Predestination

[Going Merry]

It's pretty tough to argue against Biblical Predestination.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (NASB)
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

If they failed to keep the faith after being born again, then they become 'unchosen' after being chosen?

 

[Albion]

If they failed to keep the faith after being born again, then they become 'unchosen' after being chosen?

They weren't born again just because they said they were. The proof is in the pudding with this matter, if you pardon me using such a non-religious expression.

 

[Going Merry]

They weren't born again just because they said they were. The proof is in the pudding with this matter, if you pardon me using such a non-religious expression.

In OT scriptures it shows how someone was doing very well with God. But because they started to say in their heart "i am god" God decided to judge him. God said he had so many good things prepared for him, but instead he was going to destroy him in the worst possible and humiliating way to show how much of a man he was. Was he unchosen? (Ezekiel 28)

 

[Albion]

In OT scriptures it shows how someone was doing very well with God. But because they started to say in their heart "i am god" God decided to judge him. God said he had so many good things prepared for him, but instead he was going to destroy him in the worst possible and humiliating way to show how much of a man he was. Was he unchosen? (Ezekiel 28)

I don't believe that every last thing in life is connected with whether or not one is saved. But as you know, no one could be "born again" during OT times, because Christ had yet to come.

 

[Going Merry]

I don't believe that every last thing in life is connected with whether or not one is saved. But as you know, no one could be "born again" during OT times, because Christ had yet to come.

God is unchanging though, and I believe in God according to his scriptures in the OT. The NT is the interpretations of the OT by the apostles that were also inspired by God (and is why i hold their sayings as high as the scriptures). It shows many times of people being with God but because of iniquity or being deceived by people somehow they were judged.

If you agree that all saints names are in the book of life - when Jesus mentions blotting out their name out of the book of life in the book of revelations, isn't that the same as becoming 'unchosen'? I believe with my whole heart if I live worldly God will destroy me. Despite my own heart believing 100% in God without any doubt or question.

I hold the interpretation however to the predestination topic that Jesus has chosen all people to be saved in Christ Jesus. So there is no difference, all should repent, deny themselves and believe in the gospel for salvation. All people can be saved. Predestination is honestly not even self assuring. How does simply acknowledging that doctrine prove you are predestined? It can't.. really if that doctrine is true then even if you believe in that doctrine you should have no reassurance from knowing it. I actually find a lot of discomfort in it.

 

[Albion]

God is unchanging though, and I believe in God according to his scriptures in the OT.

Agreed.

It shows many times of people being with God but because of iniquity or being deceived by people somehow they were judged.

Right. Just as I commented before.

If you agree that all saints names are in the book of life - when Jesus mentions blotting out their name out of the book of life in the book of revelations, isn't that the same as becoming 'unchosen'?

I don't think so.

I hold the interpretation however to the predestination topic that Jesus has chosen all people to be saved in Christ Jesus.

That's one view, but does it not really negate the meaning?

So there is no difference, all should repent, deny themselves and believe in the gospel for salvation.

Yes. All should, predestination or not.

Predestination is honestly not even self assuring. How does simply acknowledging that doctrine prove you are predestined? It can't

No, it can't, but neither do the freewill folks have any certainty that they will be saved. There are always one or two things hanging over their heads--either the possibility of falling away later OR committing a sin just before death and then....eternal separation from God.

For me, that's a much gloomier theology to live with all one's life than to think that God has all things in his hands.

 

[fhansen]

Agreed.


Right. Just as I commented before.


I don't think so.



That's one view, but does it not really negate the meaning?



Yes. All should, predestination or not.



No, it can't, but neither do the freewill folks have any certainty that they will be saved. There are always one or two things hanging over their heads--either the possibility of falling away later OR committing a sin just before death and then....eternal separation from God.

For me, that's a much gloomier theology to live with all one's life than to think that God has all things in his hands.

How is that theology any less gloomy if we can't know for sure which way we're predestined to?

 

[Albion]

How is that theology any less gloomy if we can't know for sure which way we're predestined to?

God's in control. We are not constantly wondering if we've shmoozed him sufficiently in order to guarantee our salvation or if we'll do just the right thing at just the right time.

 

[squint]

God's in control. We are not constantly wondering if we've shmoozed him sufficiently in order to guarantee our salvation or if we'll do just the right thing at just the right time.

I'd like to give you a small applause for that A.

 

[Foghorn]

If they failed to keep the faith after being born again, then they become 'unchosen' after being chosen?

If someone is born again, they wont fail. God cannot fail and believers are held by God's power.

 

[fhansen]

God's in control. We are not constantly wondering if we've shmoozed him sufficiently in order to guarantee our salvation or if we'll do just the right thing at just the right time.

OK, we just have to wonder if He flips a coin and we end up in hell rather than heaven?

 

[Albion]

OK, we just have to wonder if He flips a coin and we end up in hell rather than heaven?

I'd never wonder that. One of the underlying assumptions (we may say it that way although it's well-supported by Scripture) of Predestination is that God is sovereign, in charge, and orders all things according to his superior wisdom. Wondering if he's fickle or does anything by chance is the opposite perspective.

 

[squint]

OK, we just have to wonder if He flips a coin and we end up in hell rather than heaven?

The 'freewill' position tries to exonerate God from these matters by giving men 'a chance' based on same. Same gamble. Just a different player.

The flaw in that theory was pointed out to me decades ago when applying the age of accountability factor, meaning that if salvation was guaranteed to children prior to such an age, then their deaths prior to whatever age that was was good, as it was a 100% guarantee of salvation rather than the vastly diminished 'chances' of them making the 'right' decisions at a certain age.

Good point says I.

s

 

[fhansen]

I'd never wonder that. One of the underlying assumptions (we may say it that way although it's well-supported by Scripture) of Predestination is that God is sovereign, in charge, and orders all things according to his superior wisdom. Wondering if he's fickle or does anything by chance is the opposite perspective.

OK, it's just that, if He gives no allowance for our will being involved, the whole thing seems like a cosmic joke. Even being made in His image would still mean we have absolutely no way to identify with Him, no way to relate. If, OTOH, He judges according to what we do with what we're given as per the Parable of the Talents and Matt 25:31-46, then we're dealing with a God of reason and justice, one who rewards us not for schmoozing, but for going along with His plan. The New Covenant is not a covenant wherein God overlooks justice-rather it's a covenant where God helps man to be just, to the extent we're willing to answer His call. He didn't make man to be unjust-He'd be unjust if that were the case-He simply desires us to learn what A&E apparently didn't yet know-that man can't be just apart from God.

 

[Albion]

OK, it's just that, if He gives no allowance for our will being involved, the whole thing seems like a cosmic joke.

But remember, it's only the matter of one's eternal destination that's under consideration. Everything else in life remains the same as for freewill folks. Predestination isn't Fatalism, i.e. making us robots.

Even being made in His image would still mean we have absolutely no way to identify with Him, no way to relate.

Sure, we do.

If, OTOH, He judges according to what we do with what we're given as per the Parable of the Talents and Matt 25:31-46, then we're dealing with a God of reason and justice, one who rewards us not for schmoozing, but for going along with His plan. The New Covenant is not a covenant wherein God overlooks justice-rather it's a covenant where God helps man to be just, to the extent we're willing to answer His call. He didn't make man to be unjust-He'd be unjust if that were the case-He simply desires us to learn what A&E apparently didn't yet know-that man can't be just apart from God.

Most of that is the same. The one who is chosen doesn't automatically become a superman; he still has to grow in grace, respond to the moral law, and all that. It's just that he has been given the grace to do it. For that matter, those who are NOT among the Elect are also expected to do what is right rather than that which is wrong.

 

[squint]

OK, it's just that, if He gives no allowance for our will being involved, the whole thing seems like a cosmic joke. Even being made in His image would still mean we have absolutely no way to identify with Him, no way to relate. If, OTOH, He judges according to what we do with what we're given as per the Parable of the Talents and Matt 25:31-46, then we're dealing with a God of reason and justice, one who rewards us not for schmoozing, but for going along with His plan. The New Covenant is not a covenant wherein God overlooks justice-rather it's a covenant where God helps man to be just, to the extent we're willing to answer His call. He didn't make man to be unjust-He'd be unjust if that were the case-He simply desires us to learn what A&E apparently didn't yet know-that man can't be just apart from God.

If God exposed us all to disobedience in order to demonstrate to us, His children, DIVINE MERCY and HIS GRACE, there is no fault upon Him for doing so and that is NOT a 'cosmic' joke. These are very real eternal tangible matters as well as the HOPE instilled within us in the process.

Any good gardener knows that a certain amount of fertilizer is required for seed to grow. God is actually pretty Bright on these things I heard.

s

 

[fhansen]

If God exposed us all to disobedience in order to demonstrate to us, His children, DIVINE MERCY and HIS GRACE, there is no fault upon Him for doing so and that is NOT a 'cosmic' joke. These are very real eternal tangible matters as well as the HOPE instilled within us in the process.

Any good gardener knows that a certain amount of fertilizer is required for seed to grow. God is actually pretty Bright on these things I heard.

s

Alright, what does "exposed us all to disobedience" mean? It can't mean that He made us disobedient -disobedient of His own will-that would be a contradiction. And what would be so merciful about creating all humans to be deserving of hell-so that He can, uh, send them to hell, to eternal torment, and then say, 'gee aren't I merciful; I decided to elect some to heaven even though I made all deserving of hell'.

 

[squint]

Alright, what does "exposed us all to disobedience" mean? It can't mean that He made us disobedient -disobedient of His own will-that would be a contradiction.

There is a certain fantasy in freewill circles that if God makes, uses and deploys evil, then that makes Him so.

That is not the case. God can make any 'thing' and not be THAT THING that He makes. And He can do so for HIS Purposes:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Not man, GOD did this.

And we were LIKEWISE bound as Paul shows here:

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

For what purpose?

MERCY.

We who believe in this present life have been DRAGGED into HIS LIGHT in PREDESTINED fashions.

And what would be so merciful about creating all humans to be deserving of hell-so that He can, uh, send them to hell, to eternal torment, and then say, 'gee aren't I merciful; I decided to elect some to heaven even though I made all deserving of hell'.

We will see differently on this matter, but it is not an allowed discussion here, so I'll leave it with the statement that NO vessel of HONOR can be damned, period. And that every vessel of DISHONOR will be damned and discarded according to THE SCRIPTURES. Identity of same notwithstanding.

If you are predestined to see, God will show YOU how the pieces work and you will see it's NOT a problem.

s

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=fhansen;OK, it's just that, if He gives no allowance for our will being involved, the whole thing seems like a cosmic joke.

How can you have that attitude? He created you & your will. Aren't you thankful?

Even being made in His image would still mean we have absolutely no way to identify with Him, no way to relate.

Whoa! Hold on there. Consider being made in His image means we have sentience & compassion. Not just an ego with fists & feet.

If, OTOH, He judges according to what we do with what we're given as per the Parable of the Talents and Matt 25:31-46, then we're dealing with a God of reason and justice, one who rewards us not for schmoozing, but for going along with His plan.

That's just the problem. Salvation is not a reward for performance, it is a gift of undeserved mercy. When you're saved, you're saved. That means you are no longer in danger of drowning. You might do a bunch of works that will burn, but you will be safe.

The New Covenant is not a covenant wherein God overlooks justice-rather it's a covenant where God helps man to be just, to the extent we're willing to answer His call.

You have been heavily burdened.

He didn't make man to be unjust-He'd be unjust if that were the case-He simply desires us to learn what A&E apparently didn't yet know-that man can't be just apart from God.

Not all men are made the same.

 

[dollarsbill]

If they failed to keep the faith after being born again, then they become 'unchosen' after being chosen?

Those who don't endure to the end simply prove they are not 'chosen'.