Predestination

[psalms 91]

So it's my fault know that you aren't using real words?

It seems you are concerned with my typing rather than the content

 

[variant]

It seems you are concerned with my typing rather than the content

You could always tell me what the word you were trying to type was.

 

[psalms 91]

You can't be free to make a choice that can't happen.

Just because say I know you and I can tell what you will choose between two objects does not negate your choice, you are still free to make one

 

[psalms 91]

You could always tell me what the word you were trying to type was.

our

 

[variant]

Just because say I know you and I can tell what you will choose between two objects does not negate your choice, you are still free to make one

If I am free to make different choices than the one God knows will happen then God is not omniscient.

If God is omniscient then the alternative choice can not actually happen.

 

[Hentenza]

No, ask god and this computer of yours.

Feeling like you have a choice or that you make your own decisions doesn't make that choice real.

In the scenario where God does know what color shirt I am going to ware tomorrow since before I was born then I only imagine that I can freely choose between my shirts.

You are going against logic, Variant. What is necessary is the consequent not the antecedent.

 

[variant]

You are going against logic, Variant. What is necessary is the consequent not the antecedent.

I am not arguing against logic.

If a being such as myself sets a series of events into motion knowing the consequences absolutely before hand, we can not then describe the series of events as anything other than mechanical.

You are arguing that if I could program a set of people with my computer so that they felt like they had choices when in reality I knew everything they would ever do before hand, that they would have free will.

 

[Hentenza]

I am not arguing against logic.

If a being such as myself sets a series of events into motion knowing the consequences absolutely before hand, we can not then describe the series of events as anything other than mechanical.

I disagree. Just because someone knows the outcome does not invalidate the choices made to arrive at the outcome.

 

[variant]

I disagree. Just because someone knows the outcome does not invalidate the choices made to arrive at the outcome.

How would you even be making the choices if they were known before hand by the person who set them in motion?

 

[Hentenza]

How would you even be making the choices if they were known before hand by the person who set them in motion?

Again, you are assuming A <-> B, a reciprocal relationship. That is not the case.

 

[variant]

Again, you are assuming A <-> B, a reciprocal relationship. That is not the case.

Show me why not. The universe you are describing is quite mechanical from God's perspective.

Also I added this later:

You are arguing that if I could program a set of people with my computer so that they felt like they had choices when in reality I knew everything they would ever do before hand, that they would have free will.

 

[Hentenza]

Show me why not.

Lets take the computer analogy for a minute. Did the computer force your hand to choose the blue shirt over the red shirt?

Also I added this later:

You are arguing that if I could program a set of people with my computer so that they felt like they had choices when in reality I knew everything they would ever do before hand, that they would have free will.

Again, you are assuming A <-> B. You are assuming that God programmed the people to do as He wished. That could not be further for the truth.

 

[variant]

Lets take the computer analogy for a minute. Did the computer force your hand to choose the blue shirt over the red shirt?

No but there is something about the universe that did, otherwise it would be impossible to predict every time correctly.

Absolute predictability implies determinism.

Again, you are assuming A <-> B. You are assuming that God programmed the people to do as He wished. That could not be further for the truth.

God didn't create the people he wished? You said yourself that he knew the consequences before he started... So how could he not have?

Omniscient omnipotent Gods can not make mistakes.

 

[Hentenza]

No but there is something about the universe that did, otherwise it would be impossible to predict every time correctly.

Absolute predictability implies determinism.

Prove it logically.

God didn't create the people he wished?

It does not follow. God created mankind because he wished but God also created natural processes to create you.

You said yourself that he knew the consequences before he started... So how could he not have?

Are the consequences the antecedent or the consequent? If what is necessary is the consequent than how can you make this claim?

Omniscient omnipotent Gods can not make mistakes.

Irrelevant. If I know that Boston is going to beat New York in the world series, does that invalidate all of the free will choices that Boston made to win the game?

 

[variant]

Prove it logically.

1. Computer must base predictions on knowns/facts
2. Computer is always correct
... Computer knows everything

3. If the computer knows everything then there is no event it can not predict.
4. If all events are predictable than unpredicted events are disallowed.
5. No disallowed choices are possible.
... The universe is deterministic.

It does not follow. God created mankind because he wished but God also created natural processes to create you.

The end point of which is known. The nature of the process doesn't help if the end point is known, the system is still artificial.

Are the consequences the antecedent or the consequent? If what is necessary is the consequent than how can you make this claim?

I make the claim because God as proposed must know what it is doing before it starts. So, It can't make mistakes.

Irrelevant. If I know that Boston is going to beat New York in the world series, does that invalidate all of the free will choices that Boston made to win the game?

If you know absolutely and you know why and you set up the scenario yourself, yes.

 

[Lopez 15721]

Because he wasn't interfered with. You have to account for a God that knew Donald would do what he did before he ever began to exist.



If all of our desires and choices are known before we exist then we don't put anything into the equation or have any choice in the matter and thus have no morality.

Donald was interfered with though. Mrs. White insured he would go democrat via the implanted device. In that way, Mrs. White is much like God who foreknows as she knows for sure either way he is going to go democrat. Even then, the outcome of each scenario is the same: one cannot do differently than how he did. The means of which one cannot do otherwise is irrelevant, even being they are indeed similar, what is relevant, however, is that one cannot do otherwise.

Our desires are what we put into the equation. Foreknowledge is not not a causal factor that could make one act; it is simply God being consciously aware of the future. It is our desires that God foreknows of, and those desires are our own, not forced by God knowing them.

 

[variant]

Donald was interfered with though. Mrs. White insured he would go democrat via the implanted device. In that way, Mrs. White is much like God who foreknows as she knows for sure either way he is going to go democrat. Even then, the outcome of each scenario is the same: one cannot do differently than how he did. The means of which one cannot do otherwise is irrelevant, even being they are indeed similar, what is relevant, however, is that one cannot do otherwise.

Mrs white only knows because she tampered with him (removed his freedom to choose on this issue).

God would have made Mr White with the foreknowledge that he would be a democrat.

The problem here is that Donald did have a choice (whether to choose democrat himself or have Mrs white choose it for him) in Mrs. whites scenario where as he has no choice In God's. So, they are not the same scenario.

In God's scenario Mr White will be a democrat because at the beginning of the universe God knew he would and God created the universe that way anyway, so what are the moral implications if any, if the choices in the universe all came from God and none from the people involved.

Mr White is a democrat in God's scenario because that is exactly what he was going to be regardless.

Our desires are what we put into the equation. Foreknowledge is not not a causal factor that could make one act; it is simply God being consciously aware of the future. It is our desires that God foreknows of, and those desires are our own, not forced by God knowing them.

If the future is set then the creation of the universe made one single possible deterministic outcome. God can not have absolute foreknowledge of an unset future.

What you are experiencing is the illusion that you make decisions when, in reality you can not do anything differently.

Saying that we make our own decisions in such a scenario is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Hentenza]

1. Computer must base predictions on knowns/facts
2. Computer is always correct
... Computer knows everything

3. If the computer knows everything then there is no event it can not predict.
4. If all events are predictable than unpredicted events are disallowed.
5. No disallowed choices are possible.
... The universe is deterministic.

Are the facts actually known? Is a computer always correct? Does the computer know everything? These two call into question the validity of 3-5 and the conclusion.

I think you are missing the fact that the relationship is not reciprocal. In other words. the computer cannot physically guide your hand to choose the blue shirt even if it knows that you will choose the blue shirt. So whether the computer (or God) is always correct or knows everything is irrelevant and independent of your actions.

The end point of which is known. The nature of the process doesn't help if the end point is known, the system is still artificial.

I disagree.

I make the claim because God as proposed must know what it is doing before it starts. So, It can't make mistakes.

I agree but you do not know, therefore, the choice is still your. In other words, if God knows that you are going to choose the blue shirt, and you choose the blue shirt, then the choice is still yours.

If you know absolutely and you know why and you set up the scenario yourself, yes.

The scenario has not been set but is merely the result of a sum of choices. You mistakenly believe that God (or the computer in our earlier example) "set up" the result of the game. But the fact is that Boston's players and coaches did not know the result of the game and made the choices necessary to win.

This is NOT a reciprocal scenario as you are making it to be. God did not set up the blue shirt so that you could not choose the red one; you just merely chose, out of your own free will, the blue one.

 

[nccountryboy]

Just remember you guys that God loves each one of us more than we could ever know. Just look what he did......He gave His only begotten son that we may live.

 

[variant]

Are the facts actually known? Is a computer always correct? Does the computer know everything? These two call into question the validity of 3-5 and the conclusion.

If the computer can predict absolutely, all of those are proper assumptions which was the scenario we are discussing:

Originally Posted by Hentenza
If a computer could predict your behavior, would your choice be illusionary?

If it absolutely can yes because:

If we live in a deterministic universe choice is illusory.

Absolute prediction logically implies determinism, as you requested...

Please do not change the premises of the discussion mid stream, as it will only make things more problematic.

I think you are missing the fact that the relationship is not reciprocal. In other words. the computer cannot physically guide your hand to choose the blue shirt even if it knows that you will choose the blue shirt. So whether the computer (or God) is always correct or knows everything is irrelevant and independent of your actions.

It doesn't matter what is guiding my hand. Absolute predictability means there is only one outcome and that it is deterministic.

I disagree.

Feel free, it doesn't make any difference that you would use the word natural for a deterministic process instead of artificial.

I agree but you do not know, therefore, the choice is still your. In other words, if God knows that you are going to choose the blue shirt, and you choose the blue shirt, then the choice is still yours.

In this scenario I merely FEEL like the choice is mine.

The scenario has not been set but is merely the result of a sum of choices. You mistakenly believe that God (or the computer in our earlier example) "set up" the result of the game. But the fact is that Boston's players and coaches did not know the result of the game and made the choices necessary to win.

In the God scenario yes that is the conception of an omnipotent creator God which also sees everything in the future clearly, in the computer scenario the universe is simply deterministic.

To make a choice you have to be free to not make a choice and that is the problem with determinism. It means there are no real choices.

This is NOT a reciprocal scenario as you are making it to be. God did not set up the blue shirt so that you could not choose the red one; you just merely chose, out of your own free will, the blue one.

Free will implies freedom which doesn't exist in the scenario, I can not chose the red shirt, it is objectively impossible.

Feeling like I could chose the red shirt isn't enough, it has to be up to me, which is impossible if a being created the universe in which only that decision could have been made.