predestined

[bling]

There is no question that there is a choice involved, what we should consider carefully, is where our choice yields to the sovereign will of God with regards to conversion. Clearly Paul is speaking of the inclusion of the Gentiles here, but perhaps it gives us something to think about with regards to salvation:

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use? What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? (Romans 9:20-22)
​

Why are some saved and some lost? (See also: Isaiah 10:15; Isaiah 45:9; Isaiah 64:8; Jeremiah 18:6; Proverbs 16:4; 2 Timothy 2:20). The children of perdition are not guiltless in their condemnation, nor the righteous with regards to submitting to God in child like faith. Your choice my provoke or precipitate God's final judgment at some level, I don't think there is much question that they do. But with regards to receiving God's divine nature, becoming a new creature in Christ and the washing, renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit we are utterly powerless, sinners in the hands of an angry God who choose as an act of his sovereign will to save some by grace alone.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I think we might be talking past each other with Romans 9. The main concept Paul is trying to get across to the Jewish and Gentile Christians is the fact “It does not matter!!” when it come to the all-important choice of salvation (Weather you were born for a common purpose [gentiles] or a special purpose [Jews]). The Potter has taken His time patiently making both, but either one can wind up worthless needing to be destroyed, but that happens after leaving the shop with those which are damaged and useless (but do not blame the Potter). The Potter does not want His name on a worthless pot.

Let’s look at your verses: Isaiah 10:15; Isaiah 45:9; Isaiah 64:8; Jeremiah 18:6; Proverbs 16:4; 2 Timothy 2:20


Is. 10:15 Does the ax raise itself above the person who swings it, or the saw boast against the one who uses it? As if a rod were to wield the person who lifts it up, or a club brandish the one who is not wood!

God controls nations, but this does not go against the individual free will choice in salvation?

Isaiah 45:9 “Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘The potter has no hands’?

Isaiah 64:8 Yet you, Lord, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.

These verses again is not addressing salvation, but the way we are all born differently and might want to be born in a different status.

Jeremiah 18:6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel.

This is again dealing with a nation and not addressing the individual, also very important here is the fact the we are talking about clay being molded and not a pot leaving the shop made.

We need to look at the context of Proverbs 16: 4 so: 1 To humans belong the plans of the heart, but from the Lord comes the proper answer of the tongue. 2 All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans. 4 The Lord works out everything to its proper end— even the wicked for a day of disaster. 5 The Lord detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished. 6 Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Lord evil is avoid When the Lord takes pleasure in anyone’s way, he causes their enemies to make peace with them.

There is something needing weighing and that is the heart which is also found in the words a person speaks. The person commits (makes a free will choice) and then the Lord establishes your plan for you, but the commitment comes first.

You also have atonement which comes by the persons Love and faithfulness, The person has the fear of the Lord to help him avoid evil.

Here again the Lord is taking pleasure in the person’s way and not in making the person go some particular way.


2 Timothy 2:20

20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Verse 21 explains: “Those who cleanse themselves”, the Lord made them wood and clay to begin with (made for a common purpose), but they can change by doing something themselves to become special.

All these verses are not addressing the question: “Why are some saved and some lost?” Except to say like in 2 Tim.2 :21 a person can “cleanse themselves” (whatever that means?).

You make this statement: “But with regards to receiving God's divine nature, becoming a new creature in Christ and the washing, renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit we are utterly powerless, sinners in the hands of an angry God who choose as an act of his sovereign will to save some by grace alone.”

Yes, God does the providing of: divine nature, becoming a new creature, washing, renewing and regeneration, while man does nothing righteous, noble, honorable, praise worthy or of value. But that does not mean sinful selfish dead man cannot do something (like the prodigal son did in his dead state as described by Christ). Sinful selfish man can still wimp out, give up and surrender (nothing noble there) and thus be humbly willing to accept pure sacrificial charity from his enemy, God. (Realize at the moment of the sinner’s surrendering God is still his enemy and he could easily feel he could be cruelly tortured to death for his previous war crimes. The sinner is not joining God’s army at this time).

The whole reason for the sinner having to reach the point of humble accept God’s pure charity is because he has to want Godly type Love as a free will choice. Godly type Love cannot come to the sin instinctively because that would make it robotic. Not to want Godly type Love is not to want God and heaven where heaven is like one huge Love feast. The person has the choice of continuing to pursue the perceived pleasures of sin or accept God’s Love. Also, the only way for the sinner to obtain Godly type Love for Himself is by accepting God’s forgiveness, as Jesus taught us: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”, so if you are forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt you will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

What you seems to be saying is: God arbitrarily selects only some sinners to save and the others for no good reason God does not save. This is like a rescuer only saving some out of a burning building while he could just as safely and easily save them all?

 

[mark kennedy]

I think we might be talking past each other with Romans 9. The main concept Paul is trying to get across to the Jewish and Gentile Christians is the fact “It does not matter!!” when it come to the all-important choice of salvation (Weather you were born for a common purpose [gentiles] or a special purpose [Jews]). The Potter has taken His time patiently making both, but either one can wind up worthless needing to be destroyed, but that happens after leaving the shop with those which are damaged and useless (but do not blame the Potter). The Potter does not want His name on a worthless pot.

Let’s look at your verses: Isaiah 10:15; Isaiah 45:9; Isaiah 64:8; Jeremiah 18:6; Proverbs 16:4; 2 Timothy 2:20


Is. 10:15 Does the ax raise itself above the person who swings it, or the saw boast against the one who uses it? As if a rod were to wield the person who lifts it up, or a club brandish the one who is not wood!

God controls nations, but this does not go against the individual free will choice in salvation?

Isaiah 45:9 “Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘The potter has no hands’?

Isaiah 64:8 Yet you, Lord, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.

These verses again is not addressing salvation, but the way we are all born differently and might want to be born in a different status.

Jeremiah 18:6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel.

This is again dealing with a nation and not addressing the individual, also very important here is the fact the we are talking about clay being molded and not a pot leaving the shop made.

We need to look at the context of Proverbs 16: 4 so: 1 To humans belong the plans of the heart, but from the Lord comes the proper answer of the tongue. 2 All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans. 4 The Lord works out everything to its proper end— even the wicked for a day of disaster. 5 The Lord detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished. 6 Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Lord evil is avoid When the Lord takes pleasure in anyone’s way, he causes their enemies to make peace with them.

There is something needing weighing and that is the heart which is also found in the words a person speaks. The person commits (makes a free will choice) and then the Lord establishes your plan for you, but the commitment comes first.

You also have atonement which comes by the persons Love and faithfulness, The person has the fear of the Lord to help him avoid evil.

Here again the Lord is taking pleasure in the person’s way and not in making the person go some particular way.


2 Timothy 2:20

20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Verse 21 explains: “Those who cleanse themselves”, the Lord made them wood and clay to begin with (made for a common purpose), but they can change by doing something themselves to become special.

All these verses are not addressing the question: “Why are some saved and some lost?” Except to say like in 2 Tim.2 :21 a person can “cleanse themselves” (whatever that means?).

You make this statement: “But with regards to receiving God's divine nature, becoming a new creature in Christ and the washing, renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit we are utterly powerless, sinners in the hands of an angry God who choose as an act of his sovereign will to save some by grace alone.”

Yes, God does the providing of: divine nature, becoming a new creature, washing, renewing and regeneration, while man does nothing righteous, noble, honorable, praise worthy or of value. But that does not mean sinful selfish dead man cannot do something (like the prodigal son did in his dead state as described by Christ). Sinful selfish man can still wimp out, give up and surrender (nothing noble there) and thus be humbly willing to accept pure sacrificial charity from his enemy, God. (Realize at the moment of the sinner’s surrendering God is still his enemy and he could easily feel he could be cruelly tortured to death for his previous war crimes. The sinner is not joining God’s army at this time).

The whole reason for the sinner having to reach the point of humble accept God’s pure charity is because he has to want Godly type Love as a free will choice. Godly type Love cannot come to the sin instinctively because that would make it robotic. Not to want Godly type Love is not to want God and heaven where heaven is like one huge Love feast. The person has the choice of continuing to pursue the perceived pleasures of sin or accept God’s Love. Also, the only way for the sinner to obtain Godly type Love for Himself is by accepting God’s forgiveness, as Jesus taught us: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”, so if you are forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt you will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

What you seems to be saying is: God arbitrarily selects only some sinners to save and the others for no good reason God does not save. This is like a rescuer only saving some out of a burning building while he could just as safely and easily save them all?

I don't see much here I would disagree with, of course we are arguing past one another but it's a deep topic. I studied a lot of the creation/evolution thing, you know the word for 'created' in Genesis is used in Isaiah for the creation of Israel? Something strange happened in the first century, something unexpected, God decided to include the Gentiles. Was that the plan all along, because there is every indication that he did. All we really have is a promise, you believe the gospel and receive the Holy Spirit and you are saved. God never gave up on Israel, no matter how many times the children of Israel went astray. God judges the nations, we all have a lot to answer for, but always God gives us a choice and it's the righteousness of God in Christ or perdition, there is no third choice.

While I navigate all the 'ologies' and 'isms', I'm continually reminded of how much I don't know. I know this, the one who makes the promise is faithful, and those he loves he corrects. Sure salvation is free but it will cost you plenty, you can't earn it but then again once received there comes a responsibility. Job couldn't figure out what he did wrong but it wasn't what he did wrong that made him so miserable, it was because God was bragging on him. The core doctrine I keep coming back to is justification by grace through faith, grace calls us, grace saves us, grace equips us for service.

I run into this all the time, of course there is a choice. I know Calvinists and I haven't seen them deny this, but it's a secondary cause. You can choose Christ all day long and it's meaningless until God chooses you. We really don't know why, we know it goes back to the thoughts and inclinations of the heart but beyond that we are guessing.

The clay saying to the potter, 'what makest thou'? I've always loved that enigmatic statement, disturbing, penetrating and dismissive of your pride, self will, and vain imaginations. We know why Israel was judged, not so sure why God never gave up on them.

And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Exodus 39:19; Romans 9:15)
​

What's it mean? We keep talking past one another, do you think there is something there we can focus on? We speak often of our choice, isn't it God who decides?

 

[bling]

I don't see much here I would disagree with, of course we are arguing past one another but it's a deep topic. I studied a lot of the creation/evolution thing, you know the word for 'created' in Genesis is used in Isaiah for the creation of Israel? Something strange happened in the first century, something unexpected, God decided to include the Gentiles. Was that the plan all along, because there is every indication that he did. All we really have is a promise, you believe the gospel and receive the Holy Spirit and you are saved. God never gave up on Israel, no matter how many times the children of Israel went astray. God judges the nations, we all have a lot to answer for, but always God gives us a choice and it's the righteousness of God in Christ or perdition, there is no third choice.

While I navigate all the 'ologies' and 'isms', I'm continually reminded of how much I don't know. I know this, the one who makes the promise is faithful, and those he loves he corrects. Sure salvation is free but it will cost you plenty, you can't earn it but then again once received there comes a responsibility. Job couldn't figure out what he did wrong but it wasn't what he did wrong that made him so miserable, it was because God was bragging on him. The core doctrine I keep coming back to is justification by grace through faith, grace calls us, grace saves us, grace equips us for service.

I run into this all the time, of course there is a choice. I know Calvinists and I haven't seen them deny this, but it's a secondary cause. You can choose Christ all day long and it's meaningless until God chooses you. We really don't know why, we know it goes back to the thoughts and inclinations of the heart but beyond that we are guessing.

The clay saying to the potter, 'what makest thou'? I've always loved that enigmatic statement, disturbing, penetrating and dismissive of your pride, self will, and vain imaginations. We know why Israel was judged, not so sure why God never gave up on them.

And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Exodus 39:19; Romans 9:15)
​

What's it mean? We keep talking past one another, do you think there is something there we can focus on? We speak often of our choice, isn't it God who decides?

It all goes back to man's earthly objective:
If there is this eternal intelligence it would be at the epitome of the best it could be and not in the process of improvement. It would be the ultimate bad or good but not somewhere in-between. Why be bad when He can be good just as easily? The ultimate “good” would be what is called Godly type Love (to be defined later) and is a totally unselfish type Love. Since this God would be able to direct our thinking, why would He have us think of him as being totally bad, when He could make us think bad was good and thus He would be worthy of praise? If God were bad and we praise a “Good God” than we are not praising Him.



The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.



God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).



An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).



This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.



Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

 

[mark kennedy]

It all goes back to man's earthly objective:
If there is this eternal intelligence it would be at the epitome of the best it could be and not in the process of improvement. It would be the ultimate bad or good but not somewhere in-between. Why be bad when He can be good just as easily? The ultimate “good” would be what is called Godly type Love (to be defined later) and is a totally unselfish type Love. Since this God would be able to direct our thinking, why would He have us think of him as being totally bad, when He could make us think bad was good and thus He would be worthy of praise? If God were bad and we praise a “Good God” than we are not praising Him.



The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.



God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).



An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).



This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.



Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

Indeed, God's love is a huge debt as is his grace. But the real issue to such a 'huge topic' I was raising is that God's choice in salvation, God's choice of the elect, is always the key. I'm actually new to the subject of theology, while I do like a good Bible study, I've spent little time on systematic theology. I don't see anything in your post I disagree with, it sounds devotional, which is pretty normal for the average Christian. What I'm trying to bring up, clumsily I must admit, is that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and have compassion upon who he will have compassion. We have one advantage with the New Testament witness, God has mercy on the merciful. At conversion, when the sinner is basically crawling on their belly through guilt, it is God's sovereign will that saves, the sinner is helpless to do more then receive God's grace. This is profoundly important as doctrine organizes into systematic theology because with regards to being born again and being indwelled by the Holy Spirit, God alone does that. It's in every discussion of the gospel in the New Testament, your sin has paralyzed you and the choice you make is to finally surrender to the fact you cannot help yourself.

Something about God's predestination is beyond our understanding, but we can experience it. We can't really know everything God was thinking when he created us but as is often the maxim of faith, it's a relationship, not a religion. Every soul that comes into the world knows there is a God because God has revealed it to them. In all the years I've debated atheists and agnostics I have never had one ask me what God is like, they already know. One thing we do know for sure, is that we as sinners suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness. Salvation isn't an act of your will, but God doesn't save you against your will. It's a choice, God made before the foundation of the world, that all who would be saved would be the righteousness of God in Christ to the glory of the Father. There was never a plan b.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[bling]

Indeed, God's love is a huge debt as is his grace. But the real issue to such a 'huge topic' I was raising is that God's choice in salvation, God's choice of the elect, is always the key. I'm actually new to the subject of theology, while I do like a good Bible study, I've spent little time on systematic theology. I don't see anything in your post I disagree with, it sounds devotional, which is pretty normal for the average Christian. What I'm trying to bring up, clumsily I must admit, is that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and have compassion upon who he will have compassion. We have one advantage with the New Testament witness, God has mercy on the merciful. At conversion, when the sinner is basically crawling on their belly through guilt, it is God's sovereign will that saves, the sinner is helpless to do more then receive God's grace. This is profoundly important as doctrine organizes into systematic theology because with regards to being born again and being indwelled by the Holy Spirit, God alone does that. It's in every discussion of the gospel in the New Testament, your sin has paralyzed you and the choice you make is to finally surrender to the fact you cannot help yourself.

Something about God's predestination is beyond our understanding, but we can experience it. We can't really know everything God was thinking when he created us but as is often the maxim of faith, it's a relationship, not a religion. Every soul that comes into the world knows there is a God because God has revealed it to them. In all the years I've debated atheists and agnostics I have never had one ask me what God is like, they already know. One thing we do know for sure, is that we as sinners suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness. Salvation isn't an act of your will, but God doesn't save you against your will. It's a choice, God made before the foundation of the world, that all who would be saved would be the righteousness of God in Christ to the glory of the Father. There was never a plan b.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I agree for the most part, but would add: "all sinners who willingly accept God Charity will be saved."

 

[mark kennedy]

I agree for the most part, but would add: "all sinners who willingly accept God Charity will be saved."

I don't know what prepares the heart of the sinner for the grace of God, but I keep coming back to this:

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. (Acts 10:43-45)
​

This is before Paul took the message to the Gentiles, this was before he was even called Paul. It took Paul years to figure out what had happened to him on the road to Damascus, but when he came back he would not relent on the doctrine of grace. I have never denied that there is a choice but doesn't God get some credit here? He will be praised for the glorious working of his grace in the resurrection, are we going to make a point of our choice now? The painful choice is God's choice is what decides everything in the end, our choice is to accept or reject it. It's always been God will have compassion on whom he will have compassion and mercy on whom he will have mercy, we do well to emphasis that point.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[bling]

I don't know what prepares the heart of the sinner for the grace of God, but I keep coming back to this:

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. (Acts 10:43-45)
​

This is before Paul took the message to the Gentiles, this was before he was even called Paul. It took Paul years to figure out what had happened to him on the road to Damascus, but when he came back he would not relent on the doctrine of grace. I have never denied that there is a choice but doesn't God get some credit here? He will be praised for the glorious working of his grace in the resurrection, are we going to make a point of our choice now? The painful choice is God's choice is what decides everything in the end, our choice is to accept or reject it. It's always been God will have compassion on whom he will have compassion and mercy on whom he will have mercy, we do well to emphasis that point.

Grace and peace,
Mark

If you were handed a check from me for a Million Dollars, how much credit do you deserve for cashing the check and "making yourself" a millionaire and how much credit would I deserve from you for making you a millionaire?
God chose to save you, so how much credit do you deserve for accepting His salvation?

 

[mark kennedy]

If you were handed a check from me for a Million Dollars, how much credit do you deserve for cashing the check and "making yourself" a millionaire and how much credit would I deserve from you for making you a millionaire?
God chose to save you, so how much credit do you deserve for accepting His salvation?

Zero, we are agreed. What I do with it now is a big question. The capitol issued in the kingdom of heaven is righteousness, I could get into the semantics but trust me, atonement and dispensation are essentially, financial terms. Now I can spend it but bear in mind, righteousness can only be spent one way.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[zoidar]

Wrong.

Show me the "repentance" of the disciples prior to Jesus choosing them?

The twelve disciples were chosen for a specific purpose. They were not "mainstream" Christians.

 

[zoidar]

The Matthew 18 version. What is it about? Losing sheep and not finding them? A tale of how Jesus can’t find all those the Father has given Him?

The story is about the WILL of the Father that no sheep shall perish, and about what JOY there is of finding lost sheep.

 

[redleghunter]

The story is about the WILL of the Father that no sheep shall perish, and about what JOY there is of finding lost sheep.

Yes.

 

[redleghunter]

Zero, we are agreed. What I do with it now is a big question. The capitol issued in the kingdom of heaven is righteousness, I could get into the semantics but truth me, atonement and dispensation are essentially, financial terms. Now I can spend it but bear in mind, righteousness can only be spent one way.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Are you speaking of double imputation?

Since Paul uses legal and financial terms of debt a modern example might be:

Jesus pays off our debt we could never be able to. Then when the slate is clean our credit rating is still a wreck so Jesus gives us His credit rating.

 

[DeaconDean]

The twelve disciples were chosen for a specific purpose. They were not "mainstream" Christians.

Let me say this one time and one time only.

Using your own words, you said, and I quote:

The Father gives Jesus whosoever repents.

Yes, they were for a very specific purpose. BUT, according to your own words, they had to have repented before the Father gave them to Him.

Which is entirely wrong.

Given the circumstances, the night Peter denied Jesus, that was not him alone.

"Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled." -Mt. 26:56 (KJV)

"And they all forsook him, and fled." -Mk. 14:50 (KJV)

While I see the 12 given to Jesus for a specific purpose, your statement is false.

Sorry.

But, what do I know. I'm just the "Village idiot"!

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[mark kennedy]

Are you speaking of double imputation?

Since Paul uses legal and financial terms of debt a modern example might be:

Jesus pays off our debt we could never be able to. Then when the slate is clean our credit rating is still a wreck so Jesus gives us His credit rating.

I think I'm talking triple imputation, at least linguistically. Adam's sin is imputed to us, our sin is imputed to Christ, God's righteousness is imputed to us by grace through faith. If want to get right down to it, In Rom 6:11 where it says 'consider yourselves dead to sin' the word consider is the same word translated imputed. So quadrupole imputation.

 

[zoidar]

But, what do I know. I'm just the "Village idiot"!

God bless you friend!

 

[redleghunter]

I think I'm talking triple imputation, at least linguistically. Adam's sin is imputed to us, our sin is imputed to Christ, God's righteousness is imputed to us by grace through faith. If want to get right down to it, In Rom 6:11 where it says 'consider yourselves dead to sin' the word consider is the same word translated imputed. So quadrupole imputation.

Very interesting.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, they were for a very specific purpose. BUT, according to your own words, they had to have repented before the Father gave them to Him.

Which is entirely wrong.

Given the circumstances, the night Peter denied Jesus, that was not him alone.

"Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled." -Mt. 26:56 (KJV)

"And they all forsook him, and fled." -Mk. 14:50 (KJV)

Great point Deacon! Jesus said the following to the apostles (minus the son of perdition who already left to betray Christ to fulfill the Scriptures):

John 15: NASB

12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14“You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another.​

Jesus confirms their security with Him and in Him. And only hours later they all abandon Him and Peter denies Him three times. What Amazing Grace and Love our Savior has knowing our weaknesses and restoring us.

 

[mark kennedy]

Very interesting.

I meant to get to your point about it being a financial word, like so many in the New Testament. It's the idea of something being carried on the books, you owe a debt and I take on that debt. Jesus paid it, and you will get no substantive argument to the contrary. It's elaborated on by theologians in their writings and often in sermons, when Jesus said 'it is finished', it meant, 'paid in full', the semantics of that are priceless. Here is the catch though and I see no real way around it. We owe a debt for grace. God is patient and will wait even if we don't want to use the grace he gave us, I don't see how that's possible but it's conceivable, at least theoretically, thus the Lordship controversy. I just think imputation is a highly underrated concept with regards to the New Testament and double imputation might even be an understatement.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Doer not just hearer]

Whether that's true or not, it's still true that "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16) and "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9).

Preach it! Yep I sign up to this!

 

[His student]

Preach it! Yep I sign up to this!

Me too. I'll 3rd the notion.

Whatever we choose to do with the gospel and do with the gospel is our own choice and is in no way negated by the fact that we were predestined by God to make that choice.

Predestination and free will are both biblical doctrines and are completely compatible.