predestination

[Ben johnson]

The sin of Adam which plunged the whole human race into sin just made men spiritually sick, but still quite able to choose God on their own, by themselves, at any time they choose. Jesus died for everybody, but most reject His death, so His death wasn't as effective as it could be...

Responsible Grace says "the Cross is effective for ALL WHO BELIEVE.

Predestined-Election says "the Cross is EFFECTIVE for NO ONE. For if elected, then it was election that effected our salvation; the Cross was merely demonstrative (or fulfilled) what God had ALREADT CHOSEN...

Ben, This is the logical result of your theology, taken to it's extremes. You are , in effect, advocating this sort of muddled, man-centered, do-it-yourself theology.

Did you see "1984"? "History is not what happened, it is what is REMEMBERED. Those wishing to overthrow the democratic republic of America rewrite history in our educational textbooks --- Washington is portrayed as a womanizing jerk who died of syphilis. But it is a lie --- and history is NOT what is remembered, history is WHAT HAPPENED.

Identically, theology is not subject to whim or fancy or logic or reasoning; the Scriipture cares not one bit what you think of it, or what I think of it; theology is simply exegeting what was written.

You understand none of those doctrines correctly, or you would never say the ridiculous things you say, twisting scriptures, and denying the clear teaching of the Word.

Twisting Scriptures? Last page, Woody said "Jesus Paul and the Apostles believed in OSAS"; I posted verse after verse quoting Jesus, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude --- refuting OSAS. I did not twist or paraphrase or rewrite --- merely quoted them. Did any PE respond? No --- because no one could. I say with caution and utmost respect, not desiring to anger any of you --- yet it seems that the TWISTS occur in the OSAS views...

When you're willing to truly look at these doctrines, without prejudice

I'm sorry, NBF; I'm afraid I cannot look at these "without prejudice"; for it is Scripture, not my own pride or logic or reasoning, that gives rise to my prejudice. For me to CONSIDER "limited atonement" or "irresistible grace" or "predestined election", I would need to lay aside the Scriptures that I cherish. That I cannot do.

I'm not going to waste my time quoting scriptures to you when all you do is try to overwhelm by bombarding with scriptures back, taking them out of context, twisting them, and re-wording them to try an establish your bad doctrine by sheer numbers of scriptures, rather than rightly dividing the Word. We have all seen you paraphrase scriptures, paraphrase what other people have said, and you have a nasty habit of not attributing your quotes of others to the person you are quoting. I think you do that to make it hard to follow who said what, because its a diversion that you believe works in your favor.
What we're looking for here is some honesty, Ben. You try to come off as though you know it all, and it is clear both logically and graphically, that you don't.

The majority of the time I do remember to type "quote=".

As to, "I'm not going to waste my tijme" --- I should not say this, for it is sure to anger you and others; please understand the sincerity, the love and respect with which I say --- this appears to be "posturing in the face of irrefutibility of Responsible Grace". Forgive me if that does anger you.

<sigh>Ben, Ben, Ben....one scripture does not "trump" another.

And yet, TRUMPING is exactly what was pursued by several PE's just a couple pages back, with Acts13:48. I took the time and trouble to conference with a college professor of Greek --- and he said, "That verse does not go either way." This it is NOT a "trump" for PE.

But many of the verses I have shown you DO go "only one way" --- it is for this reason that none of you (aside frojm Mounts), have responded.

Wisdom and faith come from studying the scriptures, but that is not what Eph 2:8-9 are talking about. Words on a page are a means of communication, but it is the Holy Spirit that quickens the words to the heart. Wisdom comes from God. Faith comes from God. Salvation comes from God. Go back and read what I said, Ben. I said that God gives the Faith, but the man is still the one who exercises it. You are saying that the faith is something that the man produces by himself. That's not possible. Saving Faith is a gift from God. Period. Eph 2:8-9 categorically and completely shows that it is.

NAS footnotes, "THAT SALVATION" --- not "that faith".
The professor concurred --- "I would say, THAT FACT."

BY FAITH is a prespositional phrase --- and does not elevate to a second subject. THROUGH GRACE is also a prepositional phrase --- and ALSO is not a second or third or fourth subject.

Yes, man exercises faith. But where does it come from? If it comes from the Word,

Exegesis please, not eisegesis; it does not say "comes from the word", it says "comes from HEARING the word". Hearing convicts, conviction gives rise to faith.

Identically in 2Tim3, reading the word gives wisdom, which convicts and causes faith. Nowhere is "salvic-faith" instilled by God.

Any way you slice it, Faith comes from God. It originates with Him, and it is exercised by man in Him. It is given by God to man, to enable man to believe savingly in Christ. Man cannot produce it by himself.

But you cannot support that by Scripture. And all of the verses that speak of "falling from faith" and "falling from steadfastness", you take as "hyperbole/hypothetical/unreal" BECAUSE of your "extra-Biblical-precept". (This is what I mean by "PE twists the Scriptures".) You believe that Jesus berates them for being faithless, all the while knowing that God has MADE them faithless (or if you insist, that God has not made them faithful). But Jesus' rebukes are far more consistent with the idea that "you REFUSE to believe".

None of my "Calvinist" brothers are answering my question, because none can; you cannot say "begun in the Spirit" and "running well" were never saved. You cannot say "fallen-from-grace, severed-from-Christ" are STILL saved. You cannot say "the Galatians weren't REAL PEOPLE." I am told to wait for an answer, while many of you go to other message boards and send emails and communications seeking an answer. There is onlyu one answer, NBF; they were saved, then became unsaved.

The "predestined" cannot become unsaved. The "unpredestined" cannot be saved, ever.

We are not predestined to salvation. It's the only coindept that Scripture supports...

 

[rnmomof7]

Actually, the same would apply to yourself, only in an opposite sense; perhaps we should agree that the scripture idea is mutual. Perhaps God gave Pharoah the capacity to harden his heart, and Pharoah did indeed do so.

Actually the ability to harden your heart against God was a birthday gift from Adam

How could this be? Only if Pharoah suffered from cowardice. What Pharoah would have done if he was not afraid is what God allowed him to do.

What makes you think He understood the situation? Reprobates will go to hell bragging that they will be with all their friends. They are spiritually blind and deaf. They think Hell is a joke or that they will get out of it someway

 

[CCWoody]

Exodus 9:34 "But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened HIS OWN heart."

Who hardened Pharaoh's heart --- GOD, or PHARAOH HIMSELF???
It says what it says; Jesus asserted that LEAVING was POSSIBLE --- for Judas DID...

Ben, it is clear from reading the scriptures that the LORD Himself takes the credit for hardening Pharaoh's heart. Here is merely one example:

But I will harden Pharaohs heart, and multiplie my miracles and my wonders in the lande of Egypt. And Pharaoh shall not hearken vnto you, that I may lay mine hand vpon Egypt, and bring out myne armies, euen my people, the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt, by great iudgements.
(Exodus 7:3-4 GB)

​

Now, Ben, you are clearly faced with a few unsavory choices on your part:

1. The LORD is outright lying.
2. The LORD really is the first cause of Pharaoh hardening his own heart.

The synthesis of these aparent incompatible verses is absurdly easy. I invite the other posters and lurkers to note Ben's response.

The Kings heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the riuers of waters: he turneth it whithersoeuer it pleaseth him.
(Proverbs 21:1 GB)
​

 

[frumanchu]

You mean there are others who have the SAME UNDERSTANDING??? Hmmm...

Arminians and Pelagians often think alike. That's not something to be proud of. Perhaps that example clarifies...

I'm not motivated to do that; it was days ago, if not weeks; on a dial-up it would take me hours; one of you know that you said it, it is easiest for him to find it.

Well, it wasn't me, so don't bother bringing it to me. I'm not interested at this point in what another Calvinist on this board says. You're not debating them right now, you're debating me (at least as far as this line goes). I'm not bringing stuff Received or Romanbear says into our discussion. Worry about what I say.

I do read them; RNMom said that Heb10:29 stated "blood by which JESUS was sanctified" --- the Greek professor affirmed my understanding that it was the FORMER BELIEVER who was sanctified. He also affirmed my take on "epignosis" (10:26), they WERE saved but "continue sinning willfully" and become unsaved.

Like I said, worry about what I say, not RnMomof7. Deal with MY words regarding Heb 10.

From 178: He speaks of the insufficiency of animal sacrifices (vv1-4), the fulfilling of God's will in Christ's sacrifice (vv5-10), and how Christ's death perfects the sanctified (vv11-18). The author then pastorally sets forth to encourage them in their confession (vv19-25) and show them the greater value of the new covenant over the old by juxtaposing (in a hypothetical manner - "do you suppose") failure to keep the old covenant of works with failing to keep the new covenant of grace and faith (vv26-31). He then from vv32 to the end of the chapter by reminding them of their past perseverance, that confidence in the confession is important and carries with it reward, and that they are "not of those who draw back to &#65279;perdition, but of those who &#65279;believe to the saving of the soul."

So I still maintain your assertion that the "whole chapter" talks of falling from salvation is not accurate, nor do I accept that the actual future reality of a saved believer losing said salvation was in view.

Regardless of the passage, if it REFUTES "PE", one of four "tacks" must be pursued:
1. They weren't SAVED in the FIRST place
2. They didn't really FALL.
3. Hyperbole, not a real incident; fatherly advice to "keep us straight" (as if we could NOT,,,)
4. Dismiss the whole letter through some "device", dispensationism or written to ISRAEL and not MODERN CHRISTANS, etc.

I disagree with your "tacks" as they are listed because it can be "not a real incident" without being hyperbole. I've given you numerous examples of hypotheticals in the past which, though they speak of an occurance which will never happen, are effective in illustrating a point. You seem to be maintaining that, with all the use of parables and other forms of instruction or illustration, neither Jesus nor the authors of the Scriptures can or do use hypotheticals as such a tool.

I also disagree with the narrow manner in which you define the fourth. We cannot ignore the immediate audience of the Scriptures as they were written, and in fact often times it is only through the understanding of the original audience of particular sections that one can appreciate the thought or principle being conveyed.

I replied to you, that they WERE saved. This is a reall warning showing that they who DID fall and scorn Jesus, are in trouble. All of Hebrews says that; ch2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 12 especially.

Hypothetical. Explained for you twice now.

If God IMPOSES REGENERATION on men, how many of those regenerated then have saving faith? 100%, right? And how many of those UNREGENERATED, ever have saving faith? 0%, right? If the instilling of REGENERATED HEARTS is what UNAVOIDABLY gives rise to SAVING FAITH, then how is the saving faith not JUST as imposed as the REGENERATION?

Because the faith is not coerced. The regenerate man, being spiritually quickened and having life breathed into him...seeing at once his own sinfulness and the grace presented to him by the gospel...will by no means reject such a gift. In the absence of his rebellious, inate desire to suppress the truth and having been loosed from the bonds of his slavery to sin, he will respond positively (quite of his own free volition) to the call to faith and repentance.

To illustrate the error in your argument:

If God creates men, how many of those men then become sinners? 100%, right? And how many of them would be sinners without being created? 0%, right? If the creation of men is what UNAVOIDABLY gives rise to SINFULNESS, then how is the sinning not JUST as imposed as the CREATION?

Besides, you (meaning "you Predestined-Electionists) cannot deny that the ROCKY, BELIEVED (Lk8:13). Which leaves you in a QUANDRY; you cannot say "they weren't REALLY saved", because Jesus said "they RECEIVED it with JOY and BELIEVED". Nothing in Jesus' words HINTS that theirs was a FALSE belief, or an UNSAVED belief. But then by temptation/persecution/affliction they FELL AWAY, didn't they? I would think this would be a pretty major road-block to PE...

I've said it previously and will say it again. You are pushing this parable beyond its intended purpose.

From 126: I have checked with several commentaries, by both Reformed commentators (Gill, Henry, Sproul) and decidedly non-Reformed (Coffman, MacDonald, Clarke) commentators, and there is agreement among all of them. They all see the lack of endurance through temptation to be an indication of a less-than-genuine faith. (1 John 2:19).
As with Acts 13:48, you are seeking to draw something out of or inject something into the text that is simply not there.

Do you think Acts 13:48 PROVES predestination?

At the very least, Acts 13:48 leaves you with a need to explain the nature and basis of the appointment which PRECEDED the faith of the Gentile believers. I have a simple, Scriptural answer in the doctrine of sovereign election. What is yours?

Then read the plain English of the OTHER sentence: "No evidence Luke meant ABSOLUTE DECREE of salvation".

Robertson makes no attempt to expound upon doctrinal issues. He is concerned with the language used. He has made it abundantly clear that the appointment PRECEDED and WAS NOT THE RESULT OF their belief. Robertson makes no attempt at conjecture on the nature of the appointment, but he is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR on the point that the appointment PRECEDED the belief.

And while you're "diagramming Robertson's sentence", then recognize this:
TETAGMENOI = REVEALED-AS-SUBJECTS-OF-GOD'S-GRACE
And WHAT was it that REVEALED THEM AS SUBJECTS of His grace? The STAND THEY TOOK...

And your point is....? If anything this supports my position. What you wish this said was that the stand they took MADE them the subjects of God's grace. But that's not what it says. It says it REVEALED them as the subjects of His grace.

 

[rnmomof7]

Responsible Grace says "the Cross is effective for ALL WHO BELIEVE.

Predestined-Election says "the Cross is EFFECTIVE for NO ONE. For if elected, then it was election that effected our salvation; the Cross was merely demonstrative (or fulfilled) what God had ALREADT CHOSEN....

Ben why do you keep repeating things that are not true and slander Calvinists?
God ordained method of salvation the propitiation of Christ no one is saved unless they repent and believe.


If we want to speak of the effectiveness of the cross connected to doctrine we would have to say only the calvinists believe they were saved by the cross..
Non Calvinists do not believe that anyone was saved at the cross..it was only a potential salvation effective only if you do the "right things" .

Being in the right place at the right time to hear the gospel (luck),a good sermon , a few verses of Just as I am ", an altar call ant then being smart enough to "choose Christ"

By that theology no one was saved at the cross..God is just waiting for the final count to come in.

I believe when Christ died MY face was in front of Him when He paid the price for my sin. He knew me and He born my sins . I was saved by the cross.
I was unable to hear the gospel without the grace of God , I had not one thing to do with my salvation ....Jesus is the author and the finisher of my faith . And that is true of all Christians..calvinist and non Calvinists alike

 

[rnmomof7]

I do read them; RNMom said that Heb10:29 stated "blood by which JESUS was sanctified" --- the Greek professor affirmed my understanding that it was the FORMER BELIEVER who was sanctified. He also affirmed my take on "epignosis" (10:26), they WERE saved but "continue sinning willfully" and become unsaved.

Please send me to that post..

 

[Sunbeam]

Reprobates will go to hell bragging that they will be with all their friends. They are spiritually blind and deaf. They think Hell is a joke or that they will get out of it someway

That is so scary. I remember back in high school how kids would say that alot and laugh. It's so sad.

 

[CCWoody]

Foreknowledge is only a chronologically greater stance than how we perceive knowledge, and we know that knowledge does not force actuality, but is dependent on actuality.

When you speak that "knowledge does not force actuality," you would be correct IF you are referring to human knowledge. The problem here is that we are NOT talking about human knowledge, but Divine knowledge. This is the common mistake of the Open Theist heretics and the Middle Knowledge followers. They constantly attempt to redefine God in terms of THEIR understanding. This you are not allowed to do.

It is clear that the Lord does use His foreknowledge, for He has a kind of knowledge which we do not possess, as a planning faculty. For he certainly knows the end result of every single one of His own creative actions, exactly as the scriptures declare. Thus, the Lords' own foreknowledge of His own actions are certain to force an actuality of His own choosing.

Now, it is so easy to demonstrate this:

If the LORD were to say that the moon is made of cheese He would not be lying for the moment He spoke the words the moon would certainly be made of cheese.
​

I might be tempted to actually bring a scripture to also clearly demonstrate this point, but the last time I brought this scripture up to you, you then called the Lord Jesus a factual prophetic liar. Therefore, I will simply renew my objection and state that I will continue to have no discussion with you over the matter in this part of the forum.

BTW, I do wonder what Christian Forum's official position is with those who fall into the Open Theist heresy and the Middle Knowledge position. Clearly your beliefs are out of line with ALL confession orthodoxy. I seem to recall that you were not allowed to post in this part of the forum.

 

[Chappie]

Ben why do you keep repeating things that are not true and slander Calvinists?
God ordained method of salvation the propitiation of Christ no one is saved unless they repent and believe.

If we want to speak of the effectiveness of the cross connected to doctrine we would have to say only the calvinists believe they were saved by the cross..
Non Calvinists do not believe that anyone was saved at the cross..it was only a potential salvation effective only if you do the "right things" .

Being in the right place at the right time to hear the gospel (luck),a good sermon , a few verses of Just as I am ", an altar call ant then being smart enough to "choose Christ".

In all sincerity, might I ask, "What could be luckier than being chosen before one was ever born"?

 

[Sunbeam]

There is much historical evidence documenting Calvins dictatorship. His scripture police walking the streets, men banished and beaten for disagreeing with his teachings. Men put in prison, burned at the stake. (Servetus being the best known) His hatred of Jews is well documented.

Yes, I remember reading some of this. He did kill at least one person (Servetus) because they disagreed with him. He has to account for those things he did. It can't be excused as "under grace".

 

[rnmomof7]

That is so scary. I remember back in high school how kids would say that alot and laugh. It's so sad.

It scares me too Sun..I sat at a table with a woman that is a regular church goer telling me about her having her fortune told.
I asked if she understood that the info was not from God. She said she did not care as it gave her 'comfort"
Then the comment .."what difference does it make every one I know will be in hell with me"

I changed the subject then..it broke my heart.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Predestined-Election says "the Cross is EFFECTIVE for NO ONE. For if elected, then it was election that effected our salvation; the Cross was merely demonstrative (or fulfilled) what God had ALREADT CHOSEN...
.

proverbs 15:2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools pooreth out foolishness.

eph 1:4 Father chose us in Christ

Christ did [the cross] what was needed to be done so that could happen.....

 

[Chappie]

[/font]

When you speak that "knowledge does not force actuality," you would be correct IF you are referring to human knowledge. The problem here is that we are NOT talking about human knowledge, but Divine knowledge. This is the common mistake of the Open Theist heretics and the Middle Knowledge followers. They constantly attempt to redefine God in terms of THEIR understanding. This you are not allowed to do.

It is clear that the Lord does use His foreknowledge, for He has a kind of knowledge which we do not possess, as a planning faculty. For he certainly knows the end result of every single one of His own creative actions, exactly as the scriptures declare. Thus, the Lords' own foreknowledge of His own actions are certain to force an actuality of His own choosing.



Now, it is so easy to demonstrate this:

If the LORD were to say that the moon is made of cheese He would not be lying for the moment He spoke the words the moon would certainly be made of cheese.


​

I might be tempted to actually bring a scripture to also clearly demonstrate this point, but the last time I brought this scripture up to you, you then called the Lord Jesus a factual prophetic liar. Therefore, I will simply renew my objection and state that I will continue to have no discussion with you over the matter in this part of the forum.

That would mean that Creation was not actually completed in six days. God does not violate his own word, the moon is not created of Green cheese. And creation is over...

BTW, I do wonder what Christian Forum's official position is with those who fall into the Open Theist heresy and the Middle Knowledge position. Clearly your beliefs are out of line with ALL confession orthodoxy. I seem to recall that you were not allowed to post in this part of the forum.

I wonder what their official position is also, but I doubt that it would make much of a difference anyway. I do not believe that they are here to impose their views on anyone, but to facillitate discussion without WW3 erupting.

If I believed that Reformed Theology was heresy, should it be banned also?

 

[Sunbeam]

It scares me too Sun..I sat at a table with a woman that is a regular church goer telling me about her having her fortune told.
I asked if she understood that the info was not from God. She said she did not care as it gave her 'comfort"
Then the comment .."what difference does it make every one I know will be in hell with me"

I changed the subject then..it broke my heart.

That is so sad! That is so tragic! How can hell be such a joke? I get near crying when I hear people say things like that sometimes. What can you say? I've burned myself a little a few times in this life a little and I wouldn't want to be in actual lake of fire. The other day the potholder that I used to take something off the burner with had these little strings that caught fire and started to burn my hands before I realized it and every time I have a bad experience with a little fire it reminds me of the very real lake of fire. If the Lord didn't give us a deep peace, then we'd never have any emotional stability when we think about when others say things like that.

 

[CCWoody]

Responsible Grace says "the Cross is effective for ALL WHO BELIEVE.

Predestined-Election says "the Cross is EFFECTIVE for NO ONE. For if elected, then it was election that effected our salvation; the Cross was merely demonstrative (or fulfilled) what God had ALREADT CHOSEN...

Another Straw Dummy. Ben, you really need to actually learn what we Calvinists believe and teach before you presume to have any competency to speak against Calvinism. Perhaps you ought to subtitle your book

"Yet another Straw Dummy argument against Calvinism!"

 

[rnmomof7]

In all sincerity, might I ask, "What could be luckier than being chosen before one was ever born"?

It was not luck it was grace.

The good luck of men in the hearing of the gospel is all in the hands of men .

 

[Sunbeam]

It scares me too Sun..I sat at a table with a woman that is a regular church goer telling me about her having her fortune told.

And I missed this, that she was a regular church goer! Do you know what kind of church she went to?

 

[CCWoody]

Yes, I remember reading some of this. He did kill at least one person (Servetus) because they disagreed with him. He has to account for those things he did. It can't be excused as "under grace".

You should know that I am reporting this post. It is quite obvious that the anti-Reformation crowd wishes to drag this thread down into yet another "Bash Calvinism with outright lies and distortions of historical truth."

 

[Mongoose]

Hi, Mongoose! Welcome to the boards!!!

Sayyyy --- do you know Rikki-Tikki-Tavvi???

What do you not think we are free to do?

Yep. Rikki Tikki Tavi is the Shiznit.

And to answer your question:

On Earth, we are bound by physical law and the desires of our bodies.

In Heaven, we serve God.

In Hell? Let's just not get into that.

 

[rnmomof7]

That is so sad! That is so tragic! How can hell be such a joke? I get near crying when I hear people say things like that sometimes. What can you say? I've burned myself a little a few times in this life a little and I wouldn't want to be in actual lake of fire. The other day the potholder that I used to take something off the burner with had these little strings that caught fire and started to burn my hands before I realized it and every time I have a bad experience with a little fire it reminds me of the very real lake of fire. If the Lord didn't give us a deep peace, then we'd never have any emotional stability when we think about when others say things like that.

I believe that the first thing we realize when we are born again is the depth of our sin and the reality of hell.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom .

There was a sermon written many years ago by a man named Jonathan Edwards. It is a very harsh look at Hell that makes alot of people angry when they read it .
But it sparked the great awaking.The first step is always realizing that we are sinful and that God is Holy .