predestination

[CCWoody]

How is it that "Jesus Paul and the Apostles" all were "predesinted-electionists"?

Well, when you finally learn that none of them have been saying what you think they say, you will begin to see things the right way.

You need to quit following Shank into the errors he made.

 

[rnmomof7]

Yes they had a choice. Did Pharaoh have a choice? Did GOD harden Pharaoh's heart, or did Pharaoh harden his OWN HEART? (Ex10:1, 9:34)

Exd 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.



Exd 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I [am] the LORD. And they did so.


The Pharaoh had the hardened heart of all Reprobate. But even reprobates act in their own best interest..so God caused Pharaoh to be even more hardened..or God lied?

Did JUDAS have a choice? According to Jesus, he DID (Jn6:70)

Yes ., all men have a choice..but the unsaved will always chose according to their will (or best interest) God knew that when faced with a set of circumstances that would feed his greed for money and power that he would seek to feed it.

**
*
Jhn 6:70**
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

**
*
Jhn 6:71**
He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

That scripture does not prove what you want it to prove.

It proves that the betray of Judas was predestined.


Jhn 6:64**
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him



Jhn 13:27**Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Who was it that placed satan into the heart of Satan?

Rev 17:17**
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Nothing happens out side the will of God.

 

[CCWoody]

Still, running from one heresy to another is not the answer.

Your insinuation that Calvinism is a heresy is laughable. It actually dares to presume that the gates of hell have prevailed against the church, which would mean that the scriptures are a lie. If you really believed that, I'd suggest that you promptly burn your Bible and renounce all faith since the Lord was unable to keep his promises.

My problem with reformed theology is that, for me at least, it is one of the worst alternatives that one can run to. Still the heresies that you mentioned are prevalent in one form or another in most of the church today, and they will stay there as long as good men, such as yourself, would rather switch than fight.

Now, that is truly rich!!!! Blaming the heresies I mentioned on people "such as [myself]" is nothing short of an outrageous smear. Let me set you straight on a few things:

1. I am still trapped in the Pelagian nightmare which I mentioned and which you agreed were "heresies." So, your flat out accusation that I am some kind of coward who runs rather than fight is beneath me. Were you somebody I knew in my church, I'd immediately bring you before the elders and personally sever contact with you until you made a full apology.
2. As far as my Soteriology, I have not run to the "worst alternative." That statement reveals that you know NOTHING about church history. At one point and time, the entire confessing church was Predestinarian. The simple fact is that when I got tired of being a thoughtless Pelagian/ Arminian carried about by the whim of the pulput and actually began a relationship in earnest, I learned that what I was being taught was nothing less than goat food. I didn't run to the "worst alternative;" I ran home to the historic truths which have always been taught. I ran from the insufferable garbage of today's churchianity.

I say, “A good man such as yourself, because God has shown you these heresies. Perhaps you should have stood and fought rather than run.

You offend me!

I am a reformer in the same Spirit of the great Reformers of history. Thankfully, I live in an age where I don't face execution by the prevalent religious authorities of the day. For, when they stayed and fought, they were martyred.

 

[nobdysfool]

In all of His rebuking, is there ANYTHING that even HINTS they "cannot repent"? The theme that you are not understanding, is their "free will to follow Him, or not". Romans9, the "oft-touted-supposedly-predestinary-chapter), ends with this: "Israel did not arrive at that law. WHY? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over (Jesus)." Do you see the clarity? It does NOT say "because God had not chosen them", it says "because they rejected grace and pursued works."

Paul answers you thusly: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin....Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (Rom 11:1-5)(shortened for brevity)
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: (Rom 9:6)
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: (Rom 9:27)

Paul goes on to show that only the children of Isaac (that is, of faith, or believers) are True Israel. And God ordained that those in Jesus' day should not believe, so the Gentiles could partake of the promise. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Rom 11:25)
That wasn't God's "Plan B", in case the Jews didn't believe, it was His purpose FROM THE BEGINNING! As I said before, the Jews, of all people, should have recognized who he was, and should have believed. It should have been second nature to them, seeing that they had the Law, they had the promises to Abraham, and they had the special favor of God as His Chosen People. Jesus had EVERY RIGHT to blast them for their unbelief.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. (Rom 11:22-23)

You are misinterpreting many things, because you do not understand God's relationship with Israel, and how they provoked Him. Jesus was being kind to them in just rebuking them. He could have called down fire from Heaven and consumed them on the spot for their willful unbelief and sin. If they were truly ignorant, Jesus would have dealt with them differently. The fact of the matter is that THEY KNEW who He was, and yet did not believe. Thus, His rebuke was a kindness to them.

Jesus was willing to DIE; that "whosoever believes, should not perish but have eternal life; for Jesus did not come to judge the world, but so that the WORLD might be SAVED through Him."

This is the theme throughout Scripture, NBF; salvation to all who WILL believe. Solely because of His love for us.

"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. YOU are My friends, IF you do what I command you." Jn15:13-14

God does not turn anyone away who believes, Ben. Not once have I or any other Calvinist said that He does. The real question is, why do they not believe? That's the question you spin away from, because you don't like the answer, which is Total Depravity. Man in his natural state is totally depraved, spiritually dead, unable to please God either in word or deed, an enemy of God, filthy, unrighteous, unholy, a lover of pleasure, selfish, self-centered, and one who runs away from God, and doesn't even like to retain God in his knowledge. This is the creature who you so confidently say can believe savingly, by just taking thought, by an act of his own will, and respond positively to a gospel he cannot even hear with spiritual understanding, because he is spiritually dead. And by believing, can regenerate his own heart so that God can save him. Uh-huh....and pigs can fly, too.....

RESPONSIBILITY? How can an ELECT, do anything BUT "walk in salvation"? You said yourself, "a regenerated heart cannot be unregenerated, and gives rise invariably (unavoidably) to belief/perseverance". Predestined-election is a paradigm that presents God as TWO-FACED; sarcastic and "smart-alecky" even. First God enables only a FEW to believe, and they cannot BUT believe; then Jesus spends time rebuking the UNBELIEVERS who are unavoidably followiing their UNELECTED HEARTS; He spends much time also admonishing the ELECT towards righteousness, as if they had a CHOICE in whether to be righteous or not. Do I HATE "Predestination"? I cannot abide anything that conflicts Scripture, NBF; it is not so much hatred I feel towards error, but love I have for the truth. Rather than DENYING God's ability to "keep us", I affirm it --- but equally understand that it works THROUGH our faith, BY our belief. We are "kept by the power of God for salvation, THROUGH FAITH". I have shown you that "salvic-faith" is NOT "instilled by God". You yourself recognize that Eph2:8 does NOT say "salvic-faith-is-from-God". Nowhere does Scripture say that.

You have and are still demonstrating that you do not understand what predestination really is, at all. You are putting up a straw man and knocking him down, over and over. You don't understand Predestination. No, you don't. You have not gotten ONE THING right about it. NOT ONE THING!!! It's a waste of time to argue with you about it, because YOU WILL NOT ALLOW ANYONE TO ENLIGHTEN YOU! Why? Because you instinctively know that your entire house-of-cards theology will collapse if you come to a correct understanding of Predestination and Election. You have too much invested to allow that to happen. That's sad, Ben, really, really sad.

It would be nice if the "wrangling" did have an end --- I agree. Predestined-Election asserts that "no TRUE saved can BECOME unsaved". PE's will not deal with the Scriptures that speak of "saved-becoming-unbelievers" --- because they cannot. The end of the wrangling will happen when these passages are confronted --- and recognized that they cannot be filtered, interpreted, explained, changed.

Sorry, Ben, but it is you who deny the Sovereignty of God and put all the responsibility for salvation on man, for that is what you do when you deny Predestination. You do not understand what you're saying. And, you don't see how your whole "saved-becoming-unbelievers" does not square with your idea that Jesus loves everybody, and died for the whole world, every last man woman and child. You hold a self-contradictory theology. On the one hand, you say that Jesus died for everybody, and on the other, you say that those who believe can not only enter under their own power, but God cannot keep them. There's not a whole lot to encourage trust in God in that!

Until then, these discussions ARE useful; for there are many "LURKERS", who read these posts. I hope and pray that each of them reads WITH Bible in hand; looking up the verses for themselves.

Oh, the discussions are useful, especially for the lurkers, but I hope they are also useful for you, to bring you to a better understanding of the Truth. You are resisting all the way, but I pray God will open the eyes of your understanding, so that you can see the richness of the Truth. You are like the miner who would rather wander around above ground, looking for gold, than go down into the earth and do the work necessary to wrest the gold from the rock. There's a lot more Gold underground than there is on top of the ground, Ben. You're not going to get it until you grab your pick and shovel, put on your miner's cap, and start digging.

 

[Chappie]

Your insinuation that Calvinism is a heresy is laughable. It actually dares to presume that the gates of hell have prevailed against the church, which would mean that the scriptures are a lie. If you really believed that, I'd suggest that you promptly burn your Bible and renounce all faith since the Lord was unable to keep his promises.


Now, that is truly rich!!!! Blaming the heresies I mentioned on people "such as [myself]" is nothing short of an outrageous smear. Let me set you straight on a few things:

1. I am still trapped in the Pelagian nightmare which I mentioned and which you agreed were "heresies." So, your flat out accusation that I am some kind of coward who runs rather than fight is beneath me. Were you somebody I knew in my church, I'd immediately bring you before the elders and personally sever contact with you until you made a full apology.
2. As far as my Soteriology, I have not run to the "worst alternative." That statement reveals that you know NOTHING about church history. At one point and time, the entire confessing church was Predestinarian. The simple fact is that when I got tired of being a thoughtless Pelagian/ Arminian carried about by the whim of the pulput and actually began a relationship in earnest, I learned that what I was being taught was nothing less than goat food. I didn't run to the "worst alternative;" I ran home to the historic truths which have always been taught. I ran from the insufferable garbage of today's churchianity.

You offend me!

I am a reformer in the same Spirit of the great Reformers of history. Thankfully, I live in an age where I don't face execution by the prevalent religious authorities of the day. For, when they stayed and fought, they were martyred.

I did not intend to offend you Mr. Woody, my real intention was not to accuse you as a coward, for that I apologize. My intention was to suggest that no matter where we go, there is work to be done. You essentially appeared to me as one that could make a difference.

Until you know for sure that these great reformes are gracing the halls of heaven, i would not be too eager attatch my salvation to theirs...

Sorry about the misunderstanding, i'll try harder next time and be more careful with my words...

You mentioned marters, perhaps you are unaware of the number of men beaten, banished, and murdered that the roots of Calvinism might be planted and given time to grow....

 

[CCWoody]

You mentioned marters, perhaps you are unaware of the number of men beaten, banished, and murdered that the roots of Calvinism might be planted and given time to grow....

Apology accepted.

But, for delcaring that you will choose your words more carefully, you do seem to be directly stating that were Calvinism to once again be the prevalent doctrine of the Protestant churches we Calvinists would have men beaten, banished, and murdered. Why not just call me a progenitor of the KKK?

The simple facts of history, fortunately paint a different story. It was we Calvinists who were beaten, banished, and murdered by the droves, with about 80,000 of us being slaughtered by Roman steel in less than 2 weeks. It was the gospel with the nickname of Calvinism that brought familes to hidden assemblies, which had a nasty habit of being discovered. The result was a church burned to the ground with the men, wome, & children still inside.

And, you might actually take a peek at the Costitution of this Republic. 46 of the 50 something founding Fathers were Calvinists. We came to this land and established a government of religious freedom and tolerance, not this evil Theocracy you seem to believe.

I'm not certain of your motivations, but I'm fairly certain that with every single post you addressed to me you are violating forum rules.

 

[Mongoose]

I don't think we are predestined, but I don't think we are free either.

 

[nobdysfool]

You yourself recognize that Eph2:8 does NOT say "salvic-faith-is-from-God". Nowhere does Scripture say that.

I have never said that I agree with that. In fact, the more I look at the verse and the one following it, the more convinced I am that Paul is saying exactly that faith is instilled by God for salvation.

For by Grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. (Eph 2:8)

Faith is the conduit through which Grace operates in salvation. Salvation is by Grace, which operates through Faith. Paul says that it is not of yourselves. We know already that Grace is of God, and not of ourselves, so what does that leave that is not of ourselves? FAITH. And this is reinforced by verse 9 which says

Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:9)

The "it" referred to in verse 8 is Faith.

Many places in scripture, faith and works are contrasted. It is a recurring theme in Paul's writings. Paul's intent is clear here. He states the obvious, that Grace operates through Faith, and then states that Faith and Grace are not of ourselves, but the gift of God. He reinforces it by reminding us that salvation is not by works, lest any man should boast. Paul is driving the point home that faith is of God, works are of man. In so doing, he reveals that the Grace and Faith which save us are both gifts of God, and not of ourselves.

God's gift of Faith is not exercised FOR the man by God, but exercised BY the man once God has regenerated his heart and given him that Gift of saving Faith. The man does the believing, but God helps him by giving him the saving faith he needs to be saved.

So yes, Ben, scripture DOES say that "salvific faith IS from God". It says so in Eph 2:8-9.

 

[Ben johnson]

Originally Posted by: Ben johnson
Yes they had a choice. Did Pharaoh have a choice? Did GOD harden Pharaoh's heart, or did Pharaoh harden his OWN HEART? (Ex10:1, 9:34)

Exd 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exd 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I [am] the LORD. And they did so.

Exodus 9:34 "But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened HIS OWN heart."

Who hardened Pharaoh's heart --- GOD, or PHARAOH HIMSELF???

That scripture does not prove what you want it to prove.

It proves that the betray of Judas was predestined.

It says what it says; Jesus asserted that LEAVING was POSSIBLE --- for Judas DID...

 

[Ben johnson]

scripture DOES say that "salvific faith IS from God". It says so in Eph 2:8-9.

"...sacred writings which are able to give you WISDOM, that leads to FAITH and SALVATION THROUGH JESUS." 2Tim3:15 Anything there about "FAITH-FROM-GOD"? No; faith from WISDOM, from reading SCRIPTURE. Period.

"With the heart man BELIEVES (has salvic-faith), resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Faith comes from HEARING, and hearing from the word of GOd. Whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved; how then shall they call in whom they have NOT BELIEVED? And how shall they BELIEVE in Him whom they have not heard? How shall they hear without a preacher?" Rm10 All of Scripture stands diametrically opposed to what you just asserted. Here too --- it says "salvic-faith comes from the HEART" --- not from GOD. If God INSTILLED faith, then why did Paul just say, "if there is no PREACHER, then they won't BELIEVE?"]/color] Which is it then --- God INSTILLS salvic faith, or it requires a PREACHER to TELL them,, so they might become CONVICTED and BELIEVE? Exegesis, NBF, not eisegesis.

 

[Ben johnson]

I don't think we are predestined, but I don't think we are free either.

Hi, Mongoose! Welcome to the boards!!!

Sayyyy --- do you know Rikki-Tikki-Tavvi???

What do you not think we are free to do?

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben Johnson ignores my post..

Ben ANSWERED your post, in #214; will you answer HIS, or ignore it?

Join the club...He turns every reply into a rant against Predestination and Election, and misses the other points. He really has a hard time with God being Absolute Sovereign, and with Total Depravity. He keeps ducking the Depravity question. He's playing to the larger audience.

Ben has refuted every facet of "Predestined-Election", INCLUDING "Total Depravity", including "limited atonement", including "irresistible grace". Ben has cited verses that CANNOT accommodate "osas" --- but the others "duck" and accuse BEN of "ducking".

If one is so against "ducking", then please answer my quesiton about Gal3:1-3 & 5:1-7, 2Pet2:20-22, James 1:14-16 & 5:19-20. Are they:

1. NEVER saved in the FIRST PLACE?
2. Didn't really FALL from salvation?
3. It's just a STORY but wasn't REAL --- hypothetical for CORRECTIOn but can't HAPPEN?
4. We can somehow IGNORE entire letters of the Bible.
5. ???????

Answer, or duck; your call...

 

[Chappie]

Apology accepted.

But, for delcaring that you will choose your words more carefully, you do seem to be directly stating that were Calvinism to once again be the prevalent doctrine of the Protestant churches we Calvinists would have men beaten, banished, and murdered. Why not just call me a progenitor of the KKK?

I am not at present ready to make that accusation. I have not really given it any thought. Anyway, I seriously doubt that either you or I will have to worry about the dominance of Calvinism ever again. Too many people have bibles. Too many people can read.... If your reformed theology is of God, it will flourish, if not it will "continue" to deminish.

The simple facts of history, fortunately paint a different story. It was we Calvinists who were beaten, banished, and murdered by the droves, with about 80,000 of us being slaughtered by Roman steel in less than 2 weeks. It was the gospel with the nickname of Calvinism that brought familes to hidden assemblies, which had a nasty habit of being discovered. The result was a church burned to the ground with the men, wome, & children still inside.

Showing me the hole in my bucket, does not repair the one in yours. There is much historical evidence documenting Calvins dictatorship. His scripture police walking the streets, men banished and beaten for disagreeing with his teachings. Men put in prison, burned at the stake. (Servetus being the best known) His hatred of Jews is well documented.

St. Augustine (c. 354-430 A.D.), Confessions, 12.14

How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you!

John Calvin

A Response To Questions and Objections of a Certain Jew

Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.

Excerpt from "Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio," by John Calvin; The Jew in Christian Theology, Gerhard Falk, McFarland and Company, Inc., Jefferson, NC and London, 1931.

Where might I look for historical evidence of this slaughter?

And, you might actually take a peek at the Costitution of this Republic. 46 of the 50 something founding Fathers were Calvinists. We came to this land and established a government of religious freedom and tolerance, not this evil Theocracy you seem to believe.

Thank you for the advice, but I think that I will continue to make my Boast in those that God used to give us his word. I love my country, fought for it, still when it comes to my salvation, I hang my hat with no man save Jusus Christ. The fact that men have bestowed honour upon other men does not impress me. If i cannot find their names validated by Christ, you can have them.

I'm not certain of your motivations, but I'm fairly certain that with every single post you addressed to me you are violating forum rules.

I just went and read the rules again, I might have came close, still we can leave that up to the moderators if you don't mind. Still, I am working on positioning myself a little bit further within the guidlines.

 

[MizDoulos]

Reminder to all: If the discussion of predestination is to remain objective, let's get back on topic rather than continue the bickering and personal conflict. Use your e-mail or private message option to conduct communication and resolve personal conflicts. Do not air them publicly. Besides, the discussion has gone on for pages, and it looks like it may have run its course.

Consider this an unofficial warning to all who participate. Any further disharmony will result in warnings being issued and/or the closing of the thread.

Thank you.

[noflame][notroll]

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

You have and are still demonstrating that you do not understand what predestination really is, at all. You are putting up a straw man and knocking him down, over and over. You don't understand Predestination. No, you don't. You have not gotten ONE THING right about it. NOT ONE THING!!! It's a waste of time to argue with you about it, because YOU WILL NOT ALLOW ANYONE TO ENLIGHTEN YOU! Why? Because you instinctively know that your entire house-of-cards theology will collapse if you come to a correct understanding of Predestination and Election. You have too much invested to allow that to happen. That's sad, Ben, really, really sad.

unfortunately Word


Needs to understand

#1 depravity.. given the reason several times
#2 God's character...OT really good place to start
#3 two different wills of man Gal 5:16-26
#4 ect...

 

[nobdysfool]

Ben has refuted every facet of "Predestined-Election", INCLUDING "Total Depravity", including "limited atonement", including "irresistible grace". Ben has cited verses that CANNOT accommodate "osas" --- but the others "duck" and accuse BEN of "ducking".

Oh, you have, eh? Let's see, then...if Predestination and Election are not true, then things just happen, and God is constantly having to adjust His Plan to account for the pesky free will of man. The sin of Adam which plunged the whole human race into sin just made men spiritually sick, but still quite able to choose God on their own, by themselves, at any time they choose. Jesus died for everybody, but most reject His death, so His death wasn't as effective as it could be, but that's man's fault, and God is very hurt by that. God can't do anything more than "offer" Grace to man, and man is free to tell God to "buzz off" any time he wants, and God can't really do anything about it. And God cannot really preserve His Saints (those who have so graciously decided that they will let God into their lives), but they must preserve themselves, because it's all up to them whether they endure to the end and make it to Heaven, because God dare not violate their free will. It's all up to man, God has provided what SHOULD be enough, but it's up to man to make it happen. Does that about cover it, Ben?

This also assumes that God is so in need of man's love that He will do anything to obtain it, and wrings His hands in constant worry over how He can get man to love Him and accept Him, because He loves all men so much, and is just so heartsick that he cannot do more, but He wants man to love Him freely, so He dare not interfere with their free will, or He could never be sure that man really loves Him, or if they are only loving Him because he made them love Him.

Ben, This is the logical result of your theology, taken to it's extremes. You are , in effect, advocating this sort of muddled, man-centered, do-it-yourself theology. The sad thing is, variations of what I have just detailed are preached from pulpits every Sunday Morning across America. Most don't take it quite as far as I did, but they sometimes come close. This is a travesty, Ben. You need to reassess what you believe, because you are dead wrong about Predestination, Unconditional Election, Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, Irresistable Grace, and the Perserverance of the Saints. You understand none of those doctrines correctly, or you would never say the ridiculous things you say, twisting scriptures, and denying the clear teaching of the Word. I'll say it again, Ben, your words and attitude show CLEARLY that you have NO correct understanding of ANY of the doctrines I have detailed above. Absolutely none. Zip. Zero. Nada.

When you're willing to truly look at these doctrines, without prejudice, then we can start going over the scriptures again. I'm not going to waste my time quoting scriptures to you when all you do is try to overwhelm by bombarding with scriptures back, taking them out of context, twisting them, and re-wording them to try an establish your bad doctrine by sheer numbers of scriptures, rather than rightly dividing the Word. We have all seen you paraphrase scriptures, paraphrase what other people have said, and you have a nasty habit of not attributing your quotes of others to the person you are quoting. I think you do that to make it hard to follow who said what, because its a diversion that you believe works in your favor. The rest of us have no trouble doing it, and as a Senior Moderator, shouldn't you be setting an example? If you look, virutally every quote I cite is tagged with who said it. If I can do it, you can, too.

What we're looking for here is some honesty, Ben. You try to come off as though you know it all, and it is clear both logically and graphically, that you don't.

 

[nobdysfool]

Exodus 9:34 "But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened HIS OWN heart."

Who hardened Pharaoh's heart --- GOD, or PHARAOH HIMSELF???

What are you going to do with the scripture that says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart? You seem to be setting that aside. One could infer from this that in any case where an action is ascribed to both man and God, it's man's actions that you want to take into account, and ignore God's.

It says what it says; Jesus asserted that LEAVING was POSSIBLE --- for Judas DID...

And scripture also says that Jesus knew from the beginning who it was that should betray Him. John makes the point in his epistle saying this is how you know who is of us and who is not: If they leave, they were not of the faith, because if they were, they would have stayed. Their leaving is proof that they were not of the faith. It seems you don't think it's possible for people to "fake it". There are a lot of "spiritual fakes" in churches all across America.

 

[nobdysfool]

"...sacred writings which are able to give you WISDOM, that leads to FAITH and SALVATION THROUGH JESUS." 2Tim3:15 Anything there about "FAITH-FROM-GOD"? No; faith from WISDOM, from reading SCRIPTURE. Period.

<sigh>Ben, Ben, Ben....one scripture does not "trump" another. Wisdom and faith come from studying the scriptures, but that is not what Eph 2:8-9 are talking about. Words on a page are a means of communication, but it is the Holy Spirit that quickens the words to the heart. Wisdom comes from God. Faith comes from God. Salvation comes from God. Go back and read what I said, Ben. I said that God gives the Faith, but the man is still the one who exercises it. You are saying that the faith is something that the man produces by himself. That's not possible. Saving Faith is a gift from God. Period. Eph 2:8-9 categorically and completely shows that it is.

"With the heart man BELIEVES (has salvic-faith), resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Faith comes from HEARING, and hearing from the word of GOd. Whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved; how then shall they call in whom they have NOT BELIEVED? And how shall they BELIEVE in Him whom they have not heard? How shall they hear without a preacher?" Rm10

All of Scripture stands diametrically opposed to what you just asserted. Here too --- it says "salvic-faith comes from the HEART" --- not from GOD. If God INSTILLED faith, then why did Paul just say, "if there is no PREACHER, then they won't BELIEVE? Which is it then --- God INSTILLS salvic faith, or it requires a PREACHER to TELL them,, so they might become CONVICTED and BELIEVE? Exegesis, NBF, not eisegesis.

Yes, man exercises faith. But where does it come from? If it comes from the Word, it comes from God. If it comes by way of the Holy Spirit, it comes from God. If it is a Gift of the Spirit, it comes from God. Any way you slice it, Faith comes from God. It originates with Him, and it is exercised by man in Him. It is given by God to man, to enable man to believe savingly in Christ. Man cannot produce it by himself. You cannot show me any scripture that says man can produce saving faith all by himself. God instills Faith by the preaching of the Word. That is the method God uses.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17)

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12)

Why do you struggle with this so? You should rejoice that God graciously makes up the lack in man, so that man can be saved!

 

[Received]

His foreknowledge is a planning faculty.

Foreknowledge is only a chronologically greater stance than how we perceive knowledge, and we know that knowledge does not force actuality, but is dependent on actuality.

Here, nice guy that I am, I'll get you started in your studies with a little Augustine:

But Augustine blows this scripture out of context; Jesus was not referring to salvation in this emphasis, but rather -- perhaps interestingly -- their use for the field by which He planned for them -- that is, discipleship, and eventually apostleship.

 

[Received]

What are you going to do with the scripture that says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart? You seem to be setting that aside. One could infer from this that in any case where an action is ascribed to both man and God, it's man's actions that you want to take into account, and ignore God's.

Actually, the same would apply to yourself, only in an opposite sense; perhaps we should agree that the scripture idea is mutual. Perhaps God gave Pharoah the capacity to harden his heart, and Pharoah did indeed do so. How could this be? Only if Pharoah suffered from cowardice. What Pharoah would have done if he was not afraid is what God allowed him to do.