Predestination

BNR32FAN

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Verse 16 states: "16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."

Verse 5 states: "5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing."


Now the verse which your supposition hinges: verse "6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."

First the word "if" suggests uncertainty, "anyone" suggests a broader audience, and "does not abide" based on the surrounding context suggests those who do not abide, are not in Him, and were not in Him, for if they were, they could do something, they would bear fruit, by divine appointment, because He chose them for works prepared before the foundation of the world.

The problem is you assume an autonomous perseverance where the Scriptures state a theonomous perseverance.

In reply to theonomous perseverance God gives us the ability to overcome temptation but we still must choose whether we will obey or not. Without God yes we will no doubt fall to temptation. If theonomous perseverance were true then God’s elect wouldn’t sin.
 
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In reply to theonomous perseverance God gives us the ability to overcome temptation but we still must choose whether we will obey or not. Without God yes we will no doubt fall to temptation. If theonomous perseverance were true then God’s elect wouldn’t sin.

If autonomous sin could separate us from the thonomous love of Christ Jesus, who would stand, who would be loved of God? Obedience to Christ is a gift from God, it is by grace we obey, by the power of the Spirit of God, autonomously we would choose disobedience in every choice, it is part of our fleshly nature, in the autonomous choices of the flesh, we fall short of the glory of God without cease. There is no other perseverance than theonomous perseverance, He preserves and gives perserverance, it does not come from within out of autonomous choices, if it did, we would choose the forbidden fruit just like Eve.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Loren said;
[This is undeniable proof that a believer can fall from grace.

“The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9
‬]

1]I do not think you know what fallen from grace means when Paul used it in scripture.
2] Everyone Peter speaks of in this verse is going to be saved
 
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Yep no doubt Jesus chose the apostles. He chose Judas to but Judas didn’t abide in Him. Or do you believe Judas chose Jesus?

Yes He chose Judas, but not for the purpose of election or abiding in Him, the Scriptures tell us as much, He knew who would betray Him, when He chose Judas, and He chose him, that the Scriptures concerning him would be fulfilled.
 
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BNR32FAN

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If autonomous sin could separate us from the thonomous love of Christ Jesus, who would stand, who would be loved of God? Obedience to Christ is a gift from God, it is by grace we obey, by the power of the Spirit of God, autonomously we would choose disobedience in every choice, it is part of our fleshly nature, in the autonomous choices of the flesh, we fall short of the glory of God without cease. There is no other perseverance than theonomous perseverance, He preserves and gives perserverance, it does not come from within out of autonomous choices, if it did, we would choose the forbidden fruit just like Eve.

In Christ we have the ability to overcome the sinful nature of our flesh and even still we ALL fail. If theonomous perseverance were true then some people would be able to live without sin. Even the apostles still sinned. How is that possible if thonomous perseverance is true? Was the gift of obedience taken away from then and then later given back again?

Peter lied and denied knowing Jesus. Thomas doubted. Judas was a sinner probably the entire time so I’m not sure if he counts. Lol
 
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Bobber

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See this is a good illustration of the weirdness of your philosophy. Here, we have Stephen explaining to the Jews about how they rebelled against God over and over again and how they were still doing so.

9 “But our ancestors refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

But, to read this through your Calvinist lenses, you have to believe that the only reason they rebelled is because God decreed their rebellion, and in fact, decreed that they were all destined for destruction from birth. So, what is Stephen angry about? He should be glorifying God because the Jews did just what God caused them to do. You should have a celebration when an unsaved relative dies. Because, that person, if you are consistent with your philosophy, was born reprobate and finally went to hell, all for God's glory.

Very good points! And also what's always been asked why should any of these disciples express any exasperation towards these rebellious individuals whatsoever. If one is exasperated that means one is expressing frustration and if you truly believed these individuals couldn't help themselves you'd feel sorry for them. Can one imagine 20 crippled people paralyzed from birth and you get mad at them for not running a mile on a track?

If you added rebuke to words spoken to such ones for not doing so there's only one term and one term only that any sane person on the Earth would render to such individuals and that is being COLDHEARTED. Everyone reading this knows this would be true.

When one brings this over to the spiritual realm though people seem willing to twist their minds all the way backwards to make something seem reasonable which in their heart they know it not. Jesus and God know it's not reasonable too. Stay with God's willing to save all who'll believe and God's not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance...100% of all people on the planet.
 
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In Christ we have the ability to overcome the sinful nature of our flesh and even still we ALL fail. If theonomous perseverance were true then some people would be able to live without sin. Even the apostles still sinned. How is that possible if thonomous perseverance is true? Was the gift of obedience taken away from then and then later given back again?

Peter lied and denied knowing Jesus. Thomas doubted. Judas was a sinner probably the entire time so I’m not sure if he counts. Lol

So the disciples fell away from Christ with every sin? They were cut off of the vine with each sin?

The ability to overcome the sinful nature is not from autonomous choice, it is by theonomous power of the Spirit. We fail because we are not the Spirit of God, if we were the Spirit of God, we would be able to live without sin. If we could live without sin, what could be said about the atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ and the imputation of His righteousness to the believer?

Here is a thought offering, regeneration and sanctification should not be equivocated, they are different in conception. It is a bit confusing and difficult to grasp but I view regeneration as monergistic, and sanctification as synergistic, monergism is strictly theonomy, while synergism allows for either, and the choice between obedience or disobedience, obedience being theonomous, disobedience being autonomous, with a sovereign God able to intervene as He chooses, whenever He chooses.

There are two perspectives at work, one is God's perspective, and the other is man's perspective. And as men, we look on the outside, with no ability to see on the inside, whereas God knows and sees all. At what point do you suppose God disowns those He called His children? At what point does the Bridegroom divorce His wife? As a father myself, my son will always be my son, his status as a son will never change, I will love him whether he obeys or disobeys me, I will hope and pray he learns from discipline to be obedient, but I will love him just the same. It is a flawed comparison, but how much greater is the love and mercy of God, than what a man extends to his own?
 
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Loren T.

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Very good points! And also what's always been asked why should any of these disciples express any exasperation towards these rebellious individuals whatsoever. If one is exasperated that means one is expressing frustration and if you truly believed these individuals couldn't help themselves you'd feel sorry for them. Can one imagine 20 crippled people paralyzed from birth and you get mad at them for not running a mile on a track?

If you added rebuke to words spoken to such ones for not doing so there's only one term and one term only that any sane person on the Earth would render to such individuals and that is being COLDHEARTED. Everyone reading this knows this would be true.

When one brings this over to the spiritual realm though people seem willing to twist their minds all the way backwards to make something seem reasonable which in their heart they know it not. Jesus and God know it's not reasonable too. Stay with God's willing to save all who'll believe and God's not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance...100% of all people on the planet.

When you take this philosophy to it's logical conclusion, it's just mind boggling that people fall for it. But, of course, it's usually cloaked in mystery so the average person has no idea what is really being said.
But, God is not the author of confusion. And he's not the dualistic force that determinism makes him into.
He's the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world and died for all. We don't have to guess about God's will because the veil has been taken away and we are plainly shown what Gods desire is for us.

16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
 
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BNR32FAN

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So the disciples fell away from Christ with every sin? They were cut off of the vine with each sin?

The ability to overcome the sinful nature is not from autonomous choice, it is by theonomous power of the Spirit. We fail because we are not the Spirit of God, if we were the Spirit of God, we would be able to live without sin. If we could live without sin, what could be said about the atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ and the imputation of His righteousness to the believer?

Here is a thought offering, regeneration and sanctification should not be equivocated, they are different in conception. It is a bit confusing and difficult to grasp but I view regeneration as monergistic, and sanctification as synergistic, monergism is strictly theonomy, while synergism allows for either, and the choice between obedience or disobedience, obedience being theonomous, disobedience being autonomous, with a sovereign God able to intervene as He chooses, whenever He chooses.

There are two perspectives at work, one is God's perspective, and the other is man's perspective. And as men, we look on the outside, with no ability to see on the inside, whereas God knows and sees all. At what point do you suppose God disowns those He called His children? At what point does the Bridegroom divorce His wife? As a father myself, my son will always be my son, his status as a son will never change, I will love him whether he obeys or disobeys me, I will hope and pray he learns from discipline to be obedient, but I will love him just the same. It is a flawed comparison, but how much greater is the love and mercy of God, than what a man extends to his own?

No I’m not saying they fell away with every sin but if perseverance is from God given to His elec then how can it be imperfect? The very definition of perseverance suggests a continuance of obedience. If someone fails to be obedient they didn’t persevere. I would sooner believe that it is our own flaws that cause our disobedience rather than an imperfect gift of perseverance from God. I hope I’m not sounding condescending or impolite friend it is not my intention. Calvinism just has too many hoops to jump thru to make it all work. I still see Jesus warning his apostles in John 15:1-8. The last 8 words in verse 4 are definitely directed at them as a warning. 2 Peter 3:9 & 1 Timothy 2:3-4 say that God wants everyone to repent and be saved. How can that be true if God doesn’t elect everyone?
 
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No I’m not saying they fell away with every sin but if perseverance is from God given to His elec then how can it be imperfect? The very definition of perseverance suggests a continuance of obedience. If someone fails to be obedient they didn’t persevere. I would sooner believe that it is our own flaws that cause our disobedience rather than an imperfect gift of perseverance from God. I hope I’m not sounding condescending or impolite friend it is not my intention. Calvinism just has too many hoops to jump thru to make it all work. I still see Jesus warning his apostles in John 15:1-8. The last 8 words in verse 4 are definitely directed at them as a warning. 2 Peter 3:9 & 1 Timothy 2:3-4 say that God wants everyone to repent and be saved. How can that be true if God doesn’t elect everyone?

If perfection came through obedience, then it would come through obedience to the law, and Christ died in vein. The believer in Christ is counted as perfect because of the perfect obedience of Christ, and the blood of His substitutional sacrifice applied by God in regeneration to the believer. The imputation of the righteousness of Christ to the believer in Christ, is how a believer is counted as perfect by God the Father. If it were possible through obedience to the law, then there would have been no need for the prophesied Messiah.

Matthew 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.

I appreciate the certainty of the word "will".
 
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BNR32FAN

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If perfection came through obedience, then it would come through obedience to the law, and Christ died in vein. The believer in Christ is counted as perfect because of the perfect obedience of Christ, and the blood of His substitutional sacrifice applied by God in regeneration to the believer. The imputation of the righteousness of Christ to the believer in Christ, is how a believer is counted as perfect by God the Father. If it were possible through obedience to the law, then there would have been no need for the prophesied Messiah.

Matthew 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.

I appreciate the certainty of the word "will".

I didnt say perfection thru obedience I’m talking about theomous perseverance. Preservereance by definition doesn’t come & go it is constant and continuous. So this Godly gift of obedience seems to come & go in “God’s elect”. Doesn’t it make more sense that the believer chooses to obey sometimes and chooses not to other times. That God has given us the ability to overcome temptation but we often fail because sometimes we choose not to obey?
 
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I didnt say perfection thru obedience I’m talking about theomous perseverance. Preservereance by definition doesn’t come & go it is constant and continuous. So this Godly gift of obedience seems to come & go in “God’s elect”. Doesn’t it make more sense that the believer chooses to obey sometimes and chooses not to other times. That God has given us the ability to overcome temptation but we often fail because sometimes we choose not to obey?

Maybe this will help, Theomous Perseverance, is the perseverance of God with His people. The parable of the Good Shepherd comes to mind. We are covenant breakers, we break promises, but God is a covenant keeper, He does not go back on His promises, and when He chooses to save someone, He does so unconditionally, if He saved people conditionally, none would be saved, because we sometimes choose not to obey.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Very good points! And also what's always been asked why should any of these disciples express any exasperation towards these rebellious individuals whatsoever. If one is exasperated that means one is expressing frustration and if you truly believed these individuals couldn't help themselves you'd feel sorry for them. Can one imagine 20 crippled people paralyzed from birth and you get mad at them for not running a mile on a track?

If you added rebuke to words spoken to such ones for not doing so there's only one term and one term only that any sane person on the Earth would render to such individuals and that is being COLDHEARTED. Everyone reading this knows this would be true.

When one brings this over to the spiritual realm though people seem willing to twist their minds all the way backwards to make something seem reasonable which in their heart they know it not. Jesus and God know it's not reasonable too. Stay with God's willing to save all who'll believe and God's not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance...100% of all people on the planet.
no scripture....to support these falsehoods?
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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BNR32FAN,

[I’m sorry my friend but God’s elect and eternal security are false teachings.]
Sure they are....and yet Paul said;
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

go figure:wave::idea::scratch:
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Loren T.,

[See this is a good illustration of the weirdness of your philosophy. ]

That you refer to scriptural truth as weirdness could be a barometer of your spiritual condition...

[Here, we have Stephen explaining to the Jews about how they rebelled against God over and over again and how they were still doing so.

9 “But our ancestors refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.
]


Yes...most were unsaved...
[But, to read this through your Calvinist lenses, you have to believe that the only reason they rebelled is because God decreed their rebellion, ]

In trying to be cute as you resist truth, once again you demonstrate no understanding of the theology.
You complained that people say this to you but let's look why this happens.

Can you name one thing that has ever happened that God has not decreed would indeed happen?


[and in fact, decreed that they were all destined for destruction from birth. ]
When God said to Adam...in the garden....if he ate the fruit,,,dying, thou shalt surely die..Do you think He was not serious?

[So, what is Stephen angry about? He should be glorifying God because the Jews did just what God caused them to do. ]

So...you blame God for mans sin???:tutu::|:sigh:

[You should have a celebration when an unsaved relative dies. Because, that person, if you are consistent with your philosophy, was born reprobate and finally went to hell, all for God's glory.]

You are on the wrong side of this issue, the saints in heaven praise God for His righteous judgments

Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

:wave::clap::wave:
 
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BNR32FAN

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Maybe this will help, Theomous Perseverance, is the perseverance of God with His people. The parable of the Good Shepherd comes to mind. We are covenant breakers, we break promises, but God is a covenant keeper, He does not go back on His promises, and when He chooses to save someone, He does so unconditionally, if He saved people conditionally, none would be saved, because we sometimes choose not to obey.

Unconditionally? I’m afraid not my friend. Repentance aka being born again is a must along with producing fruit. John 15:1-8 does not sound like unconditional salvation. Unconditional salvation would mean we can do what we want not what God wants. Please take a look at these examples.

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


Galatians 5:19-21


Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.


Matthew 3:10


Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.


Revelation 21:27


Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.


Ephesians 5:3-6


But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.


Matthew 25:31-46

A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 24:45-51


All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.


Revelation 21:7-8


Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. “What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting. So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.


Matthew 18:3-10

Salvation is not unconditional. However God’s Love is unconditional.
 
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Loren T.

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In trying to be cute as you resist truth, once again you demonstrate no understanding of the theology.
You complained that people say this to you but let's look why this happens.

Can you name one thing that has ever happened that God has not decreed would indeed happen?
Sure.
"They have burned incense in it to other gods that neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have ever known. They have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. 5They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal— something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it ever enter My mind."
 
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