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= salvation for the self-righteous only.Dave,
If God wrote the names of the saved in the book of life before the foundation of the world and he made his decision based on those who accepted his grace in Christ and who chose His offer of eternal life, then those who have the free will to choose - given to them by God - are born again / saved.
The nature of human free will or of human free choice is, according to Norman Geisler, ‘the power of contrary choice’ (Geisler 2003:444). I agree with this position as I see it through both OT and NT.
This is a basic and simple definition that I accept as being consistent with the biblical revelation: ‘Free will or free choice is the power of contrary choice’ and it is not taken away from human beings by God’s sovereignty, even though they are sinners.
This was the power of free choice in the beginning of the universe when Adam & Even were given the ability of free will, the power of contrary choice, when God said they could choose to eat or not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil:Gen 2:15-17 ; 3:2-7 NLT)
That free will, the ability to choose between alternatives, was not taken away after sin entered the world. Joshua 24:14-24 (NLT) confirms this.
We know salvation is from God and God alone (Eph 2:8-9 NIV), but this salvation for individuals happens when they believe. We know this from passages such as Acts 16:31 where the Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas, 'What must I do to be saved?' 'They replied, “[You] Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household" (NLT).
'Believe' is an imperative verb; it's a command for the jailer to choose to believe. He and his household could have chosen not to believe.
Paul and Silas did not say,
'There is nothing for you to do because God has predestined you to salvation, unconditionally, and irresistible grace has been extended to you so you cannot reject God's offer. You are guaranteed salvation because you were placed in the elect before the foundation of the world - by God. Those not in the elect are predestined to damnation. You are among the "lucky" ones whom God showed favouritism towards and you have been chosen for eternal life'.
To be 'dead in sin', as the Philippian jailer and household were (Eph 2:1 NIV), did not prevent them from using their free will in regard to salvation - they could choose between the alternatives of eternal life or eternal damnation.
See my articles dealing with this topic:
This is not Pelagianism or semi-Pelagianism. It is biblical free will as we cannot save ourselves. Salvation is provided by God, but not on a basis of being forced into the Kingdom without a choice - through unconditional election, limited atonement and irresistible grace.
Oz
Works consulted:
Geisler, N 2003. Systematic theology: God, creation, vol 2. Minneapolis, Minnesota: BethanyHouse.
That is exactly what Ephesians 1 says, and you don't like it. This is the mystery of His will, that He chose us in Him before the creation of the world. And HE WORKS ALL THINGS according to the council of His will.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
All I see you doing is playing semantics games, equivocating terms like "sovereignty" with your version of "all controlling". You should not assume that just because someone quotes from an article that they agree in every little detail as though they were the words of Scripture. Yes, I see what you're attempting, and other than robot, and puppet tropes, I think you're running on empty. Oh and I think Brian could have worded the particular section you quoted, a little better, explained in more detail what he meant, but I understand what is meant by God is in control, it doesn't mean He's a cosmic puppet master, it means NOTHING is out of His ability to control, it means EVERYTHING is under His power, His authority to govern according to His will. None of which means that God is actively CAUSING anything which He chooses NOT to. Did you miss the part earlier where I describe the will of God as "free" and "sovereign"? Nah you're just picking and choosing what to ignore for the semantic game.
Of course, it's still grace. No one saves themselves and no one is claiming that. It's one of the calvinists biggest strawmen. Being given a gift and accepting that gift does not somehow make one worthy of it. That's all we do, accept it by faith. There is no self righteousness or work involved.But, if salvation is conditional, it is not by grace. You must turn the gospel into law for the self-righteous to keep in order to save themselves.
Accepting the gift = act of righteousness powered by self = self-righteousness.Of course, it's still grace. No one saves themselves and no one is claiming that. It's one of the calvinists biggest strawmen. Being given a gift and accepting that gift does not somehow make one worthy of it. That's all we do, accept it by faith. There is no self righteousness or work involved.
Where is that written? Jesus says the work we have to do to be his is to believe. Apparently, he didn't think believing was somehow self righteous.Accepting the gift = act of righteousness powered by self = self-righteousness.
If believing is a condition for salvation, and you must choose to believe, that is an act of self-righteousness that you trust in to save you. Real faith believes without choosing to do so.Where is that written? Jesus says the work we have to do to be his is to believe. Apparently, he didn't think believing was somehow self righteous.
ICONO,
I do not know you, but from your profile with the avatar, you identify as a Calvinist. I'd like to respond to a few of your comments in this post.
Can we obey or disobey the Holy Spirit?
How is it possible to resist the Holy Spirit and so reject Him?
The words of Stephen, the first Christian martyr, were spoken to a hostile audience. The message of the risen Christ was being rejected. "You stiff-necked people," he says, "with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" (Acts 7:51) Their response was like the response their ancestors gave whenever a prophet came among them; their rejection of the message was tantamount to resisting the Holy Spirit. It was as if the Holy Spirit were personally speaking to them and they were rejecting him. The Jews resisted what Stephen said: "they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him... they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him." (Acts 7:54-57) The Holy Spirit was speaking through Stephen and, when his message was rejected, the Holy Spirit was being resisted.
We get an insight from Jesus into how the Jews in his day resisted the Spirit. Jesus worked miracles "by the Spirit of God" yet they attributed his power to demons. (Matthew 12:25-31) They were resisting the Holy Spirit. Jesus said to them, "You refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:40) Jesus didn't say that they couldn't come to him, but that they refused to come to him. They were resisting the Holy Spirit. We see further resistance when Paul was on trial before Felix. Paul "spoke about faith in Christ Jesus [and] discoursed on righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come." We read that "Felix was afraid and said, 'That's enough for now! You may leave. When I find it convenient, I will send for you.'" (Acts 24:25-26) The Holy Spirit was at work in Felix's heart, but he was resisting the Spirit. He dismissed Paul; he didn't want to hear any more. The same resistance is seen in many of the Jews who came to Paul while he was under house arrest in Rome. "From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe." (Acts 28:23-24) Those who "would not believe" chose to reject the truth and so resisted the Holy Spirit (BibleAnswers.ie 2018).
If a person's name is not written in the Book of Life that person will be cast by God into the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:15).
How does a human being get to Hades and so make themselves eligible for the Lake of Fire? It is because of the free will choice given to all human beings to respond to the offer of salvation or reject it (see #307). God does not force anyone (unconditionally elect) into Hades or Paradise at death.
The Gospel of John teaches the free will options of choice in regard to salvation:
Jesus teaches free will choice to believe or to reject Him.
- 'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects [or disobeys] the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them' (John 3:36 NIV).
- 'You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life' (John 5:39-40 NIV).
Non-Christians are cast into the Lake of Fire as their final destination because they used their God-given choice to reject Jesus and be cast into Hades at death.
The Bible does not tell me so!!! This is what Scripture tells me:
Your teaching on the limited atonement is not accepted by many Calvinists, e.g. The Case for Unlimited Atonement (by Ron Rhodes)
- 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world' (1 John 2:2 ESV).
- 'But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone' (Heb 2:9 ESV).
- 'Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time' (1 Tim 2:6 ESV).
I have addressed this issue in,
- Unlimited atonement by Jesus
- Does the Bible teach limited atonement or unlimited atonement by Christ?
- Did John Calvin believe in limited atonement?
Could you have overlooked 1 Peter 1:1-2 (ESV), 'Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you'.
There most certainly is free will for human beings, articulated in Scripture, throughout OT and NT. It started with Adam & Eve in the garden when they were given the power of choice to eat or not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That free will extends throughout the Bible. See my post above (at #307) for biblical references of such.
A basic and simple definition that I accept as being consistent with the biblical revelation is: ‘Free will or free choice is the power of contrary choice’ and it is not taken away from human beings by God’s sovereignty, even though they are sinners, dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1).
Oz
What does that even mean? We are all presented the choice of whether or not to trust Christ. Throughout scripture God pleads with his people to choose him over idols, to return to him. If this somehow lessons God's glory or exalts man, then God is not too concerned his glory. But of course, it doesn't because this is the way God has chosen for salvation to work.If believing is a condition for salvation, and you must choose to believe, that is an act of self-righteousness that you trust in to save you. Real faith believes without choosing to do so.
You must have a far different definition of "control" than the dictionary does. As a verb it means "determine the behavior or supervise the running of."
Now, the article that you quoted claims God controls everything. No exceptions. And determinism demands that God control everything without exception and you have been promoting determinism. At least Brian is being consistent with his philosophy, while you seem to be trying to hold to some form of capatibalism. Yeah, I've been exposed to that one, and it's inherently illogical to say God is completely controlling and man still makes real choices.
No one is debating whether God has ultimate authority. What we are debating is whether God gave men free will. If God is not directly controlling everything, every thought that ever enters your mind, then you have some form of free will. You need to decide which it is. Because "control" for an all powerful being does not just mean to have authority over or to govern. Governments can not control every thought and every movement of your hand. When you say everything is under his power, that would have to mean God personally controls every movement of your hand on the key board and every sin you commit, to the point that God is the one doing it all and you are just a puppet. Otherwise, you are not completely under his power, but only partially. Maybe you can begin to see why I say you guys constantly contradict yourselves.
Accepting the gift = act of righteousness powered by self = self-righteousness.
If believing is a condition for salvation, and you must choose to believe, that is an act of self-righteousness that you trust in to save you. Real faith believes without choosing to do so.
Charts and graphs don't mean much. I'm somewhere in the vicinity of wesleyan arminian, if that helps. Only in the general sense,though, as I would disagree with Wesley on certain points.THE dictionary huh? If you spend much time with dictionaries, you begin to see differences in definitions, nuances, variations, shades of definition. One reason is, the English language has and is ever changing. Another is words quite often have more than one meaning, and context is quite often the guide for meaning.
Ah ha, "at least Brian is being consistent", nice try. Calvinism as a whole historically for the majority have held to some form of compatibilism, yes I hold to some form of compatibilism. Perhaps you could expound on your philosophy of the will, and here is a helpful chart in determining the view.
View attachment 238563
I have already explained and quoted from different confessions on the subject of free will. For goodness sakes there is only one mention in all of Scripture using the term, and it has a context, a "free will offering", this would be done by a priest, a priest is an anointed man chosen by God, in this context a Priest is of the elect, chosen by God, regenerated and the will set free from the bondage of sin. So the point is, "free will" in the context of the one verse, does not apply or refer to unregenerate mankind.
Here is another chart, one that I worked on but never really completed, but it still conveys thought and meaning behind it.
View attachment 238564
Now where does your view of free will put you in the chart above?
Lol, to have faith in the choices of God requires that you make a choice.Faith in the choices of God, trusting in Him, knowing it is He that grants repentance and works to do His will, no boasting but in Christ.
Lol, to have faith in the choices of God requires that you make a choice.
We are not presented with a choice. The gospel is not law. It is good news for whoever believe it. If you must decide to believe, it's because you don't believe.What does that even mean? We are all presented the choice of whether or not to trust Christ. Throughout scripture God pleads with his people to choose him over idols, to return to him. If this somehow lessons God's glory or exalts man, then God is not too concerned his glory. But of course, it doesn't because this is the way God has chosen for salvation to work.
If salvation depends on an act of the will, you believe a false gospel. The gospel is not an offer made to the self-righteous. It is an announcement of salvation for all who believe.Of course, it's still grace. No one saves themselves and no one is claiming that. It's one of the calvinists biggest strawmen. Being given a gift and accepting that gift does not somehow make one worthy of it. That's all we do, accept it by faith. There is no self righteousness or work involved.
Amazing sovereign grace opens ones eyes to just that. Humbling it is and more.
Charts and graphs don't mean much. I'm somewhere in the vicinity of wesleyan arminian, if that helps. Only in the general sense,though, as I would disagree with Wesley on certain points. Well, you quoted Pink, who I believe was a hard determinist, and this Brian guy seems to be in the same group, whether he admits it or not. The Hyper determinists are the only ones who are honest about where the idea of no free will leads. Most of the rest of you do this dance between what you call free will, which it really isn't, since God is actually determining what your strongest desire will be, and total bondage. And you wonder why you confuse people.
So if you don't believe as a baby, you can never believe? How does one come to believe in any thing, but by choice? That would mean some are just born saved and God just hits the activation button? Paul should have told the jailer if God wants you to be saved, he will do it, I can't help you. Jesus was way out of line to say your faith has made you whole, or to say the work of God is to believe on the one who he sent. Why does God keep pleading with people to believe and follow, if he just sprinkles Faith Dust on some and not on another's?If salvation depends on an act of the will, you believe a false gospel. The gospel is not an offer made to the self-righteous. It is an announcement of salvation for all who believe.
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