rev. 11:7-9), for the same Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Rev. 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Rev. 17:6).

Stones said in post 170:

Will Jesus return like Elijah did?

Regarding Jesus' return, that will occur "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his first coming he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud & on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Lk. 24:39), so at his 2nd coming, he'll be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Rev. 1:7, Mt. 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thes. 4:16) & set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:3-21).

Mt. 24:30 refers to Jesus' second coming, when he himself will appear in the clouds: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt. 24:30). The second coming won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

When Jesus returns, he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (Rev. 19:7-21, 1 Thes. 4:16, Zech. 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Mt. 25:31, 2 Thes. 1:7) for all the world to see (Mt. 24:27,30, Rev. 1:7). Then the church will be bodily resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) (1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thes. 4:16, Rev. 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Mt. 24:31, 2 Thes. 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thes. 4:17). At that meeting, he will judge the church (Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27; 2 Cor. 5:10, Lk. 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Rev. 19:7-8, Mt. 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and descends back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Rev. 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Rev. 19:19,21) and the Antichrist and the False Prophet (Rev. 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make Rev. 19:9's marriage supper for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isa. 25:6-9, 1 Cor. 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Rev. 19:17-18). Then Jesus and that part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Ps. 2). After the 1,000 years are over, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Rev. 20:7-10, Ezek. chs. 38-39). At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezek. 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Rev. 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Rev. 21:1, 2 Pet. 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2), the Father's house (Jn. 14:2, Rev. 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Rev. 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Rev. 22:15, 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire & brimstone with Lucifer & his angels (Rev. 20:10,15, Mt. 25:41,46).

Stones said in post 170:

Will Jesus return like Elijah did?

Christians need to be wary of future false Christs and false prophets (Mt. 24:24), who could falsely claim that they are a coming of Jesus (Mt. 24:26) in the same, spiritual sense that John the Baptist was a coming of Elijah (Lk. 1:17, Mt. 17:12-13).

It's also important for Christians to realize that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5,7), even though the world will worship both Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Rev. 13:4-8, 12:9), this won't require the Antichrist's one-world religion will say Jesus is evil or turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, Jesus himself isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 Jn. 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (Jn. 20:31, 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Cor. 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist & his False Prophet (Rev. 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim he is Jesus, returned to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. And he could perform amazing miracles (Rev. 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. Jn. 3:2). (This is one reason it's so important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will happen: Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, 1 Thes. 4:14-17, Rev. 19:7-20:6, Zech. 14:3-21.)

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Rev. 13:13-18, 19:20), including many Muslims & Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma but could go wild over his signs & wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 Jn. 4:3, Rev. 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Rev. 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Rev. 13:4-8, 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kin. 18:37-39).

 

[eclipsenow]

From the viewpoint of men, part of what Rev. chs. 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Rev. 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision, for the letters to the seven literal, first-century AD local church congregations (Rev. chs. 2-3) in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Rev. 1:11b) could have foretold a first-century AD persecution (Rev. 2:10, 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Rev. chs. 6-19 will unfold "shortly" (Rev. 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Rev. 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Pet. 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Rev. chs. 6-19 from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Pet. 3:9).



"The" tribulation in Rev. 1:9 (Greek) is the general tribulation which the church has experienced from its beginning (Acts 14:22, Jn. 16:33). There is also the still-unfulfilled, unprecedented tribulation (Mt. 24:21-22) of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, which the church will experience in our future, preceding Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:29-31, Rev. 19:7-20:6). Also, the various trials individual Christians undergo, including currently, can be referred to as (plural) "tribulations" (Rom. 5:3, Eph. 3:13, 2 Thes. 1:4).

See the "Rev. 1:3" part of post 104.

Regarding "future", Rev. chs. 6-22 are future, for the reasons given in the "Rev. chs. 6-22 are future" part of post 69.

Regarding "timetable", Rev. chs. 6-22 are a timetable, for the reasons given in the "Rev. chs. 6-22 are a timetable" part of post 69.

Regarding "relevance", see the "relevant" part of post 104.

Rev. 1:10 means John was in the Spirit on the first day of the week (what's now commonly called Sunday). For after the Lord rose from the dead on the first day of the week (Mk. 16:9), the early church referred to the first day of the week as the Lord's day: "no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him" (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, chapter 9. Ignatius was a contemporary of John).

See the "headlines" part of post 104.
See the "7 horns" part of post 104.
See the "Revelation is almost entirely literal" part of post 73.

See my post 777 where I reveal all your posts to be 666.

Everyone, please ignore Bible2. He ignores the validity of new arguments and just reasserts his older, outdated ideas. Conversations move along and new arguments are developed but this guy just ignores them all and repeats 'see my post blah blah blah' to the detriment of the conversation. Anyone trying to debate him would end up spending half their lives going back over the same tired old arguments.

The fact that he also believes there are seven Holy Spirits and that the image of the antichrist will be an android also doesn't help his credibility.

But as an example of his repetition of arguments, he refers me back to an old post of his on Matthew 24. He repeats his same schtick, but ignores the fact that there are new arguments.

For instance, in Matthew 24 I have repeatedly explained that the disciples were asking about THAT temple, Herod's temple, that they could see with their own eyes. The disciples drew Jesus attention to all those buildings, and Jesus said they would be destroyed in that generation. They were. In AD70 Titus marched his troops in and they trashed the city of Jerusalem and especially the temple, where melted gold had dripped down into the drains so the troops had to remove every single stone from each other to get to it.

In other words, the prophecy was fulfilled.

Bible2 objects. He wants to insert extra details into the Olivet discourse that are JUST NOT THERE! He has extra 'requirements' of the passage. One of them is that every single stone of the entire temple complex must be thrown down, including any retaining walls that helped hold up the foundations that held up the buildings. But that's not demanded by the passage. A normal reading of the text shows the disciples pointed out the temple buildings to Jesus which were beautifully decorated, not it's unremarkable retaining wall! Otherwise they would have been declaring, "Oh, look what wonderful foundations!"

But here's the REAL rub. Bible2 is 'disqualifying' AD70 from his historical vantage point 2000 years in the future. He's looking back through time and 'disqualifying' this event and demanding that Matt 24 talk about some future, hypothetical, still to be built third temple.

But what that does is make Jesus out to be a liar to the disciples, because they didn't have that 2000 year historical vantage point! They didn't know he was talking about a hypothetical still to be built third temple. They couldn't have. They asked Jesus about THEIR temple, before their very eyes, and Jesus said not one stone would survive on another. (Of those buildings!) There is simply no way the disciples knew that the 'wailing wall' temple foundations would survive, thus (in Bible2's mind anyway) 'disqualifying' AD70's otherwise perfect fulfilment of Matthew 24.

If Jesus had been talking about a third temple, I'm pretty sure he would have just come out and SAID SO, and not deceived the disciples like this.

Bible2 also has very rigid demands of what the antichrist has to do in the third temple, etc etc etc.... but Luke obviously thought the antichrist was so important that he forgot to even mention him, and just mentions Titus's armies instead! (See Luke 21).

Overall, I find Bible2's argument not only misquotes and abuses half the verses you see in his posts, but ends up being whacky and heretical. (Android antichrists, seven Holy Spirits, etc).

I'm thinking about putting him on my IGNORE LIST again. It's NEVER profitable trying to engage him.
See my post 777 for more reasons why.

 

[Bethwhite]

For instance, in Matthew 24 I have repeatedly explained that the disciples were asking about THAT temple, Herod's temple, that they could see with their own eyes. The disciples drew Jesus attention to all those buildings, and Jesus said they would be destroyed in that generation. They were. In AD70 Titus marched his troops in and they trashed the city of Jerusalem and especially the temple, where melted gold had dripped down into the drains so the troops had to remove every single stone from each other to get to it.

In other words, the prophecy was fulfilled.

Bible2 objects. He wants to insert extra details into the Olivet discourse that are JUST NOT THERE! He has extra 'requirements' of the passage. One of them is that every single stone of the entire temple complex must be thrown down, including any retaining walls that helped hold up the foundations that held up the buildings. But that's not demanded by the passage. A normal reading of the text shows the disciples pointed out the temple buildings to Jesus which were beautifully decorated, not it's unremarkable retaining wall! Otherwise they would have been declaring, "Oh, look what wonderful foundations!"

But here's the REAL rub. Bible2 is 'disqualifying' AD70 from his historical vantage point 2000 years in the future. He's looking back through time and 'disqualifying' this event and demanding that Matt 24 talk about some future, hypothetical, still to be built third temple.

But what that does is make Jesus out to be a liar to the disciples, because they didn't have that 2000 year historical vantage point! They didn't know he was talking about a hypothetical still to be built third temple. They couldn't have. They asked Jesus about THEIR temple, before their very eyes, and Jesus said not one stone would survive on another. (Of those buildings!) There is simply no way the disciples knew that the 'wailing wall' temple foundations would survive, thus (in Bible2's mind anyway) 'disqualifying' AD70's otherwise perfect fulfilment of Matthew 24.

If Jesus had been talking about a third temple, I'm pretty sure he would have just come out and SAID SO, and not deceived the disciples like this.

Bible2 also has very rigid demands of what the antichrist has to do in the third temple, etc etc etc.... but Luke obviously thought the antichrist was so important that he forgot to even mention him, and just mentions Titus's armies instead! (See Luke 21).

That is one thing that you are absolutely, 100% correct about.

The desolation of Israel happened in the 1st century by the Roman armies whom God sent against Israel. It was them that left not one stone upon another, as Christ foretold not only in Matt 24 but also in Luke 19 when He wept over the city.

Luk 19:41 ¶ And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


It's very odd that people just breeze right over the Roman army destruction and desolation of Israel that has lasted for 20 centuries. It has been the longest and most horrendous destruction and desolation that Israel has ever known. And supposedly, God never even mentions it in the prophets? Supposedly, Jesus doesn't even mention it?

 

[Ronald]

=Bible2;62541156]Regarding God destroying the Old Covenant in 70 AD, the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment Jesus died on the Cross

You aren't interpreting what I wrote, I didn't say God destroyed the Old Covenant, I said He destroyed the Old Temple and prior to that, when Jesus died, that Temple became obsolete.

Regarding "a third temple w/ sacrifices would actually be an insult to Christ", they in themselves won't necessarily be an insult, for the reasons given in the second paragraph of post 124.

Yeah, I read it and your logic is flawed, comparing a spiritual temple with an empty abolished physical temple and then claiming it will be acceptable to God!

The body of Christ can coexist with other temples of God, as was shown in the first paragraph of post 124.

[/quote]
Sure we all co-exist with false religions, false philosophies, evil and sin too, but does that mean they are acceptable to God?

Besides, don't you think the animal activists will be out demonstrating against these presumed sacrifices?

P.S. Pretty soon we will have to require you to hyperlink all your posts, or create a concordance that we can purchase and enjoy researching all your lengthly posts. Try and keep them shorter ...OK?

 

[Frenchfrye]

You aren't interpreting what I wrote, I didn't say God destroyed the Old Covenant, I said He destroyed the Old Temple and prior to that, when Jesus died, that Temple became obsolete.


Yeah, I read it and your logic is flawed, comparing a spiritual temple with an empty abolished physical temple and then claiming it will be acceptable to God!

Sure we all co-exist with false religions, false philosophies, evil and sin too, but does that mean they are acceptable to God?

Besides, don't you think the animal activists will be out demonstrating against these presumed sacrifices?

P.S. Pretty soon we will have to require you to hyperlink all your posts, or create a concordance that we can purchase and enjoy researching all your lengthly posts. Try and keep them shorter ...OK?[/QUOTE]

if your talking about laws and sacrifices, Hebrews talks about how the law that ended was the sacrificial laws because they were a representation of Christ so sacrificing after he died is trying to say that he wasn't good enough