Predestination

[Hentenza]

An omniscient being would, so I fail to see your point.

The point is that, even if an omniscient being knows what you are going to choose, it does not diminish your free will choice. If an omniscient being know that you are going to choose a blue shirt over the red shirt, does not diminish your free will choosing of the blue shirt. It is still your choice. Just as you know that your child will not choose the poop plate.

 

[variant]

The thing is, that proposition does not logically follow. It must be shown that free will means the ability to do other than how one originally acted. Until then it's an unsupported claim.

No being free means you can choose. That's the idea. If morality is based upon the idea that you did something wrong when you SHOULD have chosen otherwise you must have had the ability.

If you never had the ability to choose something else then morality is meaningless.

 

[nccountryboy]

If you want a true understanding of what predestination is from a reformed point of view read some books by RC Sproul. The first time I read one if his books I was dumbfounded because I did NOT believe in it and I was sorta upset that anyone could believe that way. But in time the more I read the bible the more I saw that it teaches it. Whether or not a person believes its true or not has NO bearing on their salvation.....at least thats my take on it.

 

[Lopez 15721]

No being free means you can choose. That's the idea. If morality is based upon the idea that you did something wrong when you SHOULD have chosen otherwise you must have had the ability.

If you never had the ability to choose something else then morality is meaningless.

Obviously you missed the argument that completely dismantles this thinking.

 

[variant]

The point is that, even if an omniscient being knows what you are going to choose, it does not diminish your free will choice.

Yes it does. The omniscient being is also responcable for the person existing.

Add

A. Omniscient being set the scenario A into motion.

B. Omniscient being knows the end before setting scenario A into motion.

You can't get to:

C. The person in the scenario is morally responcable for the outcome.

If an omniscient being know that you are going to choose a blue shirt over the red shirt, does not diminish your free will choosing of the blue shirt. It is still your choice.

It would have made you with EVERY decision known when it did so, this removes your actual ability to choose anything.

It means that choice is an illusion.

 

[nccountryboy]

I also think we can choose God and that God allows us choices but in the end did we really have a choice? Perhaps we won't know for sure until we are in glory.

 

[Hentenza]

If a computer could predict your behavior, would your choice be illusionary?

 

[variant]

If a computer could predict your behavior, would your choice be illusionary?

If it absolutely can yes because:

If we live in a deterministic universe choice is illusory.

Did the computer have a hand in making me?

 

[Hentenza]

Yes it does. The omniscient being is also responcable for the person existing.

Nope. People exist becaue of purely biological reasons.

Add

A. Omniscient being set the scenario A into motion.

Not really.

B. Omniscient Being knows the end before setting scenario A into motion.

Does that means that your decision is not yours?

You can't get to:

C. The person in the scenario is morally responcable for the outcome.

Morality has nothing to do with choosing between a poop plate and cereal.

It would have made you with EVERY decision known when it did so, this removes your actual ability to choose anything.

Tht would only be true if you knew he future. But you do not.

It means that choice is an illusion.

Nope.

 

[variant]

Nope. People exist becaue of purely biological reasons.

Then you don't believe in an omniscient God or predestination.

Morality has nothing to do with choosing between a poop plate and cereal.

I wasn't talking about your bad analogy.

 

[Hentenza]

If it absolutely can yes because:

If we live in a deterministic universe choice is illusory.

Nope. Deterministic implies a reciprocal action. A<->B.

Did the computer have a hand in making me?

Irrelevant.

 

[Hentenza]

Then you don't believe in an omniscient God or predestination.

I believe in both.

 

[variant]

I believe in both.

Then you have to answer the questions without being so glib.

 

[variant]

Nope. Deterministic implies a reciprocal action. A<->B.

If the computer can predict all my actions then we live in a deterministic universe.

 

[Hentenza]

If the computer can predict all my actions then we live in a deterministic universe.

How so?

 

[variant]

Does that means that your decision is not yours?

Yes. I barely exist in such a scenario and all my choices are illusory.

 

[Hentenza]

Then you have to answer the questions without being so glib.

I'm not being glib.

 

[Hentenza]

Yes. I barely exist in such a scenario and all my choices are illusory.

Prove it.

 

[variant]

How so?

Because everything is known before hand with 100% accuracy, you can tell that the participants aren't really making choices but rather results follow from previous conditions.

 

[Lopez 15721]

Variant,

PAP is not related to free will per the Frankfurt example I posed earlier. Completely destroys your argument.