predicting Christ's coming

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Christ already returned on the third day that is why we celebrate his Resurrection, the link then to our Resurrection is tenuous at best.

These instructions were given when the Lord Jesus ascended into heaven.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[Interplanner]

to Indy re the gazing disciples.
Not that i agree with progmonk here, but what you quoted from ACts are not instructions. He is simply saying (my interp) that Christ will be returning/materializing as matter-of-factly as what you just saw happen (his ascension).

There are instructions given in this scene: to take the Gospel out from Jerusalem to the end of the earth (the geographic end)

--inter

 

[Bethwhite]

Jesus is coming again.

Acts 3:21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Hosea 6:“Come, let us return to the Lord.
He has torn us to pieces
but he will heal us;
he has injured us
but he will bind up our wounds.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.
3 Let us acknowledge the Lord;
let us press on to acknowledge him.
As surely as the sun rises,
he will appear;
he will come to us like the winter rains,
like the spring rains that water the earth.”

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[Keachian]

Christ is returning, yes he is returning, in fact you can't post in this area if you do not believe that he is coming.

From the Nicene Creed:
"He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead.
And his Kingdom will have no end."

 

[Bethwhite]

Christ is returning, yes he is returning, in fact you can't post in this area if you do not believe that he is coming.

From the Nicene Creed:
"He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead.
And his Kingdom will have no end."

Returning...and reigning for 1000 years on the 3rd day, after the beast is destroyed:

Acts 3:21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Hosea 6:“Come, let us return to the Lord.
He has torn us to pieces
but he will heal us;
he has injured us
but he will bind up our wounds.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.
3 Let us acknowledge the Lord;
let us press on to acknowledge him.
As surely as the sun rises,
he will appear;
he will come to us like the winter rains,
like the spring rains that water the earth.”

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Keachian]

Returning...and reigning for 1000 years on the 3rd day, after the beast is destroyed:

That's not what Scripture says, and that's not what the Creed says.

Christ is coming to judge, he is not coming to bring his people out of the world he is coming to judge, he will not reign just for 1000 years, his Kingdom will have no end.

He has already returned on the 3rd day, why are you looking forward?

Now and not yet in the overlap of ages.

 

[Bethwhite]

That's not what Scripture says, and that's not what the Creed says.

No, scripture actually says it:

Acts 3:21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Hosea 6:“Come, let us return to the Lord.
He has torn us to pieces
but he will heal us;
he has injured us
but he will bind up our wounds.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.
3 Let us acknowledge the Lord;
let us press on to acknowledge him.
As surely as the sun rises,
he will appear;
he will come to us like the winter rains,
like the spring rains that water the earth.”

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Christ is coming to judge, he is not coming to bring his people out of the world he is coming to judge, he will not reign just for 1000 years, his Kingdom will have no end.

He has already returned on the 3rd day, why are you looking forward?

Now and not yet in the overlap of ages.

1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 200:

They're speaking about beautiful buildings, not just a large wall.

They can be speaking about both, for both are "structures".

eclipsenow said in post 200:

The buildings were knocked down in AD70, period.

But the Wailing Wall was not knocked down.

eclipsenow said in post 200:

The word specifically says temple . . .

The Wailing Wall is considered holy by the Jews because it was part of the temple.

eclipsenow said in post 200:

This word is "gifts", isn't it?

Yes, or "offerings". And prayers are offered up (Hebrews 5:7).

Also, at the time of Jesus' first coming, the Jews could have also placed, as gifts to the temple, beautiful plaques of silver and gold inscribed with prayers high up on the wall.

eclipsenow said in post 200:

And where's the evidence that is what they did back then when they still had this thing we call the temple?

Where is the evidence that they could not have done that?

eclipsenow said in post 200:

Buildings all through Jerusalem burn.

And yet Luke 19:44 was not fulfilled, for it applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44), and the city's Wailing Wall's stones still stand "one stone upon another".

eclipsenow said in post 200:

Do you think they just huddled together in cold corners as the rest of Jerusalem burned, and told each other, "Don't worry, it will be all right, we're still God's people because the retaining wall is still intact?"

The Wailing Wall still being intact does not require that the Old Covenant system is still in effect. It just means that there is still to be a future destruction of Jerusalem, after which there will not be one stone upon another.

 

[eclipsenow]

The Wailing Wall is considered holy by the Jews because it was part of the temple.

Modern Jews are lost without their temple. The sacrificial system, which was the WHOLE POINT of Jesus quoting the AoD in Matt and Mark, has been desolate for 2000 years. The Abomination that caused the Desolation of the sacrificial system by DESTROYING THE ACTUAL TEMPLE has completely fulfilled the 3 main parts of the prophecy:
1. It was a thorough and complete AoD, exponentially longer than the Jewish Exile into Babylon and Persia. For 2000 years the sacrificial system has been desolate: broken, not working, defunct. For 2000 years Christians have trusted in Christ's perfect death instead as God's kingdom grows out of one nationally defined border into a worldwide kingdom. For 2000 years the AoD has been fulfilled spiritually in God's utter abandonment of that old covenant system.
2. The BUILDINGS were destroyed. I really don't care what you say about the word 'structures' or 'edifice' because you're just playing childish semantic games to avoid the point. The TEMPLE BUILDINGS WERE destroyed. Luke confirms that they were looking at the TEMPLE when they said all this, throwing light on Matthew and Mark's use of the word 'buildings'. You just cannot wriggle out of that because of some Jewish sentimental wailing at the retaining wall. That simply wasn't the focus of the discussion. The TEMPLE was the focus because THAT is where the sacrifice is held, THAT is where the abomination occurred that ended that sacrifice, and THAT is what the Romans pulled down stone from stone because when the temple burned all the temple gold leaked down into the drains.
3. The horrors of the destruction of Jerusalem and the loss of life were immense and unequalled, as far as I know, in Jerusalem's history. The Crusades possibly wiped out somewhere between 1 to 3 million people over nearly 300 years.
List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But Josephus reports Titus killed over 1.1 million Jews in that one event!

Face it: the abomination that caused the desolation of the daily sacrifice, the destruction of the temple buildings so that not ONE building has one stone upon another, and that wiped out 1.1 million Jews occurred in AD70. However we are to read the Olivet discourse, we know that the AoD was predicted and accurately fulfilled. And the retaining wall has nothing to do with anything! It simply wasn't on Jesus radar or something the Christians flocked to to protect them when Titus destroyed the Jewish faith, identity, and nation by trashing their city, their temple, and dispersing their people across the ancient world!

Yes, or "offerings". And prayers are offered up (Hebrews 5:7).

For Christians but the actual GIFTS and ornate stones being discussed here were things the disciples could SEE with their EYES on the TEMPLE BUILDING! (Luke 21).

Also, at the time of Jesus' first coming, the Jews could have also placed, as gifts to the temple, beautiful plaques of silver and gold inscribed with prayers high up on the wall.

Prove it.

And yet Luke 19:44 was not fulfilled, for it applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44), and the city's Wailing Wall's stones still stand "one stone upon another".

Sorry pal, but decent historians and theologians look at the events of Titus conquest of Israel with loathing and amazement, and even a little dread at the thoroughness of God's judgement against the old covenant. You never seem to recognise literary forms, and so protesting against the Luke 19 like this is more like a kid sulking that their pet theory was proved wrong than any kind of forceful argument. The 3 reasons I gave above are more than enough to convince most bible scholars I read that the AoD happened in AD70. Jerusalem, her faith, and her people were TRASHED! The 'not one stone upon another' does not have to literally apply to every single stone on every building across the entirety of Jerusalem, as Jesus OFTEN uses Hyperbole. Look it up, you don't seem to be very informed of literary forms. (If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. etc).

The Wailing Wall still being intact does not require that the Old Covenant system is still in effect. It just means that there is still to be a future destruction of Jerusalem, after which there will not be one stone upon another.

It means nothing of the sort. All that this paragraph means is that you're stubbornly sticking to a doctrinal system that is not supported by scripture. It wouldn't be the first time someone became attached to a unsupportable system, and it won't be the last. But given the weight of the evidence above, you're grasping at straws while your argument drowns.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 209:

Modern Jews are lost without their temple.

Modern, unbelieving Jews will be lost even when the third temple is built during the future tribulation (Rev. 11:1-2, Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31,36; 2 Thes. 2:4), for salvation requires faith in Jesus (John 3:36).

eclipsenow said in post 209:

The BUILDINGS were destroyed. I really don't care what you say about the word 'structures' or 'edifice' because you're just playing childish semantic games to avoid the point.

The point is that the original Greek does not require a limitation to the literal sense of the English word "buildings".

eclipsenow said in post 209:

The TEMPLE BUILDINGS WERE destroyed. Luke confirms that they were looking at the TEMPLE when they said all this, throwing light on Matthew and Mark's use of the word 'buildings'.

Luke 21:5-6 can refer to the stones of the entire second temple complex, including its Wailing Wall.

In Luke 21:5, the original Greek word (kalos, G2570) translated as "goodly" (in reference to the temple's stones) can mean "beautiful" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). At the time of Jesus' first coming, the stones of the temple's Wailing Wall could have been quite beautiful, polished to an amazing, gleaming perfection. Compare the disciples' exclamation: "see what manner of stones ... are here!" (Mark 13:1).

eclipsenow said in post 209:

However we are to read the Olivet discourse, we know that the AoD was predicted and accurately fulfilled.

It could be fulfilled in the future by the Antichrist (see the "in Mt. 24:15" part of post 111).

eclipsenow said in post 209:

And the retaining wall has nothing to do with anything!

The Wailing Wall has to do with the temple.

eclipsenow said in post 209:

For Christians but the actual GIFTS and ornate stones being discussed here were things the disciples could SEE with their EYES on the TEMPLE BUILDING! (Luke 21).

And possibly also on the Wailing Wall. For in Luke 21:5, the original Greek word (anathema, G0334) translated as "gifts" can refer to "a votive offering" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), which would include prayers, for they can be offered (Hebrews 5:7). And the Greek word is derived from the Greek word anatithemai (G0394), which can mean to "communicate" (Galatians 2:2). Even today Jews stick pieces of paper with prayer requests between the stones of the temple's Wailing Wall hoping that this will help them to communicate with God. At the time of Jesus' first coming, the Jews could have also placed, as gifts to the temple, beautiful plaques of silver and gold inscribed with prayers high up on the wall.

eclipsenow said in post 209:

Prove it.

Prove it is impossible.

eclipsenow said in post 209:

The 'not one stone upon another' does not have to literally apply to every single stone on every building across the entirety of Jerusalem, as Jesus OFTEN uses Hyperbole.

Nothing requires that the "not one" part of Luke 19:44 is hyperbole, just as nothing requires that the "not one" part of Romans 3:12 is hyperbole, or that the "not one" part of Luke 12:6 is hyperbole, or that the "not one" part of Matthew 18:10 is hyperbole.

 

[eclipsenow]

Modern, unbelieving Jews will be lost even when the third temple is built during the future tribulation (Rev. 11:1-2, Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31,36; 2 Thes. 2:4), for salvation requires faith in Jesus (John 3:36).

This is futurist propaganda that's entirely speculative and totally irrelevant to the current conversation.

Luke 21:5-6 can refer to the stones of the entire second temple complex, including its Wailing Wall.

Prove it! Show me in the greek that temple doesn't mean temple. You're just making this up!

In Luke 21:5, the original Greek word (kalos, G2570) translated as "goodly" (in reference to the temple's stones) can mean "beautiful" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). At the time of Jesus' first coming, the stones of the temple's Wailing Wall could have been quite beautiful, polished to an amazing, gleaming perfection. Compare the disciples' exclamation: "see what manner of stones ... are here!" (Mark 13:1).

Utter speculative rubbish when the Disciples clearly used the word TEMPLE in the GREEK! So why don't you stop analysing every other word in the passage and actually look, with your eyes (instead of your futurist propaganda) at what the passage actually says.

The Wailing Wall has to do with the temple.

What a silly little 'answer'. They said the word TEMPLE in the Greek. Now run away and study that word a bit.



But I note, with amusement, that you've totally ignored the main thrust of the whole Abomination that Causes Desolation! You WANT this passage to say "The Abomination that Causes the Desolation of the WAILING WALL!", as if that was the most important thing that the disciples could think of!


That shows a COMPLETE failure to understand Daniel's AoD and what happened under Antiochus Epiphanes that Jesus was referring to. You've TOTALLY failed to understand the spiritual consequences of the AoD which WAS fulfilled back in AD70.

So, for your benefit, I repeat:

Modern Jews are lost without their temple. The sacrificial system, which was the WHOLE POINT of Jesus quoting the AoD in Matt and Mark, has been desolate for 2000 years. The Abomination that caused the Desolation of the sacrificial system by DESTROYING THE ACTUAL TEMPLE has completely fulfilled the 3 main parts of the prophecy:
1. It was a thorough and complete AoD, exponentially longer than the Jewish Exile into Babylon and Persia. For 2000 years the sacrificial system has been desolate: broken, not working, defunct. For 2000 years Christians have trusted in Christ's perfect death instead as God's kingdom grows out of one nationally defined border into a worldwide kingdom. For 2000 years the AoD has been fulfilled spiritually in God's utter abandonment of that old covenant system.
2. The BUILDINGS were destroyed. I really don't care what you say about the word 'structures' or 'edifice' because you're just playing childish semantic games to avoid the point. The TEMPLE BUILDINGS WERE destroyed. Luke confirms that they were looking at the TEMPLE when they said all this, throwing light on Matthew and Mark's use of the word 'buildings'. You just cannot wriggle out of that because of some Jewish sentimental wailing at the retaining wall. That simply wasn't the focus of the discussion. The TEMPLE was the focus because THAT is where the sacrifice is held, THAT is where the abomination occurred that ended that sacrifice, and THAT is what the Romans pulled down stone from stone because when the temple burned all the temple gold leaked down into the drains.
3. The horrors of the destruction of Jerusalem and the loss of life were immense and unequalled, as far as I know, in Jerusalem's history. The Crusades possibly wiped out somewhere between 1 to 3 million people over nearly 300 years.
List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But Josephus reports Titus killed over 1.1 million Jews in that one event!

Face it: the abomination that caused the desolation of the daily sacrifice, the destruction of the temple buildings so that not ONE building has one stone upon another, and that wiped out 1.1 million Jews occurred in AD70. However we are to read the Olivet discourse, we know that the AoD was predicted and accurately fulfilled. And the retaining wall has nothing to do with anything! It simply wasn't on Jesus radar or something the Christians flocked to to protect them when Titus destroyed the Jewish faith, identity, and nation by trashing their city, their temple, and dispersing their people across the ancient world!

Decent historians and theologians look at the events of Titus conquest of Israel with loathing and amazement, and even a little dread at the thoroughness of God's judgement against the old covenant. You never seem to recognise literary forms, and so protesting against the Luke 19 like this is more like a kid sulking that their pet theory was proved wrong than any kind of forceful argument. The 3 reasons I gave above are more than enough to convince most bible scholars I read that the AoD happened in AD70. Jerusalem, her faith, and her people were TRASHED! The 'not one stone upon another' does not have to literally apply to every single stone on every building across the entirety of Jerusalem, as Jesus OFTEN uses Hyperbole. Look it up, you don't seem to be very informed of literary forms. (If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. etc).

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 211:

Show me in the greek that temple doesn't mean temple.

Show from the Greek that "temple" cannot include the temple's Wailing Wall.

eclipsenow said in post 211:

But I note, with amusement, that you've totally ignored the main thrust of the whole Abomination that Causes Desolation!

The abomination of desolation was addressed in detail in the "in Mt. 24:15" part of post 111.

eclipsenow said in post 211:

You WANT this passage to say "The Abomination that Causes the Desolation of the WAILING WALL!", as if that was the most important thing that the disciples could think of!

No, for the abomination of desolation has to do with something being placed standing in the specific "holy place" (that is, the inner sanctum) part of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

eclipsenow said in post 211:

So, for your benefit, I repeat: . . .

What you repeated was addressed in post 210.

 

[eclipsenow]

Show from the Greek that "temple" cannot include the temple's Wailing Wall.

I already did. It's the Greek word for Temple, not structure or edifice. See my previous posts for more detail.

No, for the abomination of desolation has to do with something being placed standing in the specific "holy place" (that is, the inner sanctum) part of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

No, because while Daniel referred to an abomination that literally occurred in the Holy Place, with what Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificing pigs to Zeus, Jesus could have been referring to his own death as an abomination, standing in the Holy Place between God's wrath and our sin. Let the reader understand! Jesus had just said he was the temple. It's the week leading up to his execution. The disciples are asking about the end of the age. He's the bridge between the Old Covenant and the New, the national Israel and the whole new deal of the gospel age going out to all the world. His death is the abomination that caused the spiritual desolation that ends the sacrificial era.

What you repeated was addressed in post 210.

No they were not addressed in Post 210, not sufficiently. You haven't explained why you are letting an almost Autistic focus on the Wailing Wall blind you to the fact that the Spiritual Requirement for the sacrifice was laid desolate on Jesus death, and the Physical Potential for sacrifice was laid desolate by Titus. The wailing wall's got nothing to do with it. The Jews are not to sacrifice to a bit of retaining wall! They need a whole temple to do that!

Spiritually, and physically, the sacrifice has been desolate for 2000 years. Over a million Jews were slaughtered by the sword, exactly as Luke 21 predicted. (WITHOUT reference to the AoD, might I add!)

So, I think you've got a bit of work to do because you're just plain wrong. The AoD was 2000 years ago. Try again.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Since the Bible says no man shell know the date or the hour how much is acceptable when it comes to predicting His return? Is it OK to predict He come within your lifetime within the next 100 years or should we not try at all?

I think it's "interesting" to try and predict time frames for a lot of people (i'm guilty of this myself), but an exact date? No.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 213:

It's the Greek word for Temple, not structure or edifice.

The structure or edifice discussion related to the Greek word translated as "buildings", not the Greek word translated as "temple".

Also, it hasn't been shown how either Greek word cannot include the temple's Wailing Wall.

eclipsenow said in post 213:

No, because while Daniel referred to an abomination that literally occurred in the Holy Place, with what Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificing pigs to Zeus, Jesus could have been referring to his own death as an abomination, standing in the Holy Place between God's wrath and our sin.

No, for the church is commanded to flee Judaea into the mountains when it sees the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15-16), whereas the church was commanded to remain in Jerusalem after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection (Luke 24:49,52, Acts 1:4 to 2:47). The church even continued to worship in the temple (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

eclipsenow said in post 213:

Jesus had just said he was the temple.

The ultimate temple will be the Trinity itself on the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, which contains no temple building (Rev. 21:22). Jesus' individual human body is already a temple of God (Jn. 2:21), and at the time of his first coming, his body-temple coexisted with the 2nd temple building in Jerusalem, which was also indwelt by God at the same time (Mt. 23:21). And his body-temple also coexisted (and still coexists today) with the literal temple building in heaven (Rev. 11:19). There's now also the church-as-a-whole figurative temple building (Eph. 2:21), and the myriad different temples of every Christian's individual human body (1 Cor. 6:19). There will also be a 3rd, earthly, literal temple building in Jerusalem during the future tribulation (Rev. 11:1-2, Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31,36, 2 Thes. 2:4), and also a 4th earthly, literal temple building in Jerusalem during the future millennium (Zech. 14:20-21), which won't begin until after Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:7-20:6, Zech. 14:3-21).

eclipsenow said in post 213:

The wailing wall's got nothing to do with it.

The Wailing Wall could be included in Matthew 24:1-2.

eclipsenow said in post 213:

The Jews are not to sacrifice to a bit of retaining wall!

It hasn't been said that they are.

eclipsenow said in post 213:

The AoD was 2000 years ago.

It could be fulfilled in the future by the Antichrist (see the "in Mt. 24:15" part of post 111).

 

[eclipsenow]

The structure or edifice discussion related to the Greek word translated as "buildings", not the Greek word translated as "temple". Also, it hasn't been shown how either Greek word cannot include the temple's Wailing Wall.

Show me where this exact rendering of the word is used to describe the retaining wall! At the best you could include the courtyard and it's buildings, but these also were destroyed. You're really stretching into an argument from silence!

hieron: temple. ​

Original Word: ἱερόν, οῦ, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: hieron
Phonetic Spelling: (hee-er-on')
Short Definition: a temple
Definition: a temple, either the whole building, or specifically the outer courts, open to worshippers.

See? Everything here was DESTROYED in AD70. There has been no need for sacrifice since the system was laid desolate by Jesus death and resurrection. There has been no ABILITY to sacrifice because there has been no TEMPLE for 2000 years! But don't worry Israel, because Bible2 thinks the WAILING WALL disqualifies the Abomination that Caused Desolation 2000 years ago, so you didn't lose 1.1 million people to Titus, didn't lose your national identity as your city burned to the ground, your temple was destroyed, and your people removed from Palestine to cover the globe. That was all a distraction! The REAL abomination that causes desolation will be when the retaining wall of the temple will come down! Now THAT will be an abomination FAR worse than the murder of 1.1 million Jews, destruction of your city and your temple and your ability to sacrifice.

ἱεροῦ (hierou) — 19 OccurrencesMatthew 4:5 N-GNS
BIB: πτερύγιον τοῦ ἱεροῦ
KJV: on a pinnacle of the temple,
INT: pinnacle of the temple
Matthew 12:6 N-GNS
BIB: ὅτι τοῦ ἱεροῦ μεῖζόν ἐστιν
KJV: is [one] greater than the temple.
INT: that the temple a greater is
Matthew 24:1 N-GNS
BIB: ἀπὸ τοῦ ἱεροῦ ἐπορεύετο καὶ
KJV: and departed from the temple: and his
INT: from the temple went away and
Matthew 24:1 N-GNS
BIB: οἰκοδομὰς τοῦ ἱεροῦ
KJV: him the buildings of the temple.
INT: buildings of the temple
Mark 11:16 N-GNS
BIB: διὰ τοῦ ἱεροῦ
KJV: [any] vessel through the temple.
INT: through the temple
Mark 13:1 N-GNS
BIB: ἐκ τοῦ ἱεροῦ λέγει αὐτῷ
KJV: went out of the temple, one of his
INT: out of the temple says to him
Mark 13:3 N-GNS
BIB: κατέναντι τοῦ ἱεροῦ ἐπηρώτα αὐτὸν
KJV: over against the temple, Peter
INT: opposite the temple asked him
Luke 2:37 N-GNS
BIB: ἀφίστατο τοῦ ἱεροῦ νηστείαις καὶ
KJV: from the temple, but served
INT: departed the temple with fastings and
Luke 4:9 N-GNS
BIB: πτερύγιον τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ εἶπεν
KJV: on a pinnacle of the temple, and said
INT: pinnacle of the temple and said
Luke 21:5 N-GNS
BIB: περὶ τοῦ ἱεροῦ ὅτι λίθοις
KJV: of the temple, how
INT: about the temple that with stones
Luke 22:52 N-GNS
BIB: στρατηγοὺς τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ πρεσβυτέρους
KJV: captains of the temple, and
INT: captains of the temple and elders
John 2:15 N-GNS
BIB: ἐκ τοῦ ἱεροῦ τά τε
KJV: out of the temple, and
INT: from the temple both
John 8:59 N-GNS
BIB: ἐκ τοῦ ἱεροῦ διελθὼν διὰ
KJV: went out of the temple, going through
INT: out of the temple going through
Acts 3:2 N-GNS
BIB: θύραν τοῦ ἱεροῦ τὴν λεγομένην
KJV: the gate of the temple which
INT: gate of the temple called
Acts 3:10 N-GNS
BIB: Πύλῃ τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ ἐπλήσθησαν
KJV: gate of the temple: and
INT: gate of the temple and they were filled
Acts 4:1 N-GNS
BIB: στρατηγὸς τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ οἱ
KJV: the captain of the temple, and
INT: captain of the temple and the
Acts 5:24 N-GNS
BIB: στρατηγὸς τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ οἱ
KJV: the captain of the temple and
INT: [the] captain of the temple and the
Acts 21:30 N-GNS
BIB: ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ εὐθέως
KJV: him out of the temple: and forthwith
INT: outside the temple and immediately
1 Corinthians 9:13 N-GNS
BIB: ἐκ τοῦ ἱεροῦ ἐσθίουσιν οἱ
KJV: [of the things] of the temple? and they which wait
INT: of the temple eat those

No, for the church is commanded to flee Judaea into the mountains when it sees the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15-16), whereas the church was commanded to remain in Jerusalem after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection (Luke 24:49,52, Acts 1:4 to 2:47). The church even continued to worship in the temple (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

The church ran for it when Rome arrived. But 1.1 million Jews were still executed. Rome turns up with soldiers actually armed with actual swords! Come on Mister "I take the bible literally!" What does the text say? Fixed Bayonets? NO! Be consistent for ONCE in your life and admit that the verse was actually talking about actual swords, and the actual temple, being actually destroyed the way it actually was in AD70.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 216:

Show me where this exact rendering of the word is used to describe the retaining wall!

It can include the temple's Wailing Wall in Matthew 24:1-2.

eclipsenow said in post 216:

At the best you could include the courtyard and it's buildings, but these also were destroyed.

In Matthew 24:1-2, the original Greek word (hieron, G2411) translated as "temple" can refer to "the entire precincts" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), which would include the temple's Wailing Wall.

Similarly, in Matthew 24:1-2, the original Greek word (oikodome, G3619) translated as "buildings" includes "structures" in general (Strong's Greek Dictionary), which would include the temple's Wailing Wall, and not just structures which English speakers would consider to be "buildings".

eclipsenow said in post 216:

Everything here was DESTROYED in AD70.

Not the temple's Wailing Wall. Also, Matthew 24:2's "here" can include not just the entire second temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' second coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

eclipsenow said in post 216:

The REAL abomination that causes desolation will be when the retaining wall of the temple will come down!

No, the abomination of desolation has to do with something (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) being placed standing in the specific "holy place" (that is, the inner sanctum) part of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), shortly before the Antichrist himself sits there and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). This could occur about four years before the Wailing Wall is destroyed.

 

[eclipsenow]

It can include the temple's Wailing Wall in Matthew 24:1-2.

No it can't. It means temple, not wailing wall.

In Matthew 24:1-2, the original Greek word (hieron, G2411) translated as "temple" can refer to "the entire precincts" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), which would include the temple's Wailing Wall.

The actual word were are discussing is not a derivative word, but the word for temple.

Similarly, in Matthew 24:1-2, the original Greek word (oikodome, G3619) translated as "buildings" includes "structures" in general (Strong's Greek Dictionary), which would include the temple's Wailing Wall, and not just structures which English speakers would consider to be "buildings".

You just keep telling yourself that pal, but the problem is the context shows us they were not raving about a retaining wall but the temple! The Luke story begins with the woman donating her last coins.

No, the abomination of desolation has to do with something (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) being placed standing in the specific "holy place" (that is, the inner sanctum) part of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), shortly before the Antichrist himself sits there and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). This could occur about four years before the Wailing Wall is destroyed.

No, the AoD happened in Jerusalem because otherwise how do you explain the lack of sacrifice for the last 2000 years? Jesus said the TEMPLE would be destroyed, and it was. Jesus said there would be an AoD, which is all about the desolation of the sacrificial system. It was laid desolate both by his sacrifice spiritually bankrupting the sacrificial system, and then made desolate by Titus in AD70. That's a double fulfilment of the Olivet discourse, and no petty semantic wheedling will get you out of that.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 218:

The actual word were are discussing is not a derivative word, but the word for temple.

That's right, and the word for temple (hieron, G2411) can include its "entire precincts" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), which would include the temple's Wailing Wall.

eclipsenow said in post 218:

You just keep telling yourself that pal, but the problem is the context shows us they were not raving about a retaining wall but the temple!

The context does not require any exclusion of the temple's Wailing Wall. Indeed, Mt. 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall, for it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Mt. 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple complex map insert in the Dec. 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

eclipsenow said in post 218:

The Luke story begins with the woman donating her last coins.

But Matthew 24:1-2 shows that Jesus had exited the temple complex by the time of Matthew 24:1-2.

eclipsenow said in post 218:

No, the AoD happened in Jerusalem because otherwise how do you explain the lack of sacrifice for the last 2000 years?

The lack of sacrifice for the last 2,000 years does not require that the AOD has occurred.

eclipsenow said in post 218:

Jesus said the TEMPLE would be destroyed, and it was.

Not its Wailing Wall.

eclipsenow said in post 218:

Jesus said there would be an AoD, which is all about the desolation of the sacrificial system.

That is not what it is about. The AOD is about something (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) being placed standing in the specific "holy place" (that is, the inner sanctum) part of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), shortly before the Antichrist himself sits there and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).

 

[eclipsenow]

That's right, and the word for temple (hieron, G2411) can include its "entire precincts" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), which would include the temple's Wailing Wall.

Yeah, like all these verses interpreted it 'entire precincts' didn't they? (Not!)

hieron: temple. ​

Original Word: ἱερόν, οῦ, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: hieron
Phonetic Spelling: (hee-er-on')
Short Definition: a temple
Definition: a temple, either the whole building, or specifically the outer courts, open to worshippers.


ἱεροῦ (hierou) — 19 OccurrencesMatthew 4:5 N-GNS
BIB: πτερύγιον τοῦ ἱεροῦ
KJV: on a pinnacle of the temple,
INT: pinnacle of the temple
Matthew 12:6 N-GNS
BIB: ὅτι τοῦ ἱεροῦ μεῖζόν ἐστιν
KJV: is [one] greater than the temple.
INT: that the temple a greater is
Matthew 24:1 N-GNS
BIB: ἀπὸ τοῦ ἱεροῦ ἐπορεύετο καὶ
KJV: and departed from the temple: and his
INT: from the temple went away and
Matthew 24:1 N-GNS
BIB: οἰκοδομὰς τοῦ ἱεροῦ
KJV: him the buildings of the temple.
INT: buildings of the temple
Mark 11:16 N-GNS
BIB: διὰ τοῦ ἱεροῦ
KJV: [any] vessel through the temple.
INT: through the temple
Mark 13:1 N-GNS
BIB: ἐκ τοῦ ἱεροῦ λέγει αὐτῷ
KJV: went out of the temple, one of his
INT: out of the temple says to him
Mark 13:3 N-GNS
BIB: κατέναντι τοῦ ἱεροῦ ἐπηρώτα αὐτὸν
KJV: over against the temple, Peter
INT: opposite the temple asked him
Luke 2:37 N-GNS
BIB: ἀφίστατο τοῦ ἱεροῦ νηστείαις καὶ
KJV: from the temple, but served
INT: departed the temple with fastings and
Luke 4:9 N-GNS
BIB: πτερύγιον τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ εἶπεν
KJV: on a pinnacle of the temple, and said
INT: pinnacle of the temple and said
Luke 21:5 N-GNS
BIB: περὶ τοῦ ἱεροῦ ὅτι λίθοις
KJV: of the temple, how
INT: about the temple that with stones
Luke 22:52 N-GNS
BIB: στρατηγοὺς τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ πρεσβυτέρους
KJV: captains of the temple, and
INT: captains of the temple and elders
John 2:15 N-GNS
BIB: ἐκ τοῦ ἱεροῦ τά τε
KJV: out of the temple, and
INT: from the temple both
John 8:59 N-GNS
BIB: ἐκ τοῦ ἱεροῦ διελθὼν διὰ
KJV: went out of the temple, going through
INT: out of the temple going through
Acts 3:2 N-GNS
BIB: θύραν τοῦ ἱεροῦ τὴν λεγομένην
KJV: the gate of the temple which
INT: gate of the temple called
Acts 3:10 N-GNS
BIB: Πύλῃ τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ ἐπλήσθησαν
KJV: gate of the temple: and
INT: gate of the temple and they were filled
Acts 4:1 N-GNS
BIB: στρατηγὸς τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ οἱ
KJV: the captain of the temple, and
INT: captain of the temple and the
Acts 5:24 N-GNS
BIB: στρατηγὸς τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ οἱ
KJV: the captain of the temple and
INT: [the] captain of the temple and the
Acts 21:30 N-GNS
BIB: ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ εὐθέως
KJV: him out of the temple: and forthwith
INT: outside the temple and immediately
1 Corinthians 9:13 N-GNS
BIB: ἐκ τοῦ ἱεροῦ ἐσθίουσιν οἱ
KJV: [of the things] of the temple? and they which wait
INT: of the temple eat those

The context does not require any exclusion of the temple's Wailing Wall.

I think you made a typo. You meant to write "The context does not require any specific inclusion of the temple's Wailing Wall, or any particular reference to it whatsoever. The context includes them talking about the TEMPLE and it's BUILDINGS, all of which were destroyed in AD70 in fulfilment of the AOD which completely destroyed Israel's sacrificial system, as prophesied by Jesus in the Olivet discourse". There, fixed it for you.

Indeed, Mt. 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall, for it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Mt. 24:1),

You just added a few word there mate. I'll fix it for you. Jesus had just departed from the temple, not the temple complex, as Luke 21 shows the disciples were asking about the TEMPLE and it's magnificent stones and decoration.

and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple complex map insert in the Dec. 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

That's completely and utterly and totally irrelevant, and you knew that but you're just trying to pull copious quantities of details over our path so we can't see the wood for the trees. But the 'woods' in this case are actually Luke 21's specific reference to the TEMPLE in a root word that DOES NOT include the outer areas but the temple building and courtyard, all of which were destroyed. Sorry pal, that's game over.

But Matthew 24:1-2 shows that Jesus had exited the temple complex by the time of Matthew 24:1-2.

No, you just lied by adding that word 'complex' there again pal, It's the TEMPLE building he left, and that they commented on in Luke 21.

21 Looking up, Jesus saw rich people putting their gifts into the offering box, 2 and he saw a poor widow put in two small coins. 3 And he said, “I tell you the truth, that this poor widow has put in more than all the rest. 4 For they all, out of their excess, put in their gifts, but she, out of her need, put in everything that she had to live on.”

5 And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and gifts dedicated to God, Jesus said, 6 “These things that you see—days will come in which there will not be left stone upon stone that will not be thrown down.”


Oh, what's that? An offering box? Oh wow, they of COURSE kept them on the Wailing Wall! NOT!


No, you really haven't dealt with the FACTS of this matter have you? Like the FACT that the specific word means TEMPLE and may, in the CONTEXT OF LUKE, include the temple courtyard.

The lack of sacrifice for the last 2,000 years does not require that the AOD has occurred.

You just made another one of your classic typo's there pal. I'll fix it for you. You meant to write "The lack of sacrifice for the last 2,000 years OF COURSE means the AOD has occurred."

The events of Antiochus Epiphanes in Daniel are written thusly:
Daniel 8
It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.


But then when Daniel mentions the Anointed One in Chapter 9, we know he is either talking about one of Israel's special kings that was murdered by Antiochus Epiphanes as a type for Jesus, or we know he was talking about Jesus himself! Straight after Jesus (in symbolic numbers) comes Titus.

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Note that it says AT the temple, not IN the temple. YOU are the one who constantly whines that the temple could include the buildings and edifices around it. How ironic that when looking at Daniel 9 this tactic of yours backfires, because nothing in this particular verse requires the AOD to occur IN the temple. It can occur, on the strength of this verse alone, AT the temple as the Roman soldiers sacrificed to Titus their Emperor/god.

Note that the end of the sacrifice = the AOD. Getting it yet?


Now, we get to Matthew 24.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

I think the reference to "Let the reader understand" is prophetic perspective doubling up. Jesus has JUST compared himself to the temple and that HE would die and rise again, and that this was his body, the temple, dying and rising. Mark is telling the reader to understand that this is about the gospel. That Jesus will die. That his death will be in the 'holy place', our place, the place between God and man where sin is burnt out once for all. Mark could also be asking us to remember Antiochus Epiphanes, and that it will be just LIKE that, when Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificed a pig on the altar to Zeus. But prophetic language can stretch a bit. It doesn't have to be exactly fulfilled in the particulars the way you insist: the language and details can change a little. Titus was WORSE than Antiochus Epiphanes in that:-

• 1.1 million Israelites died
• The nation was broken up for 2000 years
• The temple was not just defiled, but utterly destroyed
• There has been no sacrifice for 2000 years.

I don't care how pedantic and silly you are: AD70 completely and utterly over-fulfilled all requirements of the Olivet discourse, and any silly whining of yours about the Wailing wall or where an abominable sacrifice to Titus may have occurred are just petty carping. You need to stop this. The weight of history and theology and the details of this passage are against you. You keep repeating and repeating the same tired old rubbish. I think you're going back on my ignore list!