predicting Christ's coming

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Oh, well, I don't follow the doctrines of men. Just scripture for me.



By Christ - yes
Through Christ - yes

There are many, many yet unfulfilled prophecies regarding the church, Jerusalem, Israel, and the world. It is by/through Christ's sacrifice as well as God's promises that they will be fulfilled.

Amen!

 

[Keachian]

Oh, well, I don't follow the doctrines of men. Just scripture for me.

That's still to be seen.

There are many, many yet unfulfilled prophecies regarding the church, Jerusalem, Israel, and the world. It is by/through Christ's sacrifice as well as God's promises that they will be fulfilled.

What if I told you Christ is considered as Israel?

 

[Bethwhite]

That's still to be seen.




What if I told you Christ is considered as Israel?

Yes, I know.

We are ingrafted into the Israel of God, who is Christ.

 

[Keachian]

Yes, I know.

We are ingrafted into the Israel of God, who is Christ.

So why would there be any prophecies relating to Israel? Christ is Israel, they would relate to Christ, now look again at those prophecies, can they not have been fulfilled by Christ?

 

[Bethwhite]

So why would there be any prophecies relating to Israel? Christ is Israel, they would relate to Christ, now look again at those prophecies, can they not have been fulfilled by Christ?

No.

Paul already told you:

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

For example, look at what Israel does when Christ appears and saves them:

Zech 12:The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.


It's just as Jesus said:

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn

 

[Gnarwhal]

Oh, well, I don't follow the doctrines of men. Just scripture for me.

Everyone like you says that exact line. Frankly, it's rubbish, everyone in that same swath of fringe Christianity contradict each other. Everyone interprets the scriptures, the difference is whether they interpret it through their own personal background and experiences or if they allow it to be properly interpreted by the Holy Tradition of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. The former is folly, the latter is correct.

By Christ - yes
Through Christ - yes

There are many, many yet unfulfilled prophecies regarding the church, Jerusalem, Israel, and the world. It is by/through Christ's sacrifice as well as God's promises that they will be fulfilled.

What's left is Christ's return and the resurrection of the dead, no rapture, no special seven-year period of tribulation that somehow "dwarfs" the last 2,000 years of tribulation and insults the martyrdom of all the saints that have come before, there's not going to be a global thermonuclear war to "inaugurate the end times", nor is the present manufactured state of Israel the same as Israel from the Old Testament.

Instead of isolating yourself from the church proper and immersing yourself in fringe theology that is completely heretical, time would be better spent participating in the Holy Mysteries of the church, prayer and repentance.

 

[Bethwhite]

Everyone like you says that exact line. Frankly, it's rubbish, everyone in that same swath of fringe Christianity contradict each other. Everyone interprets the scriptures, the difference is whether they interpret it through their own personal background and experiences or if they allow it to be properly interpreted by the Holy Tradition of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. The former is folly, the latter is correct.



What's left is Christ's return and the resurrection of the dead, no rapture, no special seven-year period of tribulation that somehow "dwarfs" the last 2,000 years of tribulation and insults the martyrdom of all the saints that have come before, there's not going to be a global thermonuclear war to "inaugurate the end times", nor is the present manufactured state of Israel the same as Israel from the Old Testament.

Instead of isolating yourself from the church proper and immersing yourself in fringe theology that is completely heretical, time would be better spent participating in the Holy Mysteries of the church, prayer and repentance.

baloney.

There's no scripture that says I need some earthly church standing between me and God.

In fact, my Lord and Savior said the opposite:

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1Jo 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.
The Scriptures and the Holy Spirit were given to teach us. God never established some earthly institution to stand between man and Himself.

It's obvious why. Any institution that claims to be standing in the place of/doing the work of the Holy Spirit is committing the unforgivable sin - blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Mat 12:31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

 

[Keachian]

baloney.

There's no scripture that says I need some earthly church standing between me and God.

You have a horrible Ecclesiology, what is the Church? Why is it the body of believers, if you are to enter into the Church you are to join with them the Body of Christ, no Church is merely earthly, they are the bride of Christ.

 

[Bethwhite]

You have a horrible Ecclesiology, what is the Church? Why is it the body of believers, if you are to enter into the Church you are to join with them the Body of Christ, no Church is merely earthly, they are the bride of Christ.

Obviously. But it is not housed within four earthly walls, with a Holy Seat or governing body located in some metropolitan city somewhere.

Bigfudge was referring to the Eastern Orthodox Church, of which he is apparently a devout member.

 

[Gnarwhal]

baloney.

There's no scripture that says I need some earthly church standing between me and God.

In fact, my Lord and Savior said the opposite:

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1Jo 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.
The Scriptures and the Holy Spirit were given to teach us. God never established some earthly institution to stand between man and Himself.

It's obvious why. Any institution that claims to be standing in the place of/doing the work of the Holy Spirit is committing the unforgivable sin - blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Mat 12:31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

That's absolutely, unequivocally, rubbish.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

2 Thessalonians 3:6

But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

See? TRADITION.

Holy Tradition, the faith handed down from
Christ to the apostles and from them to their successors on down through the centuries to today.

There's no quicker way to reach heresy than to believe you all by your lonesome are just "taking the Scriptures for what they say".

 

[Gnarwhal]

Bigfudge was referring to the Eastern Orthodox Church, of which he is apparently a devout member.

Not yet, I was born and raised Protestant but I look forward to becoming a catechumen and joining the Church that Christ founded through the Apostles.

 

[Bethwhite]

That's absolutely, unequivocally, rubbish.

Scripture is rubbish?

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jo 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.
The Scriptures and the Holy Spirit were given to teach us. God never established some earthly institution to stand between man and Himself.

See? TRADITION.

Holy Tradition, the faith handed down from
Christ to the apostles and from them to their successors on down through the centuries to today.

There's no quicker way to reach heresy than to believe you all by your lonesome are just "taking the Scriptures for what they say".

Horse hockey. Context is key, there Bigfudge. The Holy Spirit is well-able to teach us and remind us of what Christ said, just as Christ told us He would. How about you quote the scripture that says an earthly Christian denomination called the Eastern Orthodox Church would teach us and remind us of what Christ said?

2 Thess 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

2 Thess 3:6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

 

[Gnarwhal]

Scripture is rubbish?

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jo 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.
The Scriptures and the Holy Spirit were given to teach us. God never established some earthly institution to stand between man and Himself.

Horse hockey. Context is key, there Bigfudge. The Holy Spirit is well-able to teach us and remind us of what Christ said, just as Christ told us He would. How about you quote the scripture that says an earthly Christian denomination called the Eastern Orthodox Church would teach us and remind us of what Christ said?

2 Thess 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

2 Thess 3:6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

No, your interpretation of it is rubbish. Context is key indeed, all those Scriptures point to the Church, the visible Church.

Lonewolfism is how people like Harold Camping come about. All personal interpretation, no proper understanding of the historic faith.

 

[Bethwhite]

No, your interpretation of it is rubbish. Context is key indeed, all those Scriptures point to the Church, the visible Church.

Lonewolfism is how people like Harold Camping come about. All personal interpretation, no proper understanding of the historic faith.

There's nothing "lonewolf" about it.

Believing in what God said in Scripture and listening to/taught by the Holy Spirit is exactly what God said to do and exactly how He said to do it.

There's a bunch of us out there! We are the church.

No earthly denomination will save you. No traditions of men will save you.

It is only by faith in Jesus' sacrifice and the power of the Holy Spirit that you will enter the Kingdom of God.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jo 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.
The Scriptures and the Holy Spirit were given to teach us. God never established some earthly institution to stand between man and Himself.

 

[Ronald]

And if the church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building which the scriptures show will exist during the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Rev. 11:1-2, Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31,36, 2 Thes. 2:4), which 3rd temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Mt. 23:21) and even at the time of the early church (Lk. 24:53, Acts 22:17).

The 2nd Temple was accepted with the Old Covenant and then God destroyed it in 70 A.D.; but prior to that, it became obsolete once Jesus died on the cross. The veil was torn and at that moment, the Holy Spirit no longer dwelt in the temple, nor were any animal sacrifices from that point on accepted. Therefore, a third temple w/ scarifices would actually be an insult to Christ, an abomination to Him when He was/is the once and for all sacrifice. Many temples, mosques, churches are built, but the fact remains, the temple is spiritually composed of the body of Christ.
This would also be a contradiction of part of His purpose during the GT, which is to save a remnant of Israel, if not all as the scripture states.

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (the OCML), which remains holy before God

NO physical future temple would be holy, a contradiction --He destroyed it, because it was obsolete! Has God changed and now considers building a new physical temple (which btw, to be holy, He would have to dwell in it and accept sacrifices for an atonement)?
Israel will be enlightened and their veils lifted and sealed before the destruction starts. If prior to that time of enlightenment, they build a temple, it will not be holy but a dishonor to Jesus!

This isn't to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the OCML 3rd temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God because the OCML in itself remains holy before God (Rom. 7:12

Rom. 7:12 is speaking of the LAW which is holy! We couldn't keep it, so Jesus fulfilled for us. He fulfilled the requirements of the LAW and blood sacrifice - the one and only and last sacrifice that would be acceptable to God.
Is God double-minded? No, He has a covenant with Israel and that covenant will be honored, it is a spiritual covenant and primarily a convenant or salvation soon to come.

 

[Bethwhite]

The 2nd Temple was accepted with the Old Covenant and then God destroyed it in 70 A.D.; but prior to that, it became obsolete once Jesus died on the cross. The veil was torn and at that moment, the Holy Spirit no longer dwelt in the temple, nor were any animal sacrifices from that point on accepted. Therefore, a third temple w/ scarifices would actually be an insult to Christ, an abomination to Him when He was/is the once and for all sacrifice. Many temples, mosques, churches are built, but the fact remains, the temple is spiritually composed of the body of Christ.
This would also be a contradiction of part of His purpose during the GT, which is to save a remnant of Israel, if not all as the scripture states.

NO physical future temple would be holy, a contradiction --He destroyed it, because it was obsolete! Has God changed and now considers building a new physical temple (which btw, to be holy, He would have to dwell in it and accept sacrifices for an atonement)?
Israel will be enlightened and their veils lifted and sealed before the destruction starts. If prior to that time of enlightenment, they build a temple, it will not be holy but a dishonor to Jesus!


Rom. 7:12 is speaking of the LAW which is holy! We couldn't keep it, so Jesus fulfilled for us. He fulfilled the requirements of the LAW and blood sacrifice - the one and only and last sacrifice that would be acceptable to God.
Is God double-minded? No, He has a covenant with Israel and that covenant will be honored, it is a spiritual covenant and primarily a convenant or salvation soon to come.

Is there a moment in time when the "door is shut" - when no one enters by the blood of Jesus anymore?

 

[Keachian]

Is there a moment in time when the "door is shut" - when no one enters by the blood of Jesus anymore?

When the trump sounds and the Son of man appears in all his glory with his angels to judge the living and the dead.

 

[Frenchfrye]

When the trump sounds and the Son of man appears in all his glory with his angels to judge the living and the dead.

probation closes when Jesus starts judging the living that means no one can switch sides so Jesus can start judging them. that date is still unknown to us

 

[Bethwhite]

When the trump sounds and the Son of man appears in all his glory with his angels to judge the living and the dead.

probation closes when Jesus starts judging the living that means no one can switch sides so Jesus can start judging them. that date is still unknown to us

Yes, and so what about all the people who live and die during the millennium? The time for salvation by the blood of the Lamb has passed, right? Isn't that why there are sacrifices again during the millennium?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Since the Bible says no man shell know the date or the hour how much is acceptable when it comes to predicting His return? Is it OK to predict He come within your lifetime within the next 100 years or should we not try at all?

None of it is acceptable. We aren't to be trying to predict such things.

"You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." - Luke 12:40

Also, "hour" doesn't mean literal hour, it means His coming can't be predicted. He could return ten minutes from now, or He could return ten thousand years from now.

-CryptoLutheran