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No, under Calvinism people are born elect to eternal life. That is their fate. And as such they are saved from birth. When people are born elect is there the possibility that they will go to hell? No. As such they are saved from birth.In Calvinism, they are not born saved, it is just they are elected to be saved. faith is still a requirement, as is being born of God.
Believe whatever you wish to about Calvinism.No, under Calvinism people are born elect to eternal life. That is their fate. And as such they are saved from birth. When people are born elect is there the possibility that they will go to hell? No. As such they are saved from birth.
Under Calvinism is faith a requirement for them to be elect to eternal life? No. Their election to eternal life occurs prior to them being born. Faith, regeneration, sanctification, glorification, these are things that occur later in the life of the elect, but are not preconditions under Calvinism to be elect to eternal life.
Wrong about that. God plays a major (but not an exclusive) role as to who is actually saved, and God foreknows who will believe. Consequently you bear me false witness on both these points as to what you claim I believe. I based my believes upon the Bible, and not upon Martin Luther or any other post-Biblical theologian.Believe whatever you wish to about Calvinism.
You understanding is God plays a minor role in who is actually saved, or does not have a clue who will believe.
Wrong about that. God plays a major (but not an exclusive) role as to who is actually saved, and God foreknows who will believe. Consequently you bear me false witness on both these points as to what you claim I believe. I based my believes upon the Bible, and not upon Martin Luther or any other post-Biblical theologian.
When you say major but not exclusive role, your not believing what Christ said in John 6.
'All that the Father gives ME will come to ME'
'Will come' means what it says, the Father must give you or grant you to believe in Christ or you will not believe in Christ. Will come means they have not yet come to Christ, only after being granted will they come to Christ. And it is not just the idea God makes it possible for them to come since Christ says 'will come to Me'.
Wrong again. The context says, "Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." John 6:45 Learning involves cooperation and thus affirms synergism contrary to Calvinism.When you say major but not exclusive role, your not believing what Christ said in John 6.
'All that the Father gives ME will come to ME'
'Will come' means what it says, the Father must give you or grant you to believe in Christ or you will not believe in Christ. Will come means they have not yet come to Christ, only after being granted will they come to Christ. And it is not just the idea God makes it possible for them to come since Christ says 'will come to Me'.
And in other verses, Jesus says all those the Father has given Me.
How does your philosophy explain that away?
This gets back to when a man is born again.Wrong again. The context says, "Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." John 6:45 Learning involves cooperation and thus affirms synergism contrary to Calvinism.
Wrong again!This gets back to when a man is born again.
Man is born again before being taught by the Holy Spirit, all that are taught come to Christ, since they are of God after being born, they have ears to hear.
And your using your interpretation of a verse to contradict the other, bad, very bad thing to do.
Your deflecting from my prior post, the comments you made and about Jesus talking about learning from God, while Jesus also saying, 'all that the Father gives Me will come to Me.'Wrong again!
A person is born of God AFTER he comes to faith.
John 1:12b "to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—".
When were they given the right to become children of God? Was it before they believed or after? What does it say?
Ga 3:26 "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,"
So how could a person be born of God before believing? A person is born of God through faith - just as John 1:12 indicated.
1John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
Doesn't that sound like it's talking about unbelievers, as the Calvinists would have it?
Wrong again. I answered your take on John 6. You just misconstrued it.Your deflecting from my prior post, the comments you made and about Jesus talking about learning from God, while Jesus also saying, 'all that the Father gives Me will come to Me.'
Why is that? Because you do not have an answer except if you severely twist the scripture.
Wrong again. I answered your take on John 6. You just misconstrued it.
As for "deflecting", you're wrong there to. In your prior post you stated, "Man is born again before being taught by the Holy Spirit" That was your proposition to support you interpretation. I disproved your hypothesis with scripture. You call that "deflecting".
Already explained it to you, but you didn't listen.Actually your the one doing the antagonism, your the one who attacked first, I just responded, you hate calvinism, which is scriptural truth.
And no, you did not in John 6 explain that verse.
Here they are, perhaps you should explain them, how they fit your religious views.
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
Translation ...God says we are elected and graced before the world was....Loren says...we become elected when we believe.....Translation: I don't like your answer, so I'm going to make fun of you.
If you are listening to Leighton Flowers you will remain confused and resisting the truth.Screaming doesn't make you any more right. Kinda reminds me of the calvinist debating Flowers screaming "God causes men to commit adultery!" Ok, then, everything is predestined. Nothing we do matters. Got it. Might as well sit on the couch and eat ho hos for the rest of your life.
Can you demonstrate any of your claims in scripture? You make statements with no support, You do not offer the position as people hold to it...Why? If your theology is correct, God will irresistibly save whoever he wants and damn whoever he wants. Giving them the gospel is irrelevant if this is true.
In Calvinism, they are not born saved, it is just they are elected to be saved. faith is still a requirement, as is being born of God. The scriptures clearly says, all that the Father gives to Christ will come to Christ. Which means those not given, will not come to Christ and be saved.
God is the chooser, not the will of the man. God does not choose everyone or everyone would come to Christ and be saved.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
God does not personally show mercy to everyone to be granted to come to Christ.
People who do not believe in Christ, God has not granted them to come to Christ. I speak in absolute terms here, meaning they could be granted later, but unless God grants them to come to Christ, they will not believe. Jesus is VERY CLEAR, only by severe scripture twisting can these truths be denied.
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
The SPIRIT gives life, not the flesh, God is Spirit, He determines who is given life, not the man. As Romans 9 so says, not the will of the flesh, the man. We are born of God according to the will of God and also that is why a man is born again prior to faith or being born again would be determined by the will of the man, the flesh.
I might be confused, but that response was to a poster who keeps wrongly using the term irresitiable grace, as if men do not resist the gospel before they are saved by God.Where? What attacks? Quote it.
There is no free will period. That is a false idol.No God's law of free will reigns supreme .As demonstrated by Jesus hanging on the cross he had to give up the ghost the last thing separating him from Heaven then he was free to ascend.
No...God is not a mere spectator. He has a plan and purpose and foreknows whom he intends to save out of fallen mankind.The book of life was written before creation. So everyone who is victorious are basically saved since creation. God foresaw who would be victorious and who would not. This doesn’t mean that He chose who is saved and who will burn. He simply foresaw the choices we would make.
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